Speak in Tongues - essential :

[1stcenturylady]

1 Corinthians 14
2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.

My objection is that you are mixing up person'spirit with the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 14:2King James Version (KJV)

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1 Corinthians 14:2New King James Version (NKJV)

2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

1 Corinthians 14:2New American Standard Bible (NASB)

2 For one who A)' data-cr="#cen-NASB-28681A">speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one a]' data-fn="#fen-NASB-28681a">[a]understands, but b]' data-fn="#fen-NASB-28681b">[b]in his spirit he speaks B)' data-cr="#cen-NASB-28681B">mysteries.

Footnotes:

1. 
   
   
   • 1 Corinthians 14:2 Lit hears
   • 1 Corinthians 14:2 Or by the Spirit

1 Corinthians 14:2New International Version (NIV)

2 For anyone who speaks in a tonguea]' data-fn="#fen-NIV-28681a">[a]A)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-28681A"> does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them;B)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-28681B"> they utter mysteriesC)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-28681C"> by the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 14:2Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

2 for he who is speaking in an [unknown] tongue -- to men he doth not speak, but to God, for no one doth hearken, and in spirit he doth speak secrets;

 

[1stcenturylady]

"When you come to grips" is not words that should be used in a discussion between two believers. That line places you above me, not Him above us.

What I described is Scriptural... you seem to... have an emotional attachment to your position so I will let it be. The Acts 2 point is that the disciples spoke in OTHER languages and those from the nations who were there heard them in their own language. That is exactly what the Scripture states on Acts 2, which means, it cannot be used to support the teaching that many Pentecostals use it for.

Be blessed.
Ken

Any Christian who claims to want truth does not contradict scripture. I don't. You do.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Just avoid using that term. Although, I'm not that thin-skinned. However, there are people who do find it offensive, as I said. And by the way, it is a contrived word that isn't in my dictionary. Gibberish is, however.

Interesting you used that word AGAIN!

 

[Marvin Knox]

Oh, so you think knowing ALL mysteries and ALL knowledge, moving mountains, giving away EVERYTHING that you own, and giving up your own life are not exaggerations but the normal expected everyday operations of each of those gifts?

They aren't what either we or likely God would call "expected normal" occurrences. But they are not exaggerations of what God would like to see His church be willing and hopefully also capable of doing.

Secondly a mystery (mustérion) is a secret of God that is hidden and awaiting to be revealed to mankind. Those are clearly things that can, if God so chooses, be revealed in prophecy.

According to scripture God prophecies to His church through the use of tongues spoken by man - assuming there is an interpretation of such.

You have told me in the past that tongues were not the Holy Spirit speaking to men. Please explain.

if "knowing all mysteries" was a separate example then like the other examples it would be a spiritual gift. I don't see "knowing all mysteries" listed anywhere as a spiritual gift.

That seems like you are playing word games here. It's a little like asking someone to show you where it says "God is a Trinity" or, for that matter, show me where it says, "praying in the Holy Spirit is praying in tongues".

While the exact words "knowing all mysteries" are not listed as spiritual gifts - the word of knowledge is. Likewise the gift of prophecy would function to show men mysteries of God - see 1 Cor. 14:10 and Romans 12:6.

Definition of gibberish
: unintelligible or meaningless language:

No one who practiced tongues would say that the words uttered were "meaningless".

Tongues ceased because God withdrew the gift (just as Paul prophesied would happen) not because tongues speakers were persecuted.........Paul told us that tongues would cease in 1 Cor 13:8............The later Fathers (eg Chrysostom, Augustine) around 350-400 AD also affirmed they were foreign human languages and reported the gift had ceased (coinciding with the distribution of the completed canon and maturing of the church), just as Paul prophesied it would.

I could have sworn that you told us that, although you were saying that tongues are always known language you were not a cessationist.

Please explain.
Thanks.

 

[Waggles]

But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
1 Corinthians 14:38

 

[Anto9us]

Q. How many Cessationists does it take to change a light-bulb?

A. None.
They would rather STAY IN THE DARK and say it had come time for the light to CEASE or PASS AWAY.

 

[mark kennedy]

The gift of tongues, actually languages, was first manifest at Pentecost. The Jews of the dispersion were there and of the 13 language mentioned there were 11 languages spoken. What scholars think happened is each of the 11 Apostles came out speaking the native language of the one they were proclaiming the wonderful works of God to. Tongues are only mentioned a few times in Acts but Paul devotes an entire chapter to them in the letter to the Corinthians:

Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. (1 Cor. 14:4)

The purpose of the gifts is to build up the body of Christ. There is no basis for a private prayer language no one understands, even the speaker. It's certainly not a requirement for salvation.

 

[1stcenturylady]

The gift of tongues, actually languages, was first manifest at Pentecost. The Jews of the dispersion were there and of the 13 language mentioned there were 11 languages spoken. What scholars think happened is each of the 11 Apostles came out speaking the native language of the one they were proclaiming the wonderful works of God to. Tongues are only mentioned a few times in Acts but Paul devotes an entire chapter to them in the letter to the Corinthians:

Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. (1 Cor. 14:4)

The purpose of the gifts is to build up the body of Christ. There is no basis for a private prayer language no one understands, even the speaker. It's certainly not a requirement for salvation.

John Calvin was one of the few reformists who didn't accept that the gifts were for today. I see you are a true Calivinist. I always rejoice when I find a Calvinist who DOESN'T hold to that view. They have kept their open mind to the Spirit.

 

[Waggles]

Tongues and Interpretation

To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1 Corinthians 12:10
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesies than he that speaks with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
13 Wherefore let him that speaks in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
1 Corinthians 14:

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit
gave them utterance.
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What means this?
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Acts 2:

Here on this day of Pentecost is the first gift; the first miracle of interpretation of unknown tongues for the benefit of understanding by an assembled congregation of people.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Tongues and Interpretation

To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1 Corinthians 12:10
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesies than he that speaks with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
13 Wherefore let him that speaks in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
1 Corinthians 14:

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit
gave them utterance.
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What means this?
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Acts 2:

Here on this day of Pentecost is the first gift; the first miracle of interpretation of unknown tongues for the benefit of understanding by an assembled congregation of people.

Yes, and you also see in Acts 2 the only people who didn't receive this interpretation were mockers. That is a whole sermon in itself!

 

[mark kennedy]

John Calvin was one of the few reformists who didn't accept that the gifts were for today. I see you are a true Calivinist. I always rejoice when I find a Calvinist who DOESN'T hold to that view. They have kept their open mind to the Spirit.

I never said the gifts were not for today, what I'm telling you is that what is passing for tongues now isn't a gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Righttruth]

Footnotes:

1. 
   
   • 1 Corinthians 14:2 Lit hears
   • 1 Corinthians 14:2 Or by the Spirit

1 Corinthians 14:2New International Version (NIV)

Why do you quote footnotes? What does the main translations say? Nevertheless, you see Paul desires spiritual gifts (diverse tongues, not gibberish). But with mocking stance of notorious Corinthian people, he deals only with unknown (gibberish) tongue that had become a nuisance from 14:2 to 32 ending with spirits of prophets. (Not the Holy Spirit).

You seem to equate person's spirit to the Holy Spirit, a blasphemy!

 

[Biblicist]

Oh, so you think knowing ALL mysteries and ALL knowledge, moving mountains, giving away EVERYTHING that you own, and giving up your own life are not exaggerations but the normal expected everyday operations of each of those gifts?

It seems that you are missing the obvious again, which I have already informed about on a number of occasions, where Paul is not making reference to me, you or the Corinthians, he is speaking about himself in the first person.

I see that you have chosen to 'forget' to make mention of the everyday use of prophecy and I hardly think that Paul would be able to use all of the mysteries that have been entrusted to him in a single day or apply all of his faith in one day or move every life obstacle (move mountains) in a single day; for that matter, Paul is not suggesting that all of these things have to be put in operation every single day of the week, after all, we can only die once.

The following graphic which I have posted on a number of occasions shows how Paul is connecting the seven conditional elements of the Manifestations of the Spirit and human traits to love, where he has informed us that no matter who mightily the Spirit may work through us and how open we are with our wordly goods and even if we were to sacrifice ourselves that unless we operate and do these things in love that they will not benefit us, not that they will be useless to others but that we will gain nothing for them in the economy of God.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Why do you quote footnotes? What does the main translations say? Nevertheless, you see Paul desires spiritual gifts (diverse tongues, not gibberish). But with mocking stance of notorious Corinthian people, he deals only with unknown (gibberish) tongue that had become a nuisance from 14:2 to 32 ending with spirits of prophets. (Not the Holy Spirit).

You seem to equate person's spirit to the Holy Spirit, a blasphemy!

Why do you think? And stop being offensive, or can't you?

 

[1stcenturylady]

I never said the gifts were not for today, what I'm telling you is that what is passing for tongues now isn't a gift of the Holy Spirit.

Says who? You?

 

[Waggles]

Pentecost works for me.

 

[Waggles]

http://miracles.areonthe.net/TESTIM...ntact with God, I spoke in tongues (Tina).pdf

 

[Biblicist]

And I am staggered that you cannot see that mysteries are associated with prophecy. Allow me to assist you:

First of all, if you hadn't noticed, it forms part of the same "if" statement dealing with prophecy and therefore clearly connected with it.

Secondly a mystery (mustérion) is a secret of God that is hidden and awaiting to be revealed to mankind. Those are clearly things that can, if God so chooses, be revealed in prophecy.

BDAG Lexicon
μυστήριον
...
① the unmanifested or private counsel of God, (God’s) secret, the secret thoughts, plans, and dispensations of God (SJCh 78, 9; τὸ μ. τῆς μοναρχίας τῆς κατὰ τὸν θεόν Theoph. Ant. 2, 28 [p. 166, 17]) which are hidden fr. human reason, as well as fr. all other comprehension below the divine level, and await either fulfillment or revelation to those for whom they are intended​

And here is a clear example of Paul revealing a mystery in a prophecy:

Rom 15:51 "Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. "​

Thirdly if "knowing all mysteries" was a separate example of Paul's then it would have it's own "if" qualifier like the others.

Fourthly if "knowing all mysteries" was a separate example then like the other examples it would be a spiritual gift. I don't see "knowing all mysteries" listed anywhere as a spiritual gift.

There's not really all that much that I can say here as it seems to be more a perspective found within 'backyard' cessationism; as I have not come across it within the 49 commentaries that I own on 1Cor 12, 13 & 14 then you will need to find a 'source' (other than a Chick pamphlet) that backs up your rather wild claim.

 

[Biblicist]

Please quote a verse wherein it tells we pray in the Spirit. Are you claiming more than what Paul claimed?

1 Corinthians 14

2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.
14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.

The Holy Spirit never intercedes for anybody by uttering unknown tongue (gibberish)

Hey, you actually provided the answer to your own question, it is found throughout the passage that you hyperlinked to, but of course we both know that you already know this.

 

[Biblicist]

The only issue I would have with either of your replies to me, and I may have read this wrong so feel free to correct me... is that "baptism of the Holy Spirit" doesn't = speaking in tongues.

This is the type of post that I could spend hours with and in fact it reflects the intensive amount of interaction that had occurred for maybe 30 years on this point between classic-Pentecostals (ie, AoG) with the Evangelicals and Charismatics; but as of now, it seems that there is little if any interest within the various Charismatic movements and the Evangelicals who have rejected the subsequence position regarding the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, it seems to have died off within academic circles where it has been left with the AoG and other similar classic-Pentecostal denominations.

As much as I now recognise that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is not one of subsequence, where instead all Believers are Baptised in the Spirit even if they speak in tongues or not, what now happens is that my Pentecostal tag jumps in where it says that as the New Testament record shows us that tongues accompanies the Salvific experience, that I hold to the view that before every call to Salvation that we need to inform potential initiates that they can/should expect to be able to immediately pray in the Spirit (tongues).

So the Evangelicals and Charismatics are correct in that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit occurs at the moment we first receive the Holy Spirit at conversion, but as a Pentecostal I believe that the Salvific experience should ideally see all initiates being able to quickly speak in tongues, but again, it is not compulsory for Salvation but it does complete the Biblical pattern – this is what makes me a non-classic Pentecostal.

Essentially, the difference between a classic Pentecostal (ie, AoG) and a non-classic Pentecostal is one of timing. This means that even though I now disagree with the classic Pentecostal it does not detract from the fact that they have the right experience, but merely an incorrect timing.

To be immersed into the Spirit is just that, being immersed into the Spirit. That action manifests itself in many different ways, one of which is tongues but that is not exclusive by any stretch of the imagination. Here in Kentucky (my world view is wider than some who have been raised in Kentucky seeing I moved here from New Jersey but am also part of a ministry that reaches world wide) when around the Pentecostals I hear "Baptized into the Spirit" and it means "speaking in tongues to them." I have sat through a number of discussions with pastors, sat quietly allowing them to make their case based on Scripture... and in the end there is no way, scripturally, to get "speaking in tongues only" from "baptism in the Holy Spirit." It CAN be a manifestation of that act, but not the sole manifestation of that act.

Quite often, when we speak with 'pastors' at local congregational level I tend to lack some confidence with their ability to not only correctly exegete a Biblical passage but if some even have the ability to move past what has been merely handed down to them.

At this point in time you can take some comfort with knowing that most (maybe 99.9%) of Charismatics have rejected the idea that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is one of subsequence and in places such as Germany and Chile (among others), the broader Pentecostal movement has done much the same. Hopefully within a decade or so the AoG will get enough courage to discard this particular view and move on.