Spanking

[Katydid]

For me, it's the final option. I see in many parents, that it's a first or second option. Why? IMHO, lousy parenting skills more often than not, and not the child.

I have seen too many people who wait to use it for a "last option" and it usually means, "I have gotten so mad, that nothing else is working so I swat". Ok not usually, but I have seen it alot. I don't use spanking as my only resort, but it is also not my last resort. I use it when I feel it fits the misbehavior. I am sorry that I must disagree with your assessment that if it is used as anything but a last resort that the parent is either lazy or dumb, or just suck. We are not lazy, or dumb. We realize that there are certain things that need to be stressed to that degree. The first spanking my oldest got from me (he lived with his bio mom until he was 2) was for biting another child. The first spanking that my middle son got was for trying to stick a pen in a light socket at a hotel. The first spanking my daughter got, was when she bit the cat. So, no, I am not lazy or dumb. I believe that anything that causes a child to either injure themselves or another, is deserving of a spanking. I also believe that blatant defiance is deserving of a spanking. I DON'T believe that every little infraction of the rules is deserving of a spanking but many are.

 

[bliz]

I have found that if I am consistant with spanking for deliberate disobedience, that it rarely occures.

Yes, yes, yes!

 

[bliz]

We can only hope!! lol

Funny....methinks she read this thread when I wasn't looking....had a struggle with bedtime tonight, she kept getting out of bed for like an HOUR and a HALF!!! (excuses like water, potty, etc etc etc) Then lamer & lamer like she wasn't tired, she wanted to watch tv, you get the drift. Finally I told her that "this" was the last time, the next time she got out of bed she would get a spanking. Dontcha know not 5 minutes later she was creeping into the computer room to see what I was doing??? So I said "Remember what mommy said? Let's go back to your room." We went, she got her spanking (well, 2 swats on her hiney), and cried like her heart was breaking "Mommy you spanked me!" I explained I loved her so much but it's important for to listen to mommy & daddy when we ask her to do something. I told her that it's important we get the sleep we need...blah blah blah...then told her if she got out of bed again she'd get another spanking...and she was asleep in 5 minutes!

I'm sure some people will disagree with the route I took, but just wanted to post another example...willful defiance after a warning, that's when I resort to the spankings.

Well, not wanting to second guess you, but I would not call that willful defiance. I would call that disobedience and for me, that would not have been a spanking offense. I would have (If I had all my wits about me!) tried active listening. "You do not want to go to bed, do you? It looks like everything I'm doing is much more interesting and much more fun than going to bed. You want to be with me and you want to have my attention and you like being with me. I like being with you. And you are sorry that today is over becasue today was a good day, wasn't it? We went to the park and had liver for dinner and had fun in the bath. And so it's a little sad that the day is over,and now it's time to go to bed ."

She is not yet able to understand all the conflicting emotions that she has, let alone articulate them. Plus, it is bedtime, so she is tired and her judgement is not the best. When we articulate for them (and she can correct you explain that she did not like the liver but she liked the mashed potatoes) kids feel understood and tiime and time again, I found that being throughly understood really helped them master their emotions and get with the program.

 

[newcreature]

Who said that the blame for teen rebellion and violence is put on spanking? I think there are a lot more things that go into the blame for the violence and teen rebellion, for example the increasing voilence in video games, the lack of a good loving home (spanking or no spanking we all agree that we love them and try our best to raise them in Christian homes), increasing amounts of time where teens are unsupervised (latch-key kids, etc). I don't think spanking or not spanking has to do with any of the increasing violence and I'd like to see any proof that it does along with the source.

Personal experience: Took my son to the pediatrician. He was acting up, and I had told him several times to stop. I finally gave him one swat on the bottom, and when I did this, the pediatricians assistant quickly left the room. When she returned with the pediatrician, I was asked why I hit my child. I explained that I did not hit my child, I spanked him. She then told me that the AAP did not advocate spanking because it causes confusion to the child, and that studies have shown that it also causes anti-social behavior and agreession. I never checked out the studies, but did get 2 books that dealt with disciplining from Christian authors: Shephearding a Childs Heart by Tedd Tripp, and Dare to Discipline by Dr. James Dobson. These books put spanking into perspective for me. I posted this thread because it is also good to gain perspective from other parents that spank. In today's society as a whole, spanking is frowned upon, and can make one question their decision to spank when child is acting out in direct defiance. I think there is a need for it under these circumstances, given that it is done in love, and is thought upon creatively. Meaning: Not the only means for discipline (diversion, time-outs, don't reward for negative behavior, etc., are appropriate) The AAP strongly opposes spanking. Here is their website:http://aap.org. Just enter spanking in the search box and 28 articles support their views.

Recently I was taking a Human growth and development class, and our instructor told the class that spanking would only produce negative results (antisocial behavior, violence,...). When I asked him where he was getting this information from, he said from the American Psychological Association. http://www.apa.org/ Just type spanking in the search box, and 12 articles give differing views, some speaking directly about violence.
I also did a search on AOL and there were several pages relevant to spanking:
http://www.stopspanking.com/ Click on the articles link.
http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/FivePrecepts/spanking.html
http://app1.chinadaily.com.cn/star/2002/0703/he11-4.html

Gotta go for now... hope this is what you wanted.

 

[newcreature]

Who said that the blame for teen rebellion and violence is put on spanking? I think there are a lot more things that go into the blame for the violence and teen rebellion, for example the increasing voilence in video games, the lack of a good loving home (spanking or no spanking we all agree that we love them and try our best to raise them in Christian homes), increasing amounts of time where teens are unsupervised (latch-key kids, etc). I don't think spanking or not spanking has to do with any of the increasing violence and I'd like to see any proof that it does along with the source.

Before i go, i just wanted to clarify that I agree that there is much more to why violence and teen rebellion is on the rise. My point is that there are people who believe that spanking alone causes these things.

 

[erin74]

Thank you so much Katydid for your advice - that is a fantastic idea. I have used that one at lunch before. Sometimes because the poor kid is just too tired, but mainly cause it works! I had never thought to use it for breakfast or dinner though. Makes a lot of sense, especially cause he loves his 'little play' between dinner and bedtime.

I tried to rep you but it said "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Katydid again."

Someone else said to just not give him the meal. We have tried this, but it really doesn't seem to bother him too much, and as he is a tiny little guy, I really think a bit of food would be a good thing. It's not that he's not hungry, food is just not his biggest priority - he would much rather talk or play. If he does go without, it doesn't seem to change his behaviour at the next meal, even though you think it would. Does it mean I should just cut a meal out, or that I am expecting him to eat to much. I don't think so. He doesn't generally tell us if he's hungry - never has really - his behaviour just gets worse and worse and worse.

I think I'll give your thing a go Katydid - right up my guys ally - he hates being in bed - he loves being up and with people. Time out's don't bother him much cause he just looks out the window from his bed (may happen with this too, but longer than a time out I guess). Anyway - thanks again.

Erin

 

[Andry]

I have seen too many people who wait to use it for a "last option" and it usually means, "I have gotten so mad, that nothing else is working so I swat".

Not me.

Ok not usually, but I have seen it alot. I don't use spanking as my only resort, but it is also not my last resort. I use it when I feel it fits the misbehavior.

And what manual did you get this from? I'd like a list of 'spanking misbehaviour' if it helps me raise my child.

I am sorry that I must disagree with your assessment that if it is used as anything but a last resort that the parent is either lazy or dumb, or just suck. We are not lazy, or dumb.

I never suggested YOU were lazy or dumb. And I believe I qualified it that if my opinion doesn't relate to you, to not get offended. Many parents are lazy, dumb, or just suck when it comes to raising kids. Again, if this is not you, wonderful.

We realize that there are certain things that need to be stressed to that degree.

Of course. How that needs to be stressed is debatable. You believe that that's often (sometimes, rarely?) by spanking. If it's working for your kids, by all means. If it's not, then it's not, and more spanking ain't going to solve it. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results. But hey, if what you're doing works, stick with it.

The first spanking my oldest got from me (he lived with his bio mom until he was 2) was for biting another child. The first spanking that my middle son got was for trying to stick a pen in a light socket at a hotel. The first spanking my daughter got, was when she bit the cat. So, no, I am not lazy or dumb.

Again, never said that you wre lazy or dumb. IMO, other than the light socket, the other two misbehaviour don't necessarily deserve an automatic spanking. But hey, I wasn't there, you were.

I believe that anything that causes a child to either injure themselves or another, is deserving of a spanking. I also believe that blatant defiance is deserving of a spanking.

Why? Who told you that? I believe it deserves discipline, which means correction. And I believe you would agree with that, and that spanking is therefore correction to you. I don't necessarily believe that it is in all cases. But it's ok that we disagree.

I DON'T believe that every little infraction of the rules is deserving of a spanking but many are.

Sure. But I'd be interested to know how you've come to conclude what's a spanking violation and what's not.

Lastly, for clarity, I'm not against spanking. Just that many parents are too quick to do so. Again, if this isn't you, wonderful. God bless and have a wonderful day.

 

[Zoomer]

I'm not being boastful, but I've spanked my 5 yo son just twice his whole life. Super-duper kid? No. Solomon as his dad? Far from it. So what's the secret? No real secret. Just countless time and energy and effort learning to parent past the threshold that most parents I know would rather spank for the given situation. And of course a huge dose of grace! And he's turning out to be such a well-balanced, well-adjusted little man.

My children are well aware of how our punishment system works. First time a warning, second timet a timeout, third time a spank and a time out. I have no need to get past a threshold as you put it. There are rules to follow and if they are not followed then it results in a punishment. A boss is not going to get "past the threshold" of an employee being late 5 times in 2 months. He would have warned that employee 4 times and on that 5th time he is gone. The same goes with parenting, there is no negotiating, if the rules are broken, then there are consquences. I think that's more than fair and is not lazy parenting. If I were lazy, I would not give punishment for bad actions at all and let my children do as they wish.

 

[Andry]

My children are well aware of how our punishment system works. First time a warning, second timet a timeout, third time a spank and a time out. I have no need to get past a threshold as you put it. There are rules to follow and if they are not followed then it results in a punishment. A boss is not going to get "past the threshold" of an employee being late 5 times in 2 months. He would have warned that employee 4 times and on that 5th time he is gone.

I don't treat my employees as my kids (and I have a lot of employees). So you're comparing apples to oranges.

And I'm curious: who made the 'rules', as you put it? And I'm not being facetious. On the contrary, with great respect, because if these rules are working for you, then obviously stick with it.

The same goes with parenting, there is no negotiating, if the rules are broken, then there are consquences.

Whatever happened to grace? Isn't it so cool that God doesn't parent as we parent? It's grace that's changed my life - not consequences or judgment. How about you? And when you screw up with God, do you say just give me my punishment, or do you plead for his grace (and promise you won't do that again)?

I think that's more than fair and is not lazy parenting. If I were lazy, I would not give punishment for bad actions at all and let my children do as they wish.

Never suggested you were lazy, so don't get offended.

But ok, so yes, we agree there is punishment as part of our parenting toolbox. But you didn't mention correction. There's a huge difference between punishment and correction. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to correlate punishment as corrective parenting. Again, if I'm mistaken, my bad - my apologies. So how do you correct when you're not punishing?

Further, of course we shouldn't let our children do as they wish. But that isn't the issue. It's the how we do that.

Blessings to you.

 

[bostonlass]

Just as an extra thought - what do others do with bad behaviour at the dinner table - be it breakfast, lunch or dinner. My son (3) is a major wriggler - we have bench seats and he is often found lying on it - he also sings at the top of his voice, shuffles up and down the bench, plays with his food, plays with anything he can get his hands on, anything but eating basically. Oh - and he argues with us, says 'no' to everything, etc, etc. I can handle this with a time out usually - but find that this doesn't work at a meal, as it's just what he's after - an excuse to not eat! So smacking seems to be our only option... but I am not finding it particularly successful at the moment - at meals at any rate. Different if it's his dad of course.

Any suggestions....

At 3 I don't think either of my two were able to sit through a whole dinner. They just weren't there yet developmentally and no amount of discipline would have changed that. To be honest, their tummies are so small at that age that my pediatrician recommended little meals throughout the day, and that is what I did and it worked. I would always set a place for them but I never expected them to sit and stay with us the whole entire meal. They did have to ask to be excused from the table, in whatever way they were able to at that age, but that is all I asked. The older they got the longer they were able to stay. It just happened naturally. Kind of like potty training...if they're not developmentally there yet it's just not going to happen. It may not be what you like or want them to do but sometimes it's just stopping and thinking of what they are capable of.

 

[bostonlass]

had a struggle with bedtime tonight, she kept getting out of bed for like an HOUR and a HALF!!! (excuses like water, potty, etc etc etc) Then lamer & lamer like she wasn't tired, she wanted to watch tv, you get the drift. Finally I told her that "this" was the last time, the next time she got out of bed she would get a spanking. Dontcha know not 5 minutes later she was creeping into the computer room to see what I was doing??? So I said "Remember what mommy said? Let's go back to your room." We went, she got her spanking (well, 2 swats on her hiney), and cried like her heart was breaking "Mommy you spanked me!" I explained I loved her so much but it's important for to listen to mommy & daddy when we ask her to do something. I told her that it's important we get the sleep we need...blah blah blah...then told her if she got out of bed again she'd get another spanking...and she was asleep in 5 minutes!

I'm sure some people will disagree with the route I took, but just wanted to post another example...willful defiance after a warning, that's when I resort to the spankings.

I went through this as I think many of us have. It is aggravating but for me the solution was to do away with naptime. That is when I knew it was time for my second daughter to not get naps anymore...when she started getting out of bed and didn't fall asleep right away. As soon as I did that I had very few problems, maybe one or two instances at the most of them getting out of bed. May want to check the bedtime too and see if it's too early after you get rid of the naps. Sometimes they just plain aren't tired physically and accordingly don't want to lay in a dark room with nothing to do. I know when I'm not tired that's the last thing I want to do so I read a book , etc. I can only imagine what a little child goes through. Another tip for me, but this was for being scared of the monsters, was to get a cool nightlite for them.

When they did get up after all of the above was tried though, I'd lay with them for a few minutes and then give them a kiss and a hug and tell them that I'd be in in 3 minutes to check on them. Then in 3 minutes if they were still awake I'd say I'd be in in 5 minutes, etc...... usually after the second check-in they'd be sound asleep. Sometimes they just want the assurance that you haven't gone out of the house. Again, I would never spank a child for this but that's just my way and not everyone's way is right or wrong. Mine does take a little bit more time out of my night but that's life and pretty soon they'll be out and gone with their own family and I'll be thinking back to those "back in 3 minute" nights and wish they were here again.

When all else fails and my temper is on the rise, which is perfectly natural, I take a deep breath, take a "mommy time out" and ask "what would Jesus do". In every single instance I cannot envision Jesus who died for us on the cross and who loves use with every fiber of His being spanking us. Like someone else says He does just the opposite and leads us gently and lovingly in the correct path and forgives us for things much bigger than getting out of bed because we're not tired.

 

[Katydid]

And what manual did you get this from? I'd like a list of 'spanking misbehaviour' if it helps me raise my child.

Well, I didn't get it from a manual. See, I don't NEED a manual to tell me what my children need to be taught. I am their mother. And where I might want IDEAS or SUGGESTIONS, I won't raise my children by a manual, that would take the love and caring out of my parenting. BUT, I do read the bible, and I see what I want my children to learn. What qualities, and morals I want them to take away from me, and follow when they grow up and leave home.

Why? Who told you that? I believe it deserves discipline, which means correction.

Noone, I prayed, I studied, and I read books that gave me advice, but mostly, I went with my Maternal Insticts. Which are apparently under attack by many sources who try to tell us that our instincts are completely wrong.

But I'd be interested to know how you've come to conclude what's a spanking violation and what's not.

Well, my husband and I discussed it, studied, took advice, and prayed. But, overall, we went with what our insticts and our knowledge of our children told us to do.


See you are supposedly innocently stating things, and yet you said in your first post that sooooo many parents who use spanking are dumb, lazy and suck. That right there is an attack on anyone whose method you don't agree with. You are basically saying that you have the right to say that parents suck if it suits you. You are not innocently posting in my opinion, especially after your last few posts. But here goes, I have some questions for you.


Who do you think should make the rules in a family?

Who do you think should decide what is a spanking offense and not?

Do you think that children should make their own rules?

I am asking these questions because I am truly wondering what your philosophy on parenting is now that I have seen what you asked of my post. You ask where I got this idea or that. Well, here is another question for you...

Who told you that spanking should only be a last resort?

What manual did you read that taught you that you should use other methods?

Sorry if I sound rude, I don't mean to, but I am curious as to why you would question who makes the rules in a house, or who says when spankings occur. Of course the parents decide. But I am curious for your answers to my questions.

 

[bostonlass]

I never checked out the studies, but did get 2 books that dealt with disciplining from Christian authors: Shephearding a Childs Heart by Tedd Tripp, and Dare to Discipline by Dr. James Dobson. These books put spanking into perspective for me. I posted this thread because it is also good to gain perspective from other parents that spank. In today's society as a whole, spanking is frowned upon, and can make one question their decision to spank when child is acting out in direct defiance. I think there is a need for it under these circumstances, given that it is done in love, and is thought upon creatively. Meaning: Not the only means for discipline (diversion, time-outs, don't reward for negative behavior, etc., are appropriate) The AAP strongly opposes spanking. Here is their website:http://aap.org. Just enter spanking in the search box and 28 articles support their views.

Recently I was taking a Human growth and development class, and our instructor told the class that spanking would only produce negative results (antisocial behavior, violence,...). When I asked him where he was getting this information from, he said from the American Psychological Association. http://www.apa.org/ Just type spanking in the search box, and 12 articles give differing views, some speaking directly about violence.
I also did a search on AOL and there were several pages relevant to spanking:
http://www.stopspanking.com/ Click on the articles link.
http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/FivePrecepts/spanking.html
http://app1.chinadaily.com.cn/star/2002/0703/he11-4.html

Gotta go for now... hope this is what you wanted.

Thanks for all of that good info!!!! I guess my next question would be, since so many physicians seem to think it's harmful to a child to physically discipline, why are so many still doing it? I know that doctors don't always know everything but there are so many many organizations that agree, including DSS, you know? What do they know that most people who spank don't?

I found it interesting that in 2004, the Methodist Church announced that a parent should not spank a child. http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin11.htm

I know many base their spanking actions on the "rod" referrance in the bible but just as many refer to Matthew 18:6 "Whoever harms one of these little ones who believe in Me, it would be better for Him that a millstone hung about his neck and he drowned in the sea"

 

[bostonlass]

Noone, I prayed, I studied, and I read books that gave me advice, but mostly, I went with my Maternal Insticts. Which are apparently under attack by many sources who try to tell us that our instincts are completely wrong.

See you are supposedly innocently stating things, and yet you said in your first post that sooooo many parents who use spanking are dumb, lazy and suck. That right there is an attack on anyone whose method you don't agree with. You are basically saying that you have the right to say that parents suck if it suits you. You are not innocently posting in my opinion, especially after your last few posts. But here goes, I have some questions for you.


Who do you think should make the rules in a family?

Who do you think should decide what is a spanking offense and not?

Do you think that children should make their own rules?

I am asking these questions because I am truly wondering what your philosophy on parenting is now that I have seen what you asked of my post. You ask where I got this idea or that. Well, here is another question for you...

Who told you that spanking should only be a last resort?

What manual did you read that taught you that you should use other methods?

Sorry if I sound rude, I don't mean to, but I am curious as to why you would question who makes the rules in a house, or who says when spankings occur. Of course the parents decide. But I am curious for your answers to my questions.

I agree that the poster came off as not too nice using the words dumb and suck, etc.

I'm just replying to give you my experience and with me, I had no one manual but rather took the "it takes a village to rasie a child" approach. I had read many books about raising children, took advice from my mom and other family members, read the bible passages that related to children and the parental role and I try to listen to my pediatrician since she is the most up to date on all of the current studies. After all that I do what I feel is God's will for me that day in raising my daughters and if at the end of the day I make a mistake, I ask for God's forgiveness and I try to learn from it.

As far as what a spanking offense is for our family, we decided up front that nothing is. At that point we had to research the alternatives.

Instincts are great and all but I think that it's very wise to run those instincts past a few other people. Sometimes what my instincts tell me to do are so way off base I have to wonder where they came from and normally after some pondering it happens that they came not from God but out of me reacting to a situation in a hurry. I try hard each day to act rather than to re-act. The difference to me is that time out for myself to think before I do something I may or maynot have to ask God's forgiveness for that night.

 

[Zoomer]

And I'm curious: who made the 'rules', as you put it? And I'm not being facetious. On the contrary, with great respect, because if these rules are working for you, then obviously stick with it.

My husband and I make the rules. They are based on teaching what is socially acceptable and what is not. They are also to teach that in life there are rules to follow, and consquences if we do not follow these rules. I am not a tough, rigid, or demanding parent. I am quite easy going. Both of my children respect me, and try their best to follow the household rules.

Whatever happened to grace? Isn't it so cool that God doesn't parent as we parent? It's grace that's changed my life - not consequences or judgment.

I am not judging my children, but it is ignorant not to think that our behavior does not have consquences. I am not talking about our relationship with God, but with our relationship with our children. They are two very different things. God is already in our lives, we know what is right and wrong. When we have children, we have to teach them what is right and wrong. I am not going to say, "Aww poor thing, you kicked Billy, I forgive you." I am going to tell him, "That is not appropriate behavior. It hurt Billy, you must apologize, and stand in the corner for 5 minutes." Through this children learn what is right and wrong and learn about humility and respect.

How about you? And when you screw up with God, do you say just give me my punishment, or do you plead for his grace (and promise you won't do that again)?

I do not believe that God punishes those that have faith in Him. I believe our conditions in life are result of a sinful world and the consquences of our own bad choices (that's why one must teach responsibility and consquence of actions). I do not plead for grace because I have full confidence in His unconditional love and His promise that if we repent our sins that they are forgiven.

 

[andiesmama]

Well, not wanting to second guess you, but I would not call that willful defiance. I would call that disobedience and for me, that would not have been a spanking offense. I would have (If I had all my wits about me!) tried active listening. "You do not want to go to bed, do you? It looks like everything I'm doing is much more interesting and much more fun than going to bed. You want to be with me and you want to have my attention and you like being with me. I like being with you. And you are sorry that today is over becasue today was a good day, wasn't it? We went to the park and had liver for dinner and had fun in the bath. And so it's a little sad that the day is over,and now it's time to go to bed ." .

Oh, trust me...we had that conversation! lol We talked about the day, what we did, but now it's over and we had "such a big day" that now it's time to sleep and get our rest so we can play more tomorrow. Of course she agreed with me, said she'd stay in bed & go to sleep...then was promptly up & out of bed within the next 5 minutes. That's when it turned into willfully defying/disobeying me & I had to move to the next level.

 

[Addicted2~Jesus]

I really can't stand these threads on spanking as the turn into long arguments taking sides for and against.

But I couldn't resist any longer (I waited 4 pages).....

I have to say, up until this post there wasn't any arguements goin on that I could see, aside from one poster that questioned a few "spankin parents" ideas, she disagreed with others and then it appeared to be settled. You sir came on the thread an I have to admit I took your comments and insinuations to mean that any parent who used physical disicpline on their children to be dumb, lazy, or not parenting. I personnaly disagree with this.

I also disagree with anyone who thinks that God doesn't spank His children. If God has never reached down grabbed you by th scruff of the neck an spanked your bottom then I can only say it's cause ya hadn't screwd up enough. Cause I've had my bottom redden by the Lord. I've screwd up an I know God has spanked me. A lovin father would do nuthin less then to correct the actions of His children.

All throughout the Bible God disicplines His children, for example Moses was not allowed to enter the promise land, God didn't bend em over his knee an spank em but one could relate the two I believe.

I's a lil taken aback when you asked who makes the rules in your family, to me that is a bit of a no brainer, God left His word for us to use and we decide what it an isn't accpetable in our families. To many, far far to many ppl rely on "society" or "government" or "even a author of some book" to decide what we should an shouldn't do in our families. To me this is th EXACT problem with our families, we're all tryin to please everone an all we do is screw oursef's an our familes over.

If you don't spank that's your deal an I could careless, what I do care bout is folks who think that cause one spanks then they are abusin their children or not parentin them. Physical discomfort is a great corrective action. Is it the only corrective action? Of course not, but there's also nuthin wrong with it. One who touched a fire an burnt their hand would know not to touch fire again, why? It wasn't cause someone told em, it was cause they burned their hand an know that it doesn't feel good. Same thin with anythin else. If you hit your brother/sister etc an get spanked your not as likly to do it again simply because the sting of pain on th butt is a nice reminder.

I agree with Katydid, I do not spank as a last resort nor is it the first. But there comes a time where each of us must discern in that situation what requires what. Th example bout sleepin, Kat will go through this from time to time, we give two warnins an the second warnin is th threat of a spank, I think I've spanked er twice in 3 years for this and it hasn't happened in a good year. She knows what a spank is an knows she doesn't want it so she better straighten up. Consitancy is what makes this one work, she knows she can push buttons until the second warnin after that comes the spank.

Andry, you sited the example that you've only spanked your son twice in his five years an I'm sure you think he's a fine boy and has no disicpline problems. If I were to look at your son, would I say the same thing? That's th problem with thins, you may think he's fine I may think he needs his butt busted. When we as parents start relyin on what someone else thinks we screw up. As parents we must decide for oursef's an our families what is best. I'm not talkin bout abuse or thins over the top but it's been my experience when we've gone out somewhere an I see kids jes bein out there somewhere I liken it to poor disicpline. It's our jobs to keep our children in check an raise em to be adults. A horse for example will run and go where they want if you don't keep your hands on the reins, it's exactly the same with children, they will do what they want, go where they want if we don't keep a steady hand on the reins.

A lil physical discomfort is a better reminder of what to an not to do I think then always relyin on thins like time outs er what have you, I am not opposed to thins of that nature but find they don't always produce the desired result, I could careless bout timeouts er sittin in a corner er anythin else when I was a kid, I'm jes like that other child, I have alot more fun in my own head then I ever do out in the world, an since I cain't hardly stand ppl for me to be alone was jes like I was gittin a reward. But if I screwd up, espcially if I knew I was gonna get it was a much more deterant then bein grounded er anythin else.

 

[Andry]

You'll need to read all my posts. I'll say it again so it's very clear: I'm not against spanking. But I do disagree with a lot of parents who use spanking improperly, and have little or no inclination that there are alternatives to spanking that is as effective so that the times that we do need to spank are far and few.

I mean, if we could as parents reduce spanking our kids and are effective, why wouldn't we want to learn about it?

But what do I see, generally speaking (read: not directed to anyone specifically), the examples often cited of when these parents spank their kids, IMHO, do not warrant a spanking. Because I take that same scenario with my own son, without resorting to spanking, with the same outcome - a corrected behaviour (or at least that's the intent).

So often there are other (read: better?) ways we can raise our kids without having to constantly resort to spanking. So as a parent, why wouldn't we want to know or find out or learn what that is?

Because often WE as parents are dumb, lazy, or we do suck. And note, previously when I wrote the same statement, I included myself as WE parents; so I don't know why some of you got your nose out of joint and offended. I suck in a lot of things. I'm not offended. If you - generically speaking - don't suck as a parent, well, wonderful.

So with the above qualification, here goes, with respect:

I have to say, up until this post there wasn't any arguements goin on that I could see, aside from one poster that questioned a few "spankin parents" ideas, she disagreed with others and then it appeared to be settled. You sir came on the thread an I have to admit I took your comments and insinuations to mean that any parent who used physical disicpline on their children to be dumb, lazy, or not parenting. I personnaly disagree with this.

See above. There was no insinuation, and I was explicit on that. It was matter of factly. Just look at all those 'other kids' we all know because of lousy parenting. And again, if this doesn't apply to you, don't take it as such.

But if this did sound like I mean you, I sincerely apologize. Please forgive me.

I also disagree with anyone who thinks that God doesn't spank His children. If God has never reached down grabbed you by th scruff of the neck an spanked your bottom then I can only say it's cause ya hadn't screwd up enough. Cause I've had my bottom redden by the Lord. I've screwd up an I know God has spanked me. A lovin father would do nuthin less then to correct the actions of His children.

All throughout the Bible God disicplines His children, for example Moses was not allowed to enter the promise land, God didn't bend em over his knee an spank em but one could relate the two I believe.

Again, see my first line. I never said or implied God doesn't spank. Your Biblical examples are fine and relevant and something we can apply in our lives. Thank you for sharing that.

What I did say was, 'isn't it cool that God doesn't parent as we do'....or sometihng along those lines (I'm too lazy to scroll down). For clarity, what I meant by that was, God often gives us more grace than we (and "we" includes me) give our own kids when it comes down to discipline, correction, and/or spanking.

I's a lil taken aback when you asked who makes the rules in your family, to me that is a bit of a no brainer, God left His word for us to use and we decide what it an isn't accpetable in our families. To many, far far to many ppl rely on "society" or "government" or "even a author of some book" to decide what we should an shouldn't do in our families. To me this is th EXACT problem with our families, we're all tryin to please everone an all we do is screw oursef's an our familes over.

And the answers a few others posted are great answers.....they prayed about it, discussed with their spouse, read Scripture, read books as a resource, and from experience of what may/may not be acceptable in our society, etc. etc. I think that's great. Some parent I know personally have not taken any effort trying to be a good parent, but somehow it automatically happens by osmosis or other mystical way. IMHO, paternal or maternal instinct carries only so far, and many times offbase. I think another posted stated this sentiment too. So my question was not facetious in its intent at all.

If you don't spank that's your deal an I could careless, what I do care bout is folks who think that cause one spanks then they are abusin their children or not parentin them. Physical discomfort is a great corrective action. Is it the only corrective action? Of course not, but there's also nuthin wrong with it. One who touched a fire an burnt their hand would know not to touch fire again, why? It wasn't cause someone told em, it was cause they burned their hand an know that it doesn't feel good. Same thin with anythin else. If you hit your brother/sister etc an get spanked your not as likly to do it again simply because the sting of pain on th butt is a nice reminder.

Again, as above, I never said or implied I don't spank. So that's a moot point. And for clarity, I don't believe spanking correctly is abuse or bad parenting.

I agree with Katydid, I do not spank as a last resort nor is it the first. But there comes a time where each of us must discern in that situation what requires what. Th example bout sleepin, Kat will go through this from time to time, we give two warnins an the second warnin is th threat of a spank, I think I've spanked er twice in 3 years for this and it hasn't happened in a good year. She knows what a spank is an knows she doesn't want it so she better straighten up. Consitancy is what makes this one work, she knows she can push buttons until the second warnin after that comes the spank.

Of course each parent has to discern for themselves as they know their children better than anyone. I believe I was clear that I, ie. me, and not you necessarily, use spanking as a last resort. I was also clear that it's not because nothing else is working either. If how you're raising your kids is working, by all means continue.

Andry, you sited the example that you've only spanked your son twice in his five years an I'm sure you think he's a fine boy and has no disicpline problems. If I were to look at your son, would I say the same thing? That's th problem with thins, you may think he's fine I may think he needs his butt busted. When we as parents start relyin on what someone else thinks we screw up. As parents we must decide for oursef's an our families what is best. I'm not talkin bout abuse or thins over the top but it's been my experience when we've gone out somewhere an I see kids jes bein out there somewhere I liken it to poor disicpline. It's our jobs to keep our children in check an raise em to be adults. A horse for example will run and go where they want if you don't keep your hands on the reins, it's exactly the same with children, they will do what they want, go where they want if we don't keep a steady hand on the reins.

We all look at other peoples kids different. So I think we agree on at least that. And I'm not posting to say who's got the better kid. And yes, I also agree, as I've stated earlier, each parent needs to discern what's best for their kids, and yes, we're not talking, even remotely, about abuse or accusations or insinuations of abuse.

A lil physical discomfort is a better reminder of what to an not to do I think then always relyin on thins like time outs er what have you, I am not opposed to thins of that nature but find they don't always produce the desired result, I could careless bout timeouts er sittin in a corner er anythin else when I was a kid, I'm jes like that other child, I have alot more fun in my own head then I ever do out in the world, an since I cain't hardly stand ppl for me to be alone was jes like I was gittin a reward. But if I screwd up, espcially if I knew I was gonna get it was a much more deterant then bein grounded er anythin else.

Ok. Each child is different. For example, mine is a pedantic talker. A really bad punishment for me to dish out is to have him not say a word for five minutes. That would almost kill him (figure of speech).

Lastly, for clarity, I don't take what you've said in any shape or form as offensive. This is about discussion, and not always about agreeing completely with each other. So please don't take what I've written to be directly personally to you, as I don't know you at all.

But if you are offended, please forgive me.

Blessings to you.[/FONT]

 

[Andry]

See you are supposedly innocently stating things, and yet you said in your first post that sooooo many parents who use spanking are dumb, lazy and suck. That right there is an attack on anyone whose method you don't agree with. You are basically saying that you have the right to say that parents suck if it suits you. You are not innocently posting in my opinion, especially after your last few posts. But here goes, I have some questions for you.

You shouldn't exaggerate, or at least take the time to get it right, otherwise it's not fair. Here's what I wrote in my first post, in quotes:

"But admit it....some of us need to go to parenting school because we just suck. Or dumb. Or lazy."

So where did I say, "....sooooo many parents who use spankign are dumb, lazy, and suck."? And notice I purposefully used "us" to include me?

I think you need to retract those false statements. So the rest of your paragraph becomes irrelevant, because I didn't basically say anything. It's you who are implying or insinuating something that I did not.

As for your questions, I'll make an attempt to answer them succinctly:

Who do you think should make the rules in a family?

Ultimately God does. Through his principles because Scripture does not cover every scenario and predicament that our children create or find themselves in.

Who do you think should decide what is a spanking offense and not?

The parents, with a lot of help and advice from other resources, such as God, the Bible, our parents, people or friends we respect, and what we'd call the professionals such as child experts and the like. But in the final analysis, the parent should discern for themselves.

Do you think that children should make their own rules?

Of course not. Did I imply that? If I did, I'm sorry.

I am asking these questions because I am truly wondering what your philosophy on parenting is now that I have seen what you asked of my post. You ask where I got this idea or that. Well, here is another question for you...

Who told you that spanking should only be a last resort?

Have you heard or know about grace-based parenting or grace-based discipline? I'm not talking about the franchised 'grace-based parenting', but they do share the same principles.

What manual did you read that taught you that you should use other methods?

As previous answer.

Sorry if I sound rude, I don't mean to, but I am curious as to why you would question who makes the rules in a house, or who says when spankings occur. Of course the parents decide. But I am curious for your answers to my questions.

You don't sound rude at all, so no need to be sorry. I'm not offended in any way. Likewise please don't be offended with me. I believe I've responded accordingly and sufficiently. If not, let me know.

Blessings.

 

[newcreature]

Have you heard or know about grace-based parenting or grace-based discipline? I'm not talking about the franchised 'grace-based parenting', but they do share the same principles.
Blessings.

What is grace-based parenting? Are there websites that you could direct me to? Just curious. Thanks