Speak in Tongues - essential :

[Ron Gurley]

RESPONSE TO POST #510:

Acts of the Apostles

Acts 2:8-11 (NASB)
“And how is it that we each hear them in our own "language" to which we were born?
“Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
2:11 (NASB)...Pentecost: The birthday of the "CHURCH" and the PERMANENT coming of God the Holy Spirit
Cretans and Arabs—we hear them in our own "tongues" speaking of the mighty deeds of God.”

tongues...Greek 1100...glōssa...II.a tongue
A.the "language" or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations

 

[Albion]

Okay, considering that you have not offered any Biblical evidence for your particular worldview

Just a minute. Tongues did cease. That's a fact of history. Pentecostal Christians who insist that that which ceased to be part of church life for over a thousand years really didn't cease but God blinded everyone to their existence (for some unknown reason) or that loads of Christians did speak in tongues (but in hiding and were never found out) or similar stretches of the imagination are the ones who have something to prove. Simply to say that the meaningless sounds that some people put on these days must be genuine tongues as existed in antiquity is a non-starter.

 

[Biblicist]

RESPONSE TO POST #510:

Acts of the Apostles

Acts 2:8-11 (NASB)
“And how is it that we each hear them in our own "language" to which we were born?
“Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
2:11 (NASB)...Pentecost: The birthday of the "CHURCH" and the PERMANENT coming of God the Holy Spirit
Cretans and Arabs—we hear them in our own "tongues" speaking of the mighty deeds of God.”

tongues...Greek 1100...glōssa...II.a tongue
A.the "language" or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations

Yep, I fully agree! But don't forget, Acts 2 is speaking of the Day of Pentecost which is about the giving of the Holy Spirit to the new children of God. You need to go to 1 Cor 14 where Paul goes into a fair amount of detail to explain that when we pray in the Spirit (tongues) that they will always be given within inarticulate tongues - this should not be hard to grasp, it is something that is often taught in Sunday school programs.

 

[1stcenturylady]

RESPONSE TO POST #510:

Acts of the Apostles

Acts 2:8-11 (NASB)
“And how is it that we each hear them in our own "language" to which we were born?
“Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
2:11 (NASB)...Pentecost: The birthday of the "CHURCH" and the PERMANENT coming of God the Holy Spirit
Cretans and Arabs—we hear them in our own "tongues" speaking of the mighty deeds of God.”

tongues...Greek 1100...glōssa...II.a tongue
A.the "language" or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations

Do you believe God can create languages that only God can understand? That is what 1 Corinthians 14:2 is talking about. Even though only God can understand the tongues doesn't disqualify them as being legitimate languages.

 

[Biblicist]

Just a minute. Tongues did cease. That's a fact of history. Pentecostal Christians who insist that that which ceased to be part of church life for over a thousand years really didn't cease but God blinded everyone to their existence (for some unknown reason) or that loads of Christians did speak in tongues (but in hiding and were never found out) or similar stretches of the imagination are the ones who have something to prove. Simply to say that the meaningless sounds that some people put on these days must be genuine tongues as existed in antiquity is a non-starter.

Your quite right, well at least the ability of the broader Christian community to pray in the Spirit was certainly curtailed by Rome for centuries, where anyone who went against their demands were regularly put to the stake. For that matter, it seems that Justification by Faith was lost to the majority of the Church for about a 1000 years as well and Rome also treated anyone who believed this core doctrine exactly the same way.

Edit: I would still like to see if anyone can show where Paul or any other individual in the New Testament has ever preached the Gospel or given a message through the Holy Spirit through tongues in a known human language.

Of course if this were possible then such a powerful sign would be enough to probably convert the entire world within a decade or two; but what do we have to evidence this - absolutely nothing.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Just a minute. Tongues did cease. That's a fact of history. Pentecostal Christians who insist that that which ceased to be part of church life for over a thousand years really didn't cease but God blinded everyone to their existence (for some unknown reason) or that loads of Christians did speak in tongues (but in hiding and were never found out) or similar stretches of the imagination are the ones who have something to prove. Simply to say that the meaningless sounds that some people put on these days must be genuine tongues as existed in antiquity is a non-starter.

1 Samuel 3:1 Now the boy Samuel ministered to the Lord before Eli. And the word of the Lord was rare in those days; there was no widespread revelation.

Dry spells are common in a dead church, where only a remnant thread is still alive. Joel 2 which started to be fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost spoke of the early and latter rain. That is not only applicable to the two comings of Christ, but outpourings of His Spirit. Look to the word of God for your foundational beliefs, not the church when it was dried up.

 

[Biblicist]

Do you believe . . .

Are you suggesting that God's ways are maybe above our ways, that must put a shudder through many a hardcore-cessationist.

 

[Ron Gurley]

"praying in the Spirit" is NOT the same as the temporary SIGN gifts of "tongues" and "interpretation of tongues".

Romans 8:26 (ALL NASB)[ Our Victory in Christ ]
In the same way (God) the (Holy) Spirit also helps our weakness;
for we do not know how to pray as we should,
but the Spirit Himself INTERCEDES for us with groanings too deep for words;

1 Corinthians 14:15
What is the outcome then?
I will pray WITH the spirit and I will pray WITH the mind also;
I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

Ephesians 6:18
With all prayer and petition pray at all times IN the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints,

Jude 1:20
But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying IN the Holy Spirit,

 

[Biblicist]

"praying in the Spirit" is NOT the same as the temporary SIGN gifts of "tongues" and "interpretation of tongues".

Temporary . . . where does the Bible say that the Manifestations of the Spirit and that our ability to pray in the Spirit as supposed to be temporary; other than with temporary meaning with the Eschaton where the Lord returns with his Kingdom.

Romans 8:26 (ALL NASB)[ Our Victory in Christ ]
In the same way (God) the (Holy) Spirit also helps our weakness;
for we do not know how to pray as we should,
but the Spirit Himself INTERCEDES for us with groanings too deep for words;

1 Corinthians 14:15
What is the outcome then?
I will pray WITH the spirit and I will pray WITH the mind also;
I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

Ephesians 6:18
With all prayer and petition pray at all times IN the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints,

Jude 1:20
But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying IN the Holy Spirit,

Why have you posted Scriptures which speak of how we are to pray in the Spirit (tongues)?

 

[Albion]

Come on, folks. You are saying it, but you are trying to use softer language as though you cannot quite bring yourself to say it without equivocation.

Dry spells are common in a dead church, where only a remnant thread is still alive.

Go ahead and don't be afraid to say it. Tongues ceased. Call it a dry spell if need be, but there was a long time when this which was so important in the early church wasn't in evidence any longer.

Your quite right, well at least the ability of the broader Christian community to pray in the Spirit was certainly curtailed by Rome for centuries, where anyone who went against their demands were regularly put to the stake. For that matter, it seems that Justification by Faith was lost to the majority of the Church for about a 1000 years as well

Thank you.

 

[Biblicist]

Come on, folks. You are saying it, but you are trying to use softer language as though you cannot quite bring yourself to say it without equivocation.

Go ahead and don't be afraid to say it. Tongues ceased. Call it a dry spell if need be, but there was a long time when this which was so important in the early church wasn't in evidence any longer.

Thank you.

Okay, so it seems that you are maybe prepared to fly over to North Korea where you can stand in the middle of their main square and preach the Gospel; the outcome will undoubtedly be little different to how Rome treated anyone who differed from their carnal ways.

PS. Am I to presume that as you base your views regarding tongues on the Dark Age of the Church, where you feel this somehow justifies your view that tongues have ceased, that this means that you also reject the Doctrine of Justification by Faith?

 

[Bollweevil]

If this is the case then why do we not have any examples within the Scriptures where tongues has ever been used to communicate to others who do not speak our language, surely Paul would have discussed this idea if it were possible, but of course neither Paul nor any other Biblical writer gives this idea any credence.


This particular idea falls flat very quickly when we consider how the early Latin churchmen have made mention up until the 4th century how the Holy Spirit still works this way through various Believers.

"If this is the case then why do we not have any examples within the Scriptures where tongues has ever been used to communicate to others who do not speak our language, surely Paul would have discussed this idea if it were possible, but of course neither Paul nor any other Biblical writer gives this idea any credence."

We most definitely do, Acts.

Acts 2:1-8 2 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them. 5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language?


"This particular idea falls flat very quickly when we consider how the early Latin churchmen have made mention up until the 4th century how the Holy Spirit still works this way through various Believers."

1 Corinthians 13:8-10
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.

Simply observe what goes on in our world today, there are no miraculous gifts. There is the Holy Spirit that does dwell in God's people yet It's function is different from what it did in the apostles.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I will have to thrown in my bit here as well as this is really a bit of a desperate argument, tell me, do the members of the Godhead and the Angelic hosts maybe employ a bit of sign language?

Of course we only have to look at the various places within the Scriptures where the Biblical writers speak of what they heard being said in the heavens.

And, again, I would repeat myself that descriptions of such things are for our benefit. When the prophets received the "Word of the LORD", I suspect that if when/if/where there was an audible component it was in Hebrew because that was the language of the prophets. And when God deigned to grant visions, or heavenly experiences, the way in which God revealed these things was by means by which it was beneficial and somewhat comprehensible to those who received them.

That God spoke to Moses through a burning bush in the language which Moses could comprehend doesn't mean that this is what God speaks "day to day" up in glory.

This is akin to saying that God literally has arms or wings, after all Scripture describes God's arms, wings, etc; likewise it would be suggesting that the Almighty literally sits in a giant chair since Scripture speaks of God's throne.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

You people have to have lost your minds? Or - are you just being argumentative and hoping no one will call you on these ridiculous statements?

Are you so afraid of people who speak in tongues that you'll say anything in the world to try to undermine it's legitimacy?

"And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?”

"Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts." Psalm 148:2

"When the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Job 38:7

What were the angels shouting and singe - some kind of grunts or groans?

"The Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.” The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.” Then Satan answered the Lord, “Does Job fear God for nothing? Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face.” Then the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord." Job 1:7-12

I'll grant you that we don't know what language they were speaking. Almost undoubtedly it wasn't a known human language.

But obviously it was a language.

Maybe you'd like to accuse God and His angels of speaking "gibberish". And why not? You don't hesitate to accuse God's children.

Revelation of the things of heaven are for our benefit. The Prophet Isaiah experienced the glory of God and received vision of the holy seraphim described as having six wings--but Scripture specifically says angels are "ministering spirits"--form and shape, language, etc are all ways of communicating heavenly realities to limited, feeble human minds. God doesn't literally sit on a giant chair, to speak of God's throne is to speak of God's power, authority, and glory as ruler over all things; to speak of God having body parts is to speak by way of analogy; visionary experiences are for our benefit. Note that those who have visions of these things always record what is said in their language; the Prophets heard and recorded it in Hebrew, St. John on Patmos records what he hears in Greek. There's no indication of a special heavenly language.

An ancient, albeit somewhat obscure, ancient heresy is Audianism, named for Audius. Audius taught that the Divine Essence has definite shape or form, that God in His Divinity has a body. This is in contrast to historic orthodox Christian teaching that God is incomprehensible, ineffable, formless, invisible, "God is Spirit" Jesus says, and St. Paul says that God "dwells in inapproachable light" and that Jesus is the visible image of the "invisible God". God is not a human being, He does not have members, He does not have parts, He does not have anatomy, and so all anthropomorphic language must be understood in light of this, not as literal descriptions as though God literally has arms, or God literally has a throne up in the sky somewhere, or--in this case--that God has a voice box by which He communicates in the infinite glory through common, ordinary, human-like language.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

That is what you said VC - that I took issue with, and still do, and in the Job quote I put above - angels singing and shouting for joy has nothing whatsoever to do with human physiology, humans were not there yet - that was the point of the Job quote about "where you you when..."

And, again, we are talking about things which are said for human benefit, described in ways which are meaningful to the human mind and imagination.

I can't possibly comprehend what the glorious praises of the angels actually is like in the sublime mystery of the eternal glory. I can comprehend what singing is though, and by this can get the tiniest glimpse of these mysteries.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Biblicist]

"If this is the case then why do we not have any examples within the Scriptures where tongues has ever been used to communicate to others who do not speak our language, surely Paul would have discussed this idea if it were possible, but of course neither Paul nor any other Biblical writer gives this idea any credence."

We most definitely do, Acts.

The problem with the sole occurrence in Acts where the unregenerate were able to hear what was being said in tongues was that the 120 were speaking to the Father and not to the nearby crowd.

If the Holy Spirit had of directed his words to the crowd in a direct manner where they could understand what was happening, such as with an Evangelistic message, then they would have approached the 120 knowing what was going on, but what do we see, the nearby crowd having overheared what the Spirit was saying to the Father still left them totally confused as to what was happening; from what we can deduce, it appears that the Holy Spirit may have never even used the name Jesus, if he did then the crowd would have realised what was happening.

"This particular idea falls flat very quickly when we consider how the early Latin churchmen have made mention up until the 4th century how the Holy Spirit still works this way through various Believers."

As much as I need to compile a list of what many of the early Latin churchmen said regarding tongues, it appears that most of them were guessing and if for those who claimed that some speak in known human languages then they were obviously making this up to suit the moment.

1 Corinthians 13:8-10
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.

Simply observe what goes on in our world today, there are no miraculous gifts. There is the Holy Spirit that does dwell in God's people yet It's function is different from what it did in the apostles.

You may as well say that there is no Father and no Son and I am at a complete loss as to why you are trying to incorrectly say that the Manifestations of the Spirit were only for the Apostles, have you read Acts, Romans, 1 Corinthians, Ephesians and Jude?

 

[Biblicist]

And, again, I would repeat myself that descriptions of such things are for our benefit. When the prophets received the "Word of the LORD", I suspect that if when/if/where there was an audible component it was in Hebrew because that was the language of the prophets. And when God deigned to grant visions, or heavenly experiences, the way in which God revealed these things was by means by which it was beneficial and somewhat comprehensible to those who received them.

That God spoke to Moses through a burning bush in the language which Moses could comprehend doesn't mean that this is what God speaks "day to day" up in glory.

This is akin to saying that God literally has arms or wings, after all Scripture describes God's arms, wings, etc; likewise it would be suggesting that the Almighty literally sits in a giant chair since Scripture speaks of God's throne.

-CryptoLutheran

As the Scriptures fully describe both the Father and the Son has having a spiritual body that has arms and legs, along with that of the Angels and other heavenly hosts, then I am at a loss as to why people try and say otherwise. Don't forget, we do not know the nature of tongues in that is it a heavenly Angelic language or a form of inter-communication that is not based on human voice codes but where tongues are another form of inter-communication. We do not know how the communications that the Holy Spirit gives to the Father are being framed, are they in linguistic frames or are they being conveyed in another way - I wish that I knew myself.

In the end your point is somewhat moot in that even if the Heavenly hosts did not communicate linguistically amongst themselves, we know that they have spoken to man on many occasions when either the Father or an Angel conveys something to us. If we receive instructions via voice frames from the Father and that we also communicate to the Father in the same manner when we 'pray with our minds', then there is absolutely no reason why the Holy Spirit would not speak through us to the Father in a similar way; don't forget, prayer is a two-way medium.

 

[Waggles]

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believe not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mark 16:15-18

24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathers not with me scatters abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaks against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Matthew 12:24-32

 

[Ron Gurley]

Response to post #538

Mark 16: verses 9-end did not appear in the oldest Manuscripts. Most likely they were later ADDED, making them unreliable, especially when those verses do not HARMONIZE with any other Gospel

9 Now after He had risen early on the first day of the week, He first appeared to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons. 10 She went and reported to those who had been with Him, while they were mourning and weeping. 11 When they heard that He was alive and had been seen by her, they refused to believe it.

INCONSISTENT with all other accounts

12 After that, He appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking along on their way to the country. 13 They went away and reported it to the others, but they did not believe them either.

INCONSISTENT with all other accounts

The Disciples/Apostles Commissioned

14 Afterward He appeared to the "eleven" themselves as they were "reclining at the table" (???);
and He reproached them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who had seen Him after He had risen. (before/at ascension ALL believed!)
15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all "creation".

COMPARE:

1. Matthew 28 end...the Great commission

2. Matthew 24...Jesus' prophecy of the "end times
14 This "gospel of the kingdom" shall be preached in the whole world (kosmos) as a testimony to all the NATIONS, and then the end (of Great Tribulation) will come...

16 He who has believed AND has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

WRONG! ritual water baptism is NOT required for salvation! SEE: John 3 explained in Ephesians 2.

17 These SIGNS (ALL?) will accompany (ALL?) those who have BELIEVEDunto salvation)
1. in My name they will cast out demons,
2. they will speak with new tongues (glossae); 18
3. they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them;
4. they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

WRONG! only the appointed apostolic followers had miraculous authenticating powers!

19 So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them,
He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

COMPARE: ACTS 1: 6-11

6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying,
“Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?”
7 He said to them,
“It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;
8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you;
and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

The Ascension

9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going,
behold, two men in white (ANGELS) clothing stood beside them.
11 THEY also said,
“Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky?
This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven,
will come (BACK?) in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”
...............
20 And they went out and preached everywhere, >>while the Lord worked with them<< (in SPIRIT ONLY?),
and confirmed the (Jesus'?) "word" by the SIGNS that followed.]

---=============
Matthew 12:24-32(NASB)

28 But if I (Jesus) cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the "kingdom of God" (Jesus) "has come upon you".

has come ...Greek 5348...phthanō...

1. 
   
   
   • to come before, precede, anticipate
   • to come to, arrive at
   • to reach, attain to

upon...Greek 1909...epi...
of position, on, at, by, over, against

you...Greek 4771...sy
Personal pronoun of the second person singular

 

[Marvin Knox]

.................I can't possibly comprehend what the glorious praises of the angels actually is like in the sublime mystery of the eternal glory. I can comprehend what singing is though, and by this can get the tiniest glimpse of these mysteries.

You can't possibly comprehend what the praises of angels actually is. You believe it is a mystery of the eternal glory.

But you are quite sure that the incomprehensible prayers of many of the saints are gibberish?

I also can comprehend what singing is even when it's in another language which I don't understand. Through that fact I get the tiniest glimpse of the fact that the language I pray with but don't understand is not gibberish but is a language understandable and beautiful to the God for whom it is intended.