Speak in Tongues - essential :

[1stcenturylady]

As with the dark periods during the Old Testament, I tend to suspect that the Father has always kept a remnant of his people who would walk in the Spirit during the Dark Ages of the Church, though such people would have done so to their peril as Rome would have made sure that the paid with their lives.

That was true with the Montanists and the Jansenists, but the Jansenists main problem with the pope was they wanted the word of God available for every peasant to read. That was punishable by death. Only the clergy were allowed to read, and then preach what they believed. But without the Spirit, you can just imagine...

 

[1stcenturylady]

No, but that is not the issue. You cannot argue that tongues never ceased...and then use as part of your argument that there weren't people worthy of receiving them. Either they ceased or they did not.

The word in Greek for cease is Pauo, which means paused, not stopped. I see it as there were times when no one on the face of the earth was worthy, but at least the word of God was preserved. We are in the time of the latter rain, AND we have the Word of God in abundance. We have no excuse.

 

[Anto9us]

Yes Biblicist, we know about "terms not found in Scripture"

Nor is the term TRINITY found in the Scriptures, I think it was Tertullian who first used Latin TRINITAS, and he "went Montanist" on us later in life.

So I have acquired NEW LABELS in this thread -- Trichotomist and Continuist -- but I am not a "stop and start Continuist"...

Yes I believe in Early and Latter Rains, but always some rain in between.
It's amazing to me how many side issues in this thread that 1stcenturylady and I agree on - she being Pentecostal and me Methodist - I do have Unger's BIBLE HANDBOOK, 1stcenturylady, now curious about it, never got that much into it

Oh, Biblicist, Baylor was great -- lunch every day in a house just off campus rented by 5 guys, 2 pairs of brothers and a really good guitar player -- people brought peanut butter, sandwich meat, soup; I would say they were INFORMAL AGAPES every day at lunch

One day PHIL KEAGGY AND LOVE SONG played at Miller Chapel 2 blocks away, we helped 'em set up equipment, packed it away at end of concert, then Keaggy just sat there in a pew across from me for 45 minutes with an accoustic guitar -- I didn't know such things could be done with a guitar

but the hottest prayer meetings were at the garage apartment shared by the two girls who laid hands on me in their car, probably most time on my knees than any time of my life, my wife and I went their super-often

Okay, Albion -- let's get technical -- since rain started falling on the earth; has that been CONTINUAL or INTERMITTENT?

Out in West Texas there are places they say haven't got rain since it rained for 40 days and 40 nights; they got an inch-and-a-quarter at that time.

Maybe rain itself will CEASE when that which is PERFECT has come, maybe we will go back to a mist coming up from the ground and watering the face of the earth, I am not dogmatic about eschatolgy...

 

[Albion]

The word in Greek for cease is Pauo, which means paused, not stopped. I see it as there were times when no one on the face of the earth was worthy, but at least the word of God was preserved. We are in the time of the latter rain, AND we have the Word of God in abundance. We have no excuse.

So your position is that they ceased but then started up again. Why, do you think, the typical continuationist becomes outraged if a Christian who is not a Pentecostal suggests the same idea as a possibility? And why is it that Pentecostals or Continuationists most often insist that there could not have been any cessation (or pause) or else the Bible would be proven wrong (which would be impossible)?

 

[1stcenturylady]

So your position is that they ceased but then started up again. Why, do you think, the typical continuationist becomes outraged if a Christian who is not a Pentecostal suggests the same idea as a possibility? And why is it that Pentecostals or Continuationists most often insist that there could not have been any cessation (or pause) or else the Bible would be proven wrong (which would be impossible)?

Some put more emphasis on the gift than the giver. Did the Holy Spirit cease to exist? It is up to Him to give to each true follower of Christ who loves his neighbor as himself. You obviously know church history, so when did the love go, and brutality take its place?

 

[Albion]

Some put more emphasis on the gift than the giver. Did the Holy Spirit cease to exist? It is up to Him to give to each true follower of Christ who loves his neighbor as himself. You obviously know church history, so when did the love go, and brutality take its place?

But again, the issue is whether or not tongues ceased. We can talk all around the issue, but this is the issue.

 

[Anto9us]

When the bird came in to Noah with an olive branch, it had STOPPED raining, or it had PAUSED raining...

but it's just a matter of semantics --

rain is a continual possibility, has been ever since it started.

Neither actual rain nor outpouring of the Holy Ghost has EVER "ceased" in the sense Cessationists mean it --

it's not raining here at the moment...

Has Rain CEASED?

Has Rain PASSED AWAY?

Is Rain NEVER COMIN'?

 

[Foxfyre]

Absolutely !!!

Receive the Holy Ghost and the immediate outward evidence speaking in tongues as the spirit gives direct undefileable contact with GOD !

Just as in the beginning ..Acts 2v4.. included Mary the mother of Jesus....

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (MUST)

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth....according to the word, to pray in the Spirit :

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


the first 2 is your part...the third is Gods seal of approval !

Holy Ghost + speaking in tongues .. no tongues no Spirit..

Ro 8:9 .............Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Not to be confused with the demonstration IN THE CHURCH (max 3) to show you are who you say you are !!
when you pray..go to your closet, private place and pray...


confess Jesus Christ..his way...

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

package deal

obtain the Grace,Mercy and Faith that Jesus Christ has made avaliable to whomsoever will..

or have the adversaries religious confusion..just words no power !

I believe in the gift of speaking in tongues and for those who have it, it is a wonderful thing. I know too many devout Christians who love the Lord and serve him admirably who do not have the gift to believe that it is essential.

The Apostle Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 12:

12Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized by13 Or with; or in one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.

15Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body. . .

27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.

29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues#30 Or other languages? Do all interpret? 31Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.​

This passage was followed by the most wonderful Chapter 13 describing what Christian love is.

 

[Anto9us]

The analogy, or METAPHOR -- of rain contrasted to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit -- is something which I submit is evident in the Bible.

In this thread, there has been alleged that Paul saying "if I speak in the tongues of men and of angels" was HYPERBOLE.

I think there is a confusion between the HYPERBOLIC and the HYPOTHETICAL.

If I say I may go get a hamburger later today, that is HYPOTHETICAL.

If I say I am going to eat three entire buffaloe, that is HYPERBOLE.

Paul spoke hypothetically in the Corinthians passage, but not hyperbolically

 

[Albion]

Has Rain CEASED?

Has Rain PASSED AWAY?

Is Rain NEVER COMIN'?

You want us to consider the absence of X for centuries, even a millennium, to be the equivalent of the time between rains. Is that it? You want us to believe that tongues and the other gifts experienced in the early church vanished from church life until recent times and this has no more consequence than an interval between rain storms?

Are you not, with that argument, making the timing all important and the gift, with its place in church life, be not particularly important? I mean, why would tongues matter, if a stray person here or there experienced this but it didn't have any of the impact or consequences that tongues, as described in the New Testament, did?

 

[Anto9us]

Don't put the word "absence" in my mouth, Albion, please.

It is one thing to say there has been "an absence of rain for three days".

It is quite another thing to say that "rain, as a phenomenon, has ceased".

Do you GET IT?


Rarity and Absence -- no same-same.

"Absence of tongues" is just part of the legend in your own mind -- it is not reality

 

[Albion]

Don't put the word "absence" in my mouth, Albion, please.

That is what "cease" necessitates. If cessation is not the issue, there should be none of the opposition to "cessationists" and that word ought not be pinned on us.

 

[Foxfyre]

You want us to consider the absence of X for centuries, even a millennium, to be the equivalent of the time between rains. Is that it? You want us to believe that tongues and the other gifts experienced in the early church vanished from church life until recent times and this has no more consequence than an interval between rain storms?

Are you not, with that argument, making the timing all important and the gift, with its place in church life, be not particularly important? I mean, why would tongues matter, if a stray person here or there experienced this but it didn't have any of the impact or consequences that tongues, as described in the New Testament, did?

But did it vanish?

This book is quite fascinating in content and context describing that the manifestation of speaking in tongues was much more prevalent in the Middle Ages than some might think:

 

[Albion]

Does it maintain that tongues remained a constant feature of church life? That is an essential of the point made by anyone who insists that "tongues cannot cease--the Bible says so."

 

[Anto9us]

anyone who insists that "tongues cannot cease--the Bible says so."

Well, that is NOT ME, I don't "insist that they won't cease" -- but rather that they will cease when TO TELEION has come -- just like the Bible says.

 

[Albion]

Well, that is NOT ME, I don't "insist that they won't cease" -- but rather that they will cease when TO TELEION has come -- just like the Bible says.

Yes, I was assuming that point and not disputing it. However, it doesn't change a thing about the cessation or lack of same between the time of the Apostolic Church and today.

 

[Anto9us]

You continue to equate "cessation" with "rarity" smh

I really don't think Tongues was all so super-prevalent even in Paul's time, maybe in Corinth it was more prevalent than other places in the apostolic age, that's why it got written about there; maybe there was abuse and falsity even back then,

I'm sure it was; Tongues-affirmers in this thread have admitted that TODAY there can be falsity, abuse, and counterfeiting of the charismaton -- that doesn't mean the phenomenon itself is over with.

 

[1stcenturylady]

But again, the issue is whether or not tongues ceased. We can talk all around the issue, but this is the issue.

I don't know how better to say what I believe. Why don't you tell me why tongues pausing during a time of spiritual darkness in most people except a few matters to you. To me it is the perfect scriptural picture of the early and latter rain.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Some put more emphasis on the gift than the giver. Did the Holy Spirit cease to exist? It is up to Him to give to each true follower of Christ who loves his neighbor as himself. You obviously know church history, so when did the love go, and brutality take its place?

I will say that it is interesting to me that with the entire holiness movements of the early 21st Century that all of a sudden the Holy Spirit, BAM decides to insert Himself into lives again in a big way.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I will say that it is interesting to me that with the entire holiness movements of the early 21st Century that all of a sudden the Holy Spirit, BAM decides to insert Himself into lives again in a big way.

Right (early 20th Century)