Speak in Tongues - essential :

[Foxfyre]

I will say that it is interesting to me that with the entire holiness movements of the early 21st Century that all of a sudden the Holy Spirit, BAM decides to insert Himself into lives again in a big way.

I think the Holy Spirit has been inserting Himself the whole way, including the gift of tongues.

But one cannot read I Corinthians 12 without understanding that Paul instructed us that speaking in tongues, however wonderful gift that is, it is not required to be part of the Body any more than being a prophet or teacher or minister or pastor or doctor is required to be part of the Body.

And that passage was immediately followed by Chapter 13 explaining what Christian love is.

Included in that he writes:

. . .Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. . .​

Which I think is clearly intended to illustrate that as important as prophecies, knowledge, and speaking is, none are complete. We see everything through a glass darkly and all that. But when we meet Him face to face, then we will know all.

(And I think we all are going to be really surprised at how much we got wrong however well intentioned it was. )

 

[ToBeLoved]

I think the Holy Spirit has been inserting Himself the whole way, including the gift of tongues.

But one cannot read I Corinthians 12 without understanding that Paul instructed us that speaking in tongues, however wonderful gift that is, it is not required to be part of the Body any more than being a prophet or teacher or minister or pastor or doctor is required to be part of the Body.

And that passage was immediately followed by Chapter 13 explaining what Christian love is.

Included in that he writes:

. . .Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. . .​

Which I think is clearly intended to illustrate that as important as prophecies, knowledge, and speaking is, none are complete. We see everything through a glass darkly and all that. But when we meet Him face to face, then we will know all.

(And I think we all are going to be really surprised at how much we got wrong however well intentioned it was. )

I'm talking about the entire church history from about 90 AD through 1900's AD.
Where are all the Holy Spirit scenario's?

 

[Anto9us]

I will say that it is interesting to me that with the entire holiness movements of the early 21st Century that all of a sudden the Holy Spirit, BAM decides to insert Himself into lives again in a big way.

Yeah. early 1900's - 20th century...

But this got me thinking -- in the OT, a few people had the Holy Ghost fall on them -- Samson, Jepthah, Gideon...

But there is no doubt that, at Pentecost -- the Holy Ghost "decided to insert Himself in a big way" -- and of course there were scoffers then also.

The Holy Ghost goes BAM whenever He wants to...
There will be a BIG BAM someday and tongues will cease

 

[Anto9us]

I'm talking about the entire church history from about 90 AD through 1900's AD.
Where are all the Holy Spirit scenario's?

Maybe some are in that book that a poster gave a picture of -- but it seemed kind of PRICEY when I looked it up -- I was once in a Mardel's and saw all 8 volumes of Schaff's HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH; the whole set, I could have walked out with it...

I drooled, but I didn't have a hunnerd bucks to spare

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yeah. early 1900's - 20th century...

But this got me thinking -- in the OT, a few people had the Holy Ghost fall on them -- Samson, Jepthah, Gideon...

But there is no doubt that, at Pentecost -- the Holy Ghost "decided to insert Himself in a big way" -- and of course there were scoffers then also.

The Holy Ghost goes BAM whenever He wants to...
There will be a BIG BAM someday and tongues will cease

So your take is the Holy Spirit went BAM 2,000 years ago. Then went quiet. Then went BAM again 1800 years later.

Now granted God can do as He likes, but it seems a little fishy to me. All of a sudden there is every revival that could ever be thought of.

Interesting .....

 

[ToBeLoved]

Maybe some are in that book that a poster gave a picture of -- but it seemed kind of PRICEY when I looked it up -- I was once in a Mardel's and saw all 8 volumes of Schaff's HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH; the whole set, I could have walked out with it...

I drooled, but I didn't have a hunnerd bucks to spare

I wasn't talking about books. I was talking about years and impact.

Why did the Holy Spirit chill between the apostles death and the 21st Century?

 

[Foxfyre]

I'm talking about the entire church history from about 90 AD through 1900's AD.
Where are all the Holy Spirit scenario's?

I certainly think we can look at some of the testimony down through the ages and conclude it to be very likely the Holy Spirit was speaking/acting through such great leaders of the ancient church as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, the great church leaders of the Reformation? I believe with great certainty that there have been many spirit led Christian leaders in American history from the very beginning. Who can read some of the words of the late great Peter Marshall or his daughter, Catherine or C.S. Lewis without a sense of God's presence within them?

There are so many, I am reluctant to list any out of fear that it will appear I am favoring some over others.

 

[swordsman1]

My husband and I listened to them together on a 4 hour trip. Even his mouth flew open a number of times at the outrageous fabrications. Go to a Christian bookstore sometime and pick up John MacArthur's commentary on 1 Corinthians 14 and read it. That ridiculous heresy about the singular and plural tongue(s) came straight from Merrill Unger. Supposedly any time Paul used the singular form of "tongue" that was demonic tongues. And any time Paul used the plural form of "tongues" it was the real tongues from the Holy Spirit. The problem is when he got to a verse using the singular form of tongue (demonic) where we needed to limit them to 2 or 3 and they were to be interpreted, he did not make any comment at all (maybe we wouldn't be able to see his theory didn't make any sense!) ROFL!

27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret.

Don't forget, the singular form is supposedly demonic.

MacArthur is no specialist on cessationism. Probably less that 1% of the material he produces is to do with cessationism or the false teachings of the charismatic/pentecostal movement.

He has since corrected that mistake from his 1984 commentary. He dropped that theory in his recent book Strange Fire where he now correctly notes that 1 Cor 14:2 is referring to unrecognised tongues spoken in the congregation, not a universal declaration about tongues as charismatics suppose when they take that verse out of context.

 

[swordsman1]

but of course, commentary by the likes of MacArthur and Thomas can certainly make you either laugh or cry.

I can certainly see why Thomas's material would make you cry seeing as you are unable to refute any of it, settling on pouring scorn on him instead.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I certainly think we can look at some of the testimony down through the ages and conclude it to be very likely the Holy Spirit was speaking/acting through such great leaders of the ancient church as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, the great church leaders of the Reformation? I believe with great certainty that there have been many spirit led Christian leaders in American history from the very beginning. Who can read some of the words of the late great Peter Marshall or his daughter, Catherine or C.S. Lewis without a sense of God's presence within them?

There are so many, I am reluctant to list any out of fear that it will appear I am favoring some over others.

We are missing each other on the point here, so let's just let it go.

You be blessed.

 

[swordsman1]

But the major outpourings are spring and fall, the early and latter rain. These are at the beginning of the Church and just before Christ returns for the harvest.

The latter rain teaching is a false interpretation of scripture. Charismatics latched onto the term to try give legitimacy to the charismatic movement which they regard as a new outpouring of the Holy Spirit. But that term has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. It was only used as a metaphor for people to wait patiently for the Return of Christ just as farmers were said to wait patiently for the Autumn rains. Rain had never been used as a metaphor for the Holy Spirit. Wind perhaps, but never rain.

 

[Anto9us]

Why did the Holy Spirit chill between the apostles death and the 21st Century?

It is YOUR claim that The Holy Spirit did indeed "chill" -- so justify it -- I have posted earlier that the Holy Spirit 'falling on people' has been sporadic from OT times through today

This deal that the Hagion Pneuma "chilled" is just a Cessationist RED HERRING, more anti-tongues HOOEY

He never "chilled" -- He did what He wanted to -- and still does.

 

[swordsman1]

Can you not see the comparison between a contemporary cessationist with those of Paul's day who he deemed to be 'ignorant' or 'uninitiated' into the things of the Spirit, they are both one and same creature.

That is not what you said. You said that the congregations at Corinth had cessationist visitors! Changing your tune to save yourself the embarrassment of making such a basic schoolboy error perhaps?

And cessationists are very well versed in the things of the Spirit as described in scripture. Which is why we are keen to refute the false teachings of charismatics and pentecostals who insult the Holy Spirit by attributing to Him things which are not of Him.

So you checked "50 Bible translations" just as most newbies would do if they are unfamiliar with commentaries; it's too bad that you never considered looking into the footnotes of the various Bibles that you claimed to have checked - impressive, not!

Tell me, after all your interactions on the various issues around 1 Cor 12, 13 & 14 with myself and others, are you maybe (hopefully) the only person who has never noticed the absolute incredible amount of discussion by the various commentators and translators regarding Paul's use of the Greek words pneumatikon and charisma, where the various translations will openly admit that our English term 'spiritual gift' or 'gift' is at best an approximation.

Over the years when I have come across a commentary on First Corinthians that I am unfamiliar with, I will immediately go to 1 Cor 12:1 to see what the commentator has to say regarding Paul's use of pneumatikon, if he glosses over or ignores this important element within Paul's theology I will immediately put it back on the shelf as a book not worth considering. How can you be so ignorant of something that has been discussed by commentators for centuries, let alone within with the myriad of threads on this forum - surely you are just acting the goat!

As to our English term 'spiritual gift' it does not appear within the Scriptures, for that matter, nor is the Latin/English term 'miracle' found in the Scriptures.

So charisma does not means gift? Not only have all the Bible versions got their translations wrong in 1 Cor 12:31 but all the lexicons have got it wrong as well, including your favourite BDAG.

BDAG Lexicon
χάρισμα, ατος, τό (χαρίζομαι) that which is freely and graciously given, favor bestowed, gift
...
ⓑ of special gifts of a non-material sort, bestowed through God’s generosity on individual Christians 1 Pt 4:10; 1 Cl 38:1. Of the gift for carrying out special tasks, mediated by the laying on of hands 1 Ti 4:14; 2 Ti 1:6. Of the power to be continent in sexual matters 1 Cor 7:7. Of spiritual gifts in a special sense (Just., D. 82, 1 and Iren. 5, 6, 1 [Harv. II 334, 2] προφητικὰ χ.; Orig., C. Cels. 3, 46, 12; Hippol., Ref. 8, 19, 2) Ro 12:6; 1 Cor 12:4, 9, 28, 30,31.​

Guess you'll be writing to messrs Bauer, Danker, Arnt and Gingrich as well then to inform them of their error, as well as all the bible translation committees? You will be busy.

 

[swordsman1]

As with the dark periods during the Old Testament, I tend to suspect that the Father has always kept a remnant of his people who would walk in the Spirit during the Dark Ages of the Church, though such people would have done so to their peril as Rome would have made sure that they paid with their lives.

I asked you following question before but you never answered. Where is your evidence that the Roman Catholic church engaged in a mass persecution of tongues speakers? Show us the documented proof. Or is this another thing you just made up?

Tongues ceased because God withdrew the gift (just as Paul prophesied would happen) not because tongues speakers were persecuted.

 

[swordsman1]

The word in Greek for cease is Pauo, which means paused, not stopped.

That's wrong I'm afraid.

BDAG Lexicon
παύω
① to cause someth. to stop or keep someth. from happening, stop, cause to stop, quiet, relieve, act. ...
② to cease doing someth., stop (oneself), cease, mid. ... Of speaking in tongues, which will come to an end 1 Cor 13:8.​

No mention of pausing there. Paul said tongues would cease (pauo) in 1 Cor 13:8, and cease they did.

 

[Anto9us]

Rain had never been used as a metaphor for the Holy Spirit.

Uber-Crock and Poppy-[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]!

You cannot be serious!

Was it WIND that was POURED OUT as Joel prophesied that Peter preached on in the first sermon of the Church?

No, it was water - rain - poured out -- early and latter rain is a valid metaphor for Holy Spirit and everyone knows it but bull-headed Cessationists

 

[Anto9us]

Transliteration
pauō
Pronunciation
pau'-ō cease (12x), leave (2x), refrain (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to make to cease or desist
   
   
2. to restrain a thing or person from something
   
   
3. to cease, to leave off
   
   
4. have got release from sin
   
   1. no longer stirred by its incitements and seductions
      

Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
παύω paúō, pow'-o; a primary verb ("pause"); to stop (transitively or intransitively), i.e. restrain, quit, desist, come to an end:—cease, leave, refrain.

 

[swordsman1]

Uber-Crock and Poppy-[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]!

You cannot be serious!

Was it WIND that was POURED OUT as Joel prophesied that Peter preached on in the first sermon of the Church?

No, it was water - rain - poured out -- early and latter rain is a valid metaphor for Holy Spirit and everyone knows it but bull-headed Cessationists

The imagery in Acts 2 is not of rain. It speaks of the Holy Spirit being poured out and filling the disciples. You know like water being poured from a jug and filling a cup.

Show me where the Holy Spirit is likened to rain.

 

[1stcenturylady]

MacArthur is no specialist on cessationism. Probably less that 1% of the material he produces is to do with cessationism or the false teachings of the charismatic/pentecostal movement.

He has since corrected that mistake from his 1984 commentary. He dropped that theory in his recent book Strange Fire where he now correctly notes that 1 Cor 14:2 is referring to unrecognised tongues spoken in the congregation, not a universal declaration about tongues as charismatics suppose when they take that verse out of context.

The vileness of that book, Strange Fire, gave me the shivers so I only got through up to 3 pages, if that. So what did he mean by 1 Corinthians 14:2? If someone is speaking in unrecognized tongues what are they speaking. Who is the author? His commentary still says the same hogwash it's always said.

But I see you are a fan, so that explains a lot.

 

[1stcenturylady]

That's wrong I'm afraid.

BDAG Lexicon
παύω
① to cause someth. to stop or keep someth. from happening, stop, cause to stop, quiet, relieve, act. ...
② to cease doing someth., stop (oneself), cease, mid. ... Of speaking in tongues, which will come to an end 1 Cor 13:8.​

No mention of pausing there. Paul said tongues would cease (pauo) in 1 Cor 13:8, and cease they did.

Strongs 3973 a prim. verb ("pause"); to stop (trans, or intrans), i.e., restrain, quit, desist, come to an end; cease, leave, refrain.