Spanking

[bostonlass]

I am sincerely shocked by what I read at this link, truly shocked. I fear for folks who will buy into sumthin that they truly don't understand. This doesn't mean I am knockin ones beliefs or anythin but what I do mean is folks accept sumthin as doctrine simply because someone sticks a bunch of letters behind thier name. Folks never go and look it up for themsef's.

For example:



If one believes this then one has not read the bible from cover to cover. The entire bible is completely full of parentin issues, after all God is our father an our parent. I did a quick search for references in the bible and ended up with 1,515 references to children, yes of course a bunch of those are going to be subjects like the children of Iseral and children of God etc but Proverbs for example is full of teachin's of what a child should do, what a father should do along with relationships for spouses an the like. To make a statement like the bible is unusually silent on a topic normally seems to me that th bible didn't say what one wanted it to therefore they say sumthin like this an all those who have never read Gods word simply takes it at face value.



I just bout fell out th chair on this one... I have always loved how folks could take sumthin that was totally unrealted to sumthin else an make it fit, but even usin this parable the author proves himsef wrong! The author himsef says so right there in bold (I bolded it) if we don't obey we suffer the consequences. I also really like the reference here that for me to disicpline my daughter with anythin other then this form of correction then I am unforgiven of my child. Junk, simply junk!



This one is very shockin as well..... see now I don't have to take any responsibility for my actions or my faith or my relationship with Christ because it's the responsibility of th Holy spirit................ this is almost crazy enough to be beyond words! The Holy spirit isn't responsible for my fruit or my actions, it's my responsiblity to allow the Holy spirit to work through me, so that the world see's the fruit of the spirit through me. Does that make sense? I'm havin a bit of a time explain it cause I'm so exasprated by this. If I were to say it's the resonsibility of the Holy spirit then like wise I can say that since I didn't do anythin good today etc then I guess the Holy spirit must have taken a day off er sumthin. I cain't blame the Holy spirit for my failins!!! An I think that's what the world is tryin to do these days, le's jes find someone else to blame an not take resonsibility for our actions. It's junk!!



I completely disagree with this as well, to say that disicpline in any other form isn't a relationship with my child is silly, not only that but to teach that God will not punish us for our screw ups is jes like Katydid says, we're settin our children up for failure. I don't want to stand before my father God an explain to Him why my child thought it was ok to screw up with the excuse that I talked to my child about it. I also disagree that the relationship my child seeks with the Lord is dependant on how my relationship is with my child. I think that's apples an oranges again.

I admit I haven't read the rest of this site an plan on doin so as soon as I get a chance, but from the first page I am very very concerened bout this an like I said the other day, it really bothers me for someone to use the word grace in this, because I think grace is also punishin to correct. To clarify, like Katydid said, we are condemed to death because of our sin, but because of the gift of Christ and His grace we no longer suffer that consequence but that doesn't mean our sin is without consequence either. Scars, disease etc.



I need to make this sound better some how cause it's not comin out right an folks are gonna hit the roof hehe.

To have grace extended to us by anyone does not mean that the slate is wiped clean.... er rather it does but that doesn't relieve us from the consquences... er rather it does..... this isn't comin out right at all.... Perhaps a better way of explainin it is to use the example Katydid used, a judge may show me grace but that doesn't mean I'm completely free from all consquences, the same thing applies to the Lord, He extends grace to me but that doesn't mean I'm held free from the consquences of my actions. God's grace saves me, but if I choose to screw up, I'm held accountable for my actions. Even though He shows me grace I still have to endure whatever the consquence or punishment I'm given and by that God corrects my behavoir.

If this doesn't make sense le'me know I'll see if'n I cain't spit an sputter some more out hehe

Oh my gosh I just have to tell you that I LOVE how you talk!!!! Your posts always make me giggle and I mean NO disrespect it's just you have a wonderful way of delivering your message in such a clear, concise, matter of fact way!

 

[Katydid]

My wife is a psychologist. Are you? (And I'm not at all trying to sound rude).

No I am not, but as I stated, though I didn't mention the length of time earlier, we were in counseling with my oldest for 3 years. Child psychologists, psychyatrists, and specialists to deal with his emotional problems. So I would ask, does your wife specialize in Child Psychology? Does she deal with emotional problems in children, has she dealt with children with PTSD, and with Paranoid behavior, with Rage disorders. This is what we dealt with for years, and now that he is older, he no longer has fits of rage, but only because we continue to incorporate what we learned those three long years in counseling.

Lastly, I don't expect you or anyone to fully understand by looking at one link and thinking that's all there is to it. Of course not. The other link I posted was Tim Kimmel's book. That's a good start. Buy the book (and I don't get a commission! )

Your getting your cart before the horse....trying to apply the methods before understanding the principles.

You know, I think, for me at least, if I don't agree with even the REASONING for using this method, I don't see WHY I should continue to research it. I don't agree with the Basic Principles behind it. That is like saying that because you don't know ALL of NAMBLA'S details, that you aren't giving it a fair shot. I don't believe in even the most BASIC principle behind it, so why look any further.

 

[Andry]

Here is a verse to help you out A2J about consequences that the Lord himself will dish out in the last days, mind you, to people who believe they are Christians....

Wonderful Scriptures....thank you for sharing that.

Now can you list or summarize the consequences of grace? In other words, the grace that God has given to us - undeservedly, without merit, without earning it - how does that change us? How did God's grace change you?

Until we (and notice, I said 'we' to include me) fully understand the depth and impact (which BTW, will be a lifelong journey on its own) of his grace, we will still be living many aspects of our lives based on the negative consequences.

What I mean by that is, I won't do that _______ (whatever sin), because God will be punish me, or there are negative consequences to that action or sin.

Rather than, I won't do that ________ (again, whatever sin), because God's been so kind, so I don't want to disappoint him.

To cite an example: Do you know why I don’t commit adultery? Not because the 10 Commandments said don’t commit adultery. I don’t commit adultery because I love my wife. I don’t do it because I owe her a gratitude of righteousness and kindness. So I don’t do it because the law says it (and yes, the law does say it, and there are consequences to that), but because it's an obligation and privilege of love.

So our lives come to a different place, not because the law says it but because love demands it. I now don’t want to sin cause He’s been so kind. Not because of his judgment. But because of his grace.

And I want to set the same pattern of how God loves us with my son. And I want to teach my son to learn to make choices not because he fears the consequences, but because his dad loves him. Because our Father loves us.

And that takes us from ritual - following a set of do's and don't - to relationship. And once we have right relationship with God, we'll know what has death in it, and we'll know what has life in it. Because with God, it's all about choosing life.

 

[Andry]

No I am not, but as I stated, though I didn't mention the length of time earlier, we were in counseling with my oldest for 3 years. Child psychologists, psychyatrists, and specialists to deal with his emotional problems. So I would ask, does your wife specialize in Child Psychology? Does she deal with emotional problems in children, has she dealt with children with PTSD, and with Paranoid behavior, with Rage disorders. This is what we dealt with for years, and now that he is older, he no longer has fits of rage, but only because we continue to incorporate what we learned those three long years in counseling.

My wife is a child pyschologist.

Can you please count for me how many times I've qualified that GBD might not be for everybody. Please tell, because in each of my posts on the subject, I was careful to be explicit so that it was very clear. And I've also stated that if what your doing with your kids works for you......to continue. I cannot be any clearer than that.

You know, I think, for me at least, if I don't agree with even the REASONING for using this method, I don't see WHY I should continue to research it. I don't agree with the Basic Principles behind it. That is like saying that because you don't know ALL of NAMBLA'S details, that you aren't giving it a fair shot. I don't believe in even the most BASIC principle behind it, so why look any further.

I undertake a lot of due diligence in my profession (I run a public company). So by de facto I'm predisposed 'to looking things up' and doing my own research so that I either know what I'm talking about, or to assess it properly. Unfortunately, I've read a lot of things (both in corporate and familial) across a variety of subjects that were just junk.

Some people - and it's not a fault - aren't predisposed to looking it up. Or, they are confident that after reading a few lines, then can discern it all. If that's what you're like, I envy you. I'm not that smart.

For me, the most basic principle behind GBD is grace. And allowing grace to change us. So perhaps you can articulate what problems you have with the most BASIC principles.

 

[Katydid]

For me, the most basic principle behind GBD is grace. And allowing grace to change us. So perhaps you can articulate what problems you have with the most BASIC principles.

I think that the basic definition of "grace" that is used, is what I have a problem with. To me, grace does not mean "no consequences" but "leniency". I place consequences, but when I feel that the child is repentant, I show leniency. Leniency, to me means that rather than recieving a spanking, we take away a priveledge, etc. Not, instead of a spanking, they are repentant so we say, "OK honey thank you now go play", because I feel that a very important lesson to learn is to take full responsibility for ourselves, the good and the bad.

Can you please count for me how many times I've qualified that GBD might not be for everybody. Please tell, because in each of my posts on the subject, I was careful to be explicit so that it was very clear. And I've also stated that if what your doing with your kids works for you......to continue. I cannot be any clearer than that.

I'm sorry, I know that you said that numerous times, but whereas you like to research (as do I) I like to discuss thoroughly. I do like to research as well, and have done alot of research on GBD, or as much as I can find on the internet. I don't have the money to buy books that I likely will not use. But, by thoroughly discussing an issue, I feel that even without an agreement people can usually come to an understanding. I think that is what I am looking for when it comes to GBD, because I have yet to understand.

My wife is a child pyschologist.

Well, as far as my comments, all I can do is comment on what I was taught by the sources who taught me. But, I will say that when we first dealt with a Child Psychologist, they ended up having to refer us to a specialist who dealt with children with these problems. Perhaps they are more sensitive to the method because of what they had dealt with. Like what I said, if you have ever actually used that method with a child who NEEDED it, you would be shocked at the idea of using it with a child with no emotional problems. It truly is shocking to me. If you don't use that method of holding then I am very happy, and I am sorry but if you do use it, then I will be worried. Mainly because what we went through with it, and what we were taught.

 

[Katydid]

Oh and just to clarify my first comment, to me a lecture is not a consequence. So that is why I feel that it isn't consequences being taught.

 

[andiesmama]

Oh and just to clarify my first comment, to me a lecture is not a consequence. So that is why I feel that it isn't consequences being taught.

I know I haven't been posting....but I've been lurking & reading & absorbing everything everyone's saying....trying to "learn" as Katydid is saying.

I have to post my agreement with this statement. If Andie does something wrong, she'll get the lecture regardless....then I can judge based on her response from the lecture as to the true consequence...does that make sense?

 

[Katydid]

andiesmama, what is your first name, because andiesmama is an awful long name to type when I want to talk you.

OK, well, on with my point for writing to you, I completely understand what you are saying. For instance, my oldest came down to the living room before we woke up and made a mess. Now, normally, I would consider spanking him then making him clean the mess up, but, when I talked to him and found out WHY he had done it, all I asked was that he clean up the mess, and I added a couple chores to his list that day. (The reason a spanking would be considered is because he KNOWS not to come out of his room until 8:30 and he did this at 6). Turns out that he had been woken up by the dog and came down to let him out. The mess was basically collateral damage while he waited to let the dog back in. (Oh and yes, he has a clock in his room and knows how to read time). To me, I showed grace, I bent the rules for him because he had a good reason, but he still had to learn that making the mess is unacceptable, he had to experience the consequences. After that, he now gets upset if his brother or sister starts making a mess in the areas he had to clean.

 

[andiesmama]

andiesmama, what is your first name, because andiesmama is an awful long name to type when I want to talk you. .

Debby....(it's hard to see in my siggy...)

And that is an excellent example!! He knows the rules, he was out of bed....but he had honestly a good reason, so you adjusted the consequence for the behaviour. That's what I'm aiming for with Andie (now if only she could learn to tell time! lol )

 

[Andry]

Oh and just to clarify my first comment, to me a lecture is not a consequence. So that is why I feel that it isn't consequences being taught.

I'll just take this quote as my response to your previous posts in aggregate - I hate cutting/pasting on this thing. (hopefully you'll understand).

Did I say a lecture is a consequence? I don't believe I ever said that. But go ahead and teach the consquences if it works for you. But what can we teach about grace? Or in a different way, how do we teach grace as Jesus taught us?

Further, one of the definitions of correction - at least to me - is verbally admonishing. If my son understands and accepts my verbal admonishments, what do I do next? Make him suffer the consequences still? And for some parents, yes. For me, I extend grace.

In my own Christian walk, I'd rather experience God's grace than the consequences, and change (ie. not to do that again next time) because of his grace than change because of being fearful of the consequence. How about you? And because he's been so kind, to not want to disappoint him next time.

But I do know what the negative consequences are for disobedience, and I'm so glad God's given us grace grace instead. *Consequence is neutral - the result of a cause, either positive or negative.*

The grace that I've taught and shown my son thus far has worked tremendously (and he knows full well what negative consequences are). (And this is not to say or imply you don't teach grace). But again, to be clear, may not necessarily work for everyone, for a variety of reasons.

Also, you stated, "grace does not mean "no consequences" but "leniency"." Now before I respond to that, perhaps you could eloborate more. Because - and I'm treading delicately so as not to imply anything you didn't mean - God's grace to us is "leniency"?

I believe our receiving God's grace that he's given does mean "no consequence", ie. we're not going to hell.

Please clarify.

Blessings.

 

[Katydid]

I believe our receiving God's grace that he's given does mean "no consequence", ie. we're not going to hell.

You are right, no arguments from me. BUT..(I hate "but's" but I always seem to have to throw them in there),God's grace in unmatchable. We cannot match it. And this world will definately NEVER match it. Since my children will have to live and survive in THIS world, they need to learn that God's love is better than my love, and his grace is better than any grace. I was thinking about this and realized, if I want my children to appreciate the gift of God's grace, then they have to see how awesome it is. How are they going to need God if they have me showing them the exact same grace? Basically, why do I need God's forgiveness when I already don't have to pay a price for sin? I also believe it sets a precedence for what to expect when they leave home. That expectation will NEVER be met outside of your protection. Right now it is simple, he broke a vase when he threw a ball in the house, show grace and tell him that you are disappointed, he says sorry, all is forgiven. But, when he turns 16 and breaks another person's car when he runs into it, he will not be shown that same grace. He will have to pay for it, his insurance will go up, but what will your reaction be, will you pay for the damages, will you still cover his vehicle? If so, how does he learn the responsibility that he needs to survive in this world? God's grace follows us after we leave home. Will you continue to pay for the damages and take responsibility for his mistakes when he is 30 and expects that same grace from you?

Now, my definition of leniency is simply to give a lesser consequence for "good behavior". For instance, if my child tries to fix the situation himself, or in the example I gave above, I may adjust the consequences for a given action based on a number of reasons. Including true repentance, or extenuating (sp.) circumstances.

 

[Andry]

I do have one question about this - and I'm not trying to be argumentative. I am concerned that the teaching is that God only gives us good things when we have restored our relationship with him. That is - we sin, we ask for forgiveness, he gives good things - going by how your discipline technique works as an example of God. Now in my experience, and my understanding of the bible, this is not how God works. It was while we were still sinners that Christ died for the ungodly. Grace was given first, and then the law - ie the Israelites were delivered from Egypt, then the law was given. My understanding of grace is that it is not at all linked to our repentence. Is this reflected in your discipline technique? If your son is not repentent does he ever experience the 'reward' bit?

I am just trying to understand - not be argumentative. I would think if you did reward before repentence that that would make it hard for him to understand obviously. But is this truly reflective of biblical grace - I'm not so sure????

Erin

Hi Erin, sorry I overlooked your post.

The process for all of us in seing our relationship restored with our Father, IMHO, is this:

Repentance - Reconciliation - Restitution - Restoration.

We can't jump a step. Without repentance first, there is no reconciliation.

But as an example, I've found among married couples in our own dynamics of an argument or debate, we can apologize and think we've reconciled, so the relationship has thus been restored.

But somehow, as the days and weeks go by, the relationship isn't as before. It's different now. It's because we often miss the restitution part.

But repentance comes first, of course.

 

[andiesmama]

I'd rather experience God's grace than the consequences, and change (ie. not to do that again next time)

Do you feel like you're under the spotlight or what?? lol I think you're doing a great job of explaining and I think it's awesome that we're all having an adult conversation rather than resorting to attacking, etc. like you see on some other threads here!

My question is what if your son DOES do "whatever" again, even after your talk & explanation about why it was wrong in the first place? Do you talk again, or go a step further like a time out or taking something away? Just curious if you've ever had to step it up a little bit??

 

[Katydid]

My question is what if your son DOES do "whatever" again, even after your talk & explanation about why it was wrong in the first place? Do you talk again, or go a step further like a time out or taking something away? Just curious if you've ever had to step it up a little bit??

Very good question . This could actually change my view on this topic.


Also, I am also very glad that we can all have a good discussion regarding an issue that can become so touchy.

 

[Andry]

You are right, no arguments from me. BUT..(I hate "but's" but I always seem to have to throw them in there),God's grace in unmatchable. We cannot match it. And this world will definately NEVER match it. Since my children will have to live and survive in THIS world, they need to learn that God's love is better than my love, and his grace is better than any grace. I was thinking about this and realized, if I want my children to appreciate the gift of God's grace, then they have to see how awesome it is.

Ahhh.....I think there lies our differences. I believe we can. He commands us to love another, as he loved us. (Althought I'm not suggesting we can ever take away someone's sin).

2 Pet 1:2-4Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, according as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Jesus has given us everything we need, to walk in the divine nature. He has equipped us, enabled us, empowered, and created us to that calling. God never commanded us to do anything that was not enabled and empowered to come totally to pass.

So when Jesus says to your husband, love your wife, as Christ loves the church, I believe within your husband is the grace sufficient for him to love you as Christ loves the church.

How are they going to need God if they have me showing them the exact same grace? Basically, why do I need God's forgiveness when I already don't have to pay a price for sin? I also believe it sets a precedence for what to expect when they leave home. That expectation will NEVER be met outside of your protection.

I understand your question, but disagree with your reasoning.

Your kids will see God through you. And to show that no matter how wonderful you are as a parent, God's even better. So that they'll want to please God even more so, because of his offer of grace, and not because of the threat of consequence.

As far as leaving home, if my son has right relationship with the Father, he will know the heartbeat of life. And the choices he makes (and for clarity, not always), will hopefully be life choices - what has life in it.

And do you think for a moment for every predicament our kids will find themselves in that somehow God's forgotten or shocked or lost control? Of course not.

Right now it is simple, he broke a vase when he threw a ball in the house, show grace and tell him that you are disappointed, he says sorry, all is forgiven. But, when he turns 16 and breaks another person's car when he runs into it, he will not be shown that same grace. He will have to pay for it, his insurance will go up, but what will your reaction be, will you pay for the damages, will you still cover his vehicle? If so, how does he learn the responsibility that he needs to survive in this world? God's grace follows us after we leave home. Will you continue to pay for the damages and take responsibility for his mistakes when he is 30 and expects that same grace from you?

Katydid, I'll reiterate somewhat my post to Erin.

Repentance - Reconciliation - Restitution - Restoration.

My son pays back - restitution - what he may have broken, your vase example, out of his allowance.

Same goes if he wreck's someone's car when he's 16. I may have to suffer the consequence as a parent in my own car insurance, but I guarantee there will be restitution on his part before there is restoration of our relationship.

Let me give you a real life example. I once missed and forgot completely our wedding anniversary. (I'll never do that again! ). In fact, I was out on the golf course instead.

My wife didn't say a word. It was only after a few days - yes, I can be thick - that I realized what I'd done (no wonder she was kinda distant those few days!). I apoligized, she accepted my apology and was forgiven. I bought her a nice gift and thought we'd been restored, and went back to my golf routine.

But weeks went by, and we weren't quite back to normal. Finally I realized I missed the restitution part - the gift I had bought her cost money, but it didn't cost me - if you get my meaning. So I decided that for the next 6 months I wouldn't play golf. That, to me, was restitution. And our relationship was restored.

Now, my definition of leniency is simply to give a lesser consequence for "good behavior". For instance, if my child tries to fix the situation himself, or in the example I gave above, I may adjust the consequences for a given action based on a number of reasons. Including true repentance, or extenuating (sp.) circumstances.

And I would respect your choices and reasonings. And end it there. But what would happen, do you think, if you extended grace totally underserving like an ice cream? You know you kids best, so I'm curious.

 

[Andry]

Do you feel like you're under the spotlight or what?? lol I think you're doing a great job of explaining and I think it's awesome that we're all having an adult conversation rather than resorting to attacking, etc. like you see on some other threads here!

My question is what if your son DOES do "whatever" again, even after your talk & explanation about why it was wrong in the first place? Do you talk again, or go a step further like a time out or taking something away? Just curious if you've ever had to step it up a little bit??

It is a very good question. How does Jesus deal with us? How does Jesus deal with some of our sins that we do over and over again. And repent over and over again. What's Jesus' response? Forgiveness? Grace? Restored relationship? And I dare say, most of our screw ups we ought to know better. By the same token, much of our kids screw ups were because they didn't know any better, or at the least.....they're kids. But we somehow have 'adult' expectations and so we put an adult benchmark. The same benchmark we keep failing at also in our own screw ups.

Ahh, you say, but I've suffered the consequences of my sin. Yes, there's that too. But not always and all the time. I dare say, at least in my own life, grace - totally undeserving - has been extended in greater measure than consequences. And it's that same grace that has brought healing and change and a repentant heart. Now that's not to say we let sin abound, because grace abounds. Of course not. But for those times that I've 'escaped' the consequences of my sin....I am so grateful for the grace! So grateful, and sorrowful at the same time that I fell short of the mark yet again and disappointed our Heavenly Father. That's the grace that brought me to relationship with Him, and in him, understand the choices I make next time to bring life, and not death.

That's what I want to instill in my kids.....thus, I haven't ruled out spanking. Which is what my original post on this thread said. I'm just not quick to pull out the spanking card.

 

[andiesmama]

It is a very good question. How does Jesus deal with us? How does Jesus deal with some of our sins that we do over and over again. And repent over and over again. What's Jesus' response? Forgiveness? Grace? Restored relationship? And I dare say, most of our screw ups we ought to know better. By the same token, much of our kids screw ups were because they didn't know any better, or at the least.....they're kids. But we somehow have 'adult' expectations and so we put an adult benchmark. The same benchmark we keep failing at also in our own screw ups.

Ahh, you say, but I've suffered the consequences of my sin. Yes, there's that too. But not always and all the time. I dare say, at least in my own life, grace - totally undeserving - has been extended in greater measure than consequences. And it's that same grace that has brought healing and change and a repentant heart. Now that's not to say we let sin abound, because grace abounds. Of course not. But for those times that I've 'escaped' the consequences of my sin....I am so grateful for the grace! So grateful, and sorrowful at the same time that I fell short of the mark yet again and disappointed our Heavenly Father. That's the grace that brought me to relationship with Him, and in him, understand the choices me make next time to bring life, and not death.

That's what I want to instill in my kids.....thus, I haven't ruled out spanking. Which is what my original post on this thread said. I'm just not quick to pull out the spanking card.

So....am I hearing right? If your son does "whatever" again after you've already talked with him about it being wrong, you have another talk with him, re-iterating the idea, possibly in a different way so he can get a better idea of it?

Then resorting to spanking as a REALLY last resort....

Sorry, I'm just trying to get it all straight in my head! lol Thanks for being so patient!!

 

[Andry]

So....am I hearing right? If your son does "whatever" again after you've already talked with him about it being wrong, you have another talk with him, re-iterating the idea, possibly in a different way so he can get a better idea of it?

Then resorting to spanking as a REALLY last resort....

Sorry, I'm just trying to get it all straight in my head! lol Thanks for being so patient!!

Yup. Twice. In five years.

Do I expect to again in later years? Of course. But right now, compared with his peers (I know, I shouldn't compare), he's above the curve. So something's working right?

 

[Katydid]

And I would respect your choices and reasonings. And end it there. But what would happen, do you think, if you extended grace totally underserving like an ice cream? You know you kids best, so I'm curious.

My younger two have a natural desire to please Mommy and God, so I imagine that might, and I stress might, be an option. BUT... I can't use it for them simply because I seriously CAN'T use it with our oldest. He, as you can tell by my earlier posts, has some serious problems. And with those problems comes a serious DESIRE (no I'm not kidding he honestly desires to see how much he can) to manipulate others. So, if I did that with him, he would test the right words, the right posture, the right tears, the right everything, so that I would do that again, and again and again. My youngest is learning from him well, so I can see where this would not be great for her either.

 

[Katydid]

Yup. Twice. In five years.

If I may ask, what were the incidences that led to those spankings. I am just wondering where the line is drawn in your book. Is it life threatening behavior, or repeated behavior, or what??