Speak in Tongues - essential :

[ViaCrucis]

Here is an example of the difficulty of translation, there is no direct translation of "God" into Mandarin, there are two ways in which it has been accomplished, one is to use the Mandarin word shén (神), it means "spirit", "mind", "energy", "expression"; its use to translate the Christian concept of "God" taken from Greek theos, Latin deus, etc, that is "deity" or "divine being" or as we mean it "the one and only God" etc by way of trying to convey the sense, this is because shén exists in Mandarin and Chinese cultural history in reference to what we might describe in English as powerful spirits, supernatural expressions, etc. There aren't any direct, perfect translations between what a native Mandarin speaker when referring to Chinese folk stories and myths concerning shén and what English-speaking Christians are referring to when they say God. Shén is not a direct formal equivalent to the theoi ("gods") of the Greco-Roman pantheon, or to the Hebrew concept of elohim "mighties" translated as "gods" or "God" depending on context. Because the disparity in culture between the history and internal way of speaking and thinking in China is different than the history and internal way of speaking and thinking in both Semitic or the Classical West. Further this isn't the only way to translate the concept of "God" into Mandarin. The earliest contact between Christianity and China occurred with the "Nestorian" Church, where the term used to render the concept of God was Tiānzhǔ (天主), meaning roughly "Lord of Heaven", from tian (天) meaning "sky" or "celestial" and zhu (主) meaning "master" or "proprietor" or "one's husband" or "ruler". And still another shangdi (上帝) from shang (上) which conveys the meaning of "up" or "above", and ti/di (帝) meaning "emperor" or "supreme lord", etc, hence shangdi conveying the sense of "heavenly lord" or "most high ruler" corresponding perhaps to in English "Most High God" similar to the Hebrew El-Elyon, "Highest God" or "God-Most High".

This is just one example of how translation works in the real world, it's not a simple word-for-word process, it's rarely (almost never) ever that easy.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[1stcenturylady]

Yes, so when someone speaks in modern tongues and says for example "shundra mi talala" and someone interprets it as "God is good", then one of those words is 'God' and another is 'good'. If that is not the case then it is not a language.

It is not a word for word translation, and your example does not coincide with tongues and interpretation.

 

[Waggles]

Yes, so when someone speaks in modern tongues and says for example "shundra mi talala" and someone interprets it as "God is good", then one of those words is 'God' and another is 'good'. If that is not the case then it is not a language.

So what language do God and the angels speak in the Heavens?

 

[swordsman1]

It is not a word for word translation

If it is a language then by definition it will have words, and each word will have a meaning. So every word you hear in tongues will have a meaning and every time that word is repeated in the same context it will have the same meaning (otherwise it is not a language). That meaning can then be conveyed in English by an interpreter.

and your example does not coincide with tongues and interpretation.

Says who?

Ok, here is a real life example:

Speaking in tongues

Here someone gave a message in tongues:

"Remasundu katapa singundo ramadika kibasa nabadatu quisaku."​

And then gave the interpretation:

"Jesus is high above all. He is the only Saviour in whom you might find forgiveness and eternal life."​

If it is a language the word "Remasundu" will have a meaning and will be conveyed somewhere in his interpretation - presumably it is "Jesus". If it is a language then every time that word is repeated it will also be "Jesus". Carry on like that and eventually a full lexicon of the language could be compiled.

 

[Righttruth]

I agree. But you are still describing false claims, and provoking. No Pentecostal speaks the "G" word! That is YOUR evil spirited opinion. Now just stop it!

I am technically and spiritually right in calling any talk as gibberish since it is neither understood by the speaker nor by the audience.

 

[ViaCrucis]

So what language do God and the angels speak in the Heavens?

There's no reason to believe that God and the angels have a "language". The spoken word, language, is a property that arises because of our physiology--a combination of our anatomy and intellectual capacity--there is no reason to attribute something like this to God or His angels; not only because there's no reason to assume God or His angels are in need of it, but also because there is no physiology in reference to God or His angels. Whenever there is record of God or the angels speaking it is for our benefit, thus when God spoke to Moses through the burning bush we can reasonably assume that God was speaking Moses' tongue, when angels took on form, human or otherwise, and communicated with human beings they would have spoken in the language of the recipient. To impose the concept of language onto God and the angels is to force an anthropocentric model upon what is, fundamentally, beyond human comprehension (especially in regard to God and His Nature).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Anto9us]

Job 38:1
Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

Job 38:2
Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

Job 38:3
Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

Job 38:4
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Job 38:5
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Job 38:6
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Job 38:7
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

 

[Anto9us]

Dan 10:12
Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.

Dan 10:13
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

This implies communication between Gabriel and Michael -- two angels -- or are they simply "anthropomorphisms"?

How many of you all believe that Gabriel and Michael are real beings, and can communicate?

 

[Anto9us]

Jude 1:9

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Here we have reference to Michael the archangel SAYING SOMETHING to the devil (a fallen angel)

Angelic beings USING LANGUAGE - among themselves, not 'to man' - Bible says so FLAT OUT.

 

[ViaCrucis]

This implies communication between Gabriel and Michael -- two angels -- or are they simply "anthropomorphisms"?

If your assumption is that Michael and Gabriel have physical mouths, larynxes, etc then yeah it would be anthropomorphism.

How many of you all believe that Gabriel and Michael are real beings, and can communicate?

Non-issue. Nobody is questioning the existence of the holy angels.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Angelic beings USING LANGUAGE - among themselves, not 'to man' - Bible says so FLAT OUT.

Here's what I said,

Whenever there is record of God or the angels speaking it is for our benefit

That doesn't exclude exchanges such as this, it just means that describing this in this way is for our benefit as human beings. For the same reason Scripture uses language such as to speak of God having wings, or arms, etc.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Anto9us]

So there is such a thing as angelic languages, I mean, who would question it if Paul says, even hypothetically, "if I speak in the tongues of men and of angels" --
the other hypothetical "ifs" -- giving body to be burned, having faith to move mountains (which Jesus affirms as possibility also)
they all CAN BE DONE

so tongues involves languages of men and of angels

 

[Anto9us]

There's no reason to believe that God and the angels have a "language". The spoken word, language, is a property that arises because of our physiology--a combination of our anatomy and intellectual capacity--there is no reason to attribute something like this to God or His angels;

That is what you said VC - that I took issue with, and still do, and in the Job quote I put above - angels singing and shouting for joy has nothing whatsoever to do with human physiology, humans were not there yet - that was the point of the Job quote about "where you you when..."

 

[1stcenturylady]

I am technically and spiritually right in calling any talk as gibberish since it is neither understood by the speaker nor by the audience.

What spirituality? You completely discount 1 Corinthians 14:2 which is the Word of God, so your spirit is not of God. So what does that leave?

 

[Ron Gurley]

Post#483: Q1: ...So what "language" (glossa) do God and the angels "speak" in the Heavens?...

A1: None. They are spirit beings. There is no need for imperfect human-type communication.

Read the story of: "The Tower of Babel"

Genesis 11:1 (NASB) [ Universal Language, Babel, Confusion ] Now the whole earth used the same language and the same words.

Genesis 11:9
Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the Lord confused the "language" of the whole earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of the whole earth.

 

[Anto9us]

1Co 13:1
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

1Co 13:2
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

1Co 13:3
And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

All of the "though I" -- "if I" -- clauses are possible, though hypothetical, in those 3 verses (if we believe Jesus about faith moving mountains)

I just do not understand the obstinancy of Cessionists to insist that angels do not have language when the Bible describes them singing, shouting, speaking --

you know, you anti-tonguers, it's really just "anything to dismiss Tongues as a reality" -- it's an AGENDA from a theological position, it's not reason.

Lot of Christians speak in Tongues -- what are you SO SCARED OF ABOUT IT FOR?

Take Gamaliel's advice - you aint gonna stop it - you are just going to wind up at war with God.

 

[Biblicist]

1Co 13:1
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

1Co 13:2
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

1Co 13:3
And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

All of the "though I" -- "if I" -- clauses are possible, though hypothetical, in those 3 verses (if we believe Jesus about faith moving mountains)

When individuals throw in the now very old and tired hypothetical line by rewording its meaning to that of hyperbole; which admittedly at times this may be the result of a limited education, it is usually little more than an attempt to deflect people away from the plain sense of the passage; essentially, it is little more than CNN theology as with fake news and intentional misdirects.

What Paul has employed is a set of conditional clauses that may or may not be in play depending on our ability to love; as such, these conditional clauses are indeed hypothetical as the outcome will depend on how the individual responds in love. It fascinates me that cessationists try and deflect Paul's plain meaning away from love, which chapter 13 is all about.

I just do not understand the obstinancy of Cessionists to insist that angels do not have language when the Bible describes them singing, shouting, speaking --

Well, the same can be said for the world as well as both the world and cessationism share much the same worldview when it comes to the Person and Ministry of the Holy Spirit, if there is any substantial difference then I would love to know what it could be.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Post#483: Q1: ...So what "language" (glossa) do God and the angels "speak" in the Heavens?...

None. They are spirit beings. There is no need for imperfect human-type communication.

There's no reason to believe that God and the angels have a "language". The spoken word, language, is a property that arises because of our physiology--a combination of our anatomy and intellectual capacity--there is no reason to attribute something like this to God or His angels; not only because there's no reason to assume God or His angels are in need of it, but also because there is no physiology in reference to God or His angels. Whenever there is record of God or the angels speaking it is for our benefit, .............. To impose the concept of language onto God and the angels is to force an anthropocentric model upon what is, fundamentally, beyond human comprehension (especially in regard to God and His Nature).

You people have to have lost your minds? Or - are you just being argumentative and hoping no one will call you on these ridiculous statements?

Are you so afraid of people who speak in tongues that you'll say anything in the world to try to undermine it's legitimacy?

"And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?”

"Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts." Psalm 148:2

"When the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Job 38:7

What were the angels shouting and singing - some kind of grunts or groans?

"The Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.” The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.” Then Satan answered the Lord, “Does Job fear God for nothing? Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face.” Then the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord." Job 1:7-12

I'll grant you that we don't know what language they were speaking. Almost undoubtedly it wasn't a known human language.

But obviously it was a language.

Maybe you'd like to accuse God and His angels of speaking "gibberish". And why not? You don't hesitate to accuse God's children.

 

[Biblicist]

Ok let's look again at that particular 'if' statement:

"If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge....but do not have love, I am nothing"

Did Paul really prophecy to the degree of fathoming ALL mysteries. ie was he omniscient? I don't think so.

Now that certainly caught me by surprise as it was what I thought you meant in the first place but it makes absolutely no sense I simply presumed that I misunderstood what you were trying to say.

I'm staggered as to how you can equate prophecy with mysteries. Even though I have not checked each of the 49 commentaries that I own on First Corinthians 12, 13 & 14, I could not imagine anyone taking the line that you have presented. Though I suspect that it could merely be an attempt on your part to tidy up your attempt to say that Paul is merely employing hyperbole.

 

[Biblicist]

There's no reason to believe that God and the angels have a "language". The spoken word, language, is a property that arises because of our physiology--a combination of our anatomy and intellectual capacity--there is no reason to attribute something like this to God or His angels;

I will have to thrown in my bit here as well as this is really a bit of a desperate argument, tell me, do the members of the Godhead and the Angelic hosts maybe employ a bit of sign language?

Of course we only have to look at the various places within the Scriptures where the Biblical writers speak of what they heard being said in the heavens.