Spanking

[Andry]

What is grace-based parenting? Are there websites that you could direct me to? Just curious. Thanks

Over the last few years my attitude toward discipline has completely changed. In my history discipline equaled punishment. If you were disciplined that’s what it meant – you were punished.

I didn’t realize that in God’s eyes discipline did not equal punishment. Discipline equals correction, which is a very different thing altogether.

But you have to understand something about the heart of God. When God so loved the world, was the world behaving correctly? No, the the world was behaving very incorrectly, and very inappropriately. And so this is how God disciplined the world: God so loved the world, that He took away their freedom, He sent them to their room, beat them severely.

Of course not. God so loved the world that He gave. I learned the God-method of discipline – that it was difficult to do because it did not make sense to the natural mind, but I learned how to discipline through giving.

Instead of taking my son and putting him in his room, but taking my son and having a few words of correction and about what the problem was, and then taking him to watch a movie.

And I found that mercy triumphs over judgment every time. I found that grace will change more things than punishment ever will.

And most people do not come to salvation because of the threat of God’s punishment, they come because of God’s grace. And it’s grace that changed your life.

We have to start to see these things, from a different perspective. So I have a whole process now to understand how you discipline through giving, when all we understand is discipline through taking. Which is not the Spirit of God.

Now the qualifier........ It's worked for my family. It doesn't mean it automatically works for your family, or that you're not a good parent if you don't employ grace-based discipline. To each their own as parents to determine what works best for your own children. So no flames.

Here's a start:

http://www.familymatters.net/GraceBasedBook.asp

Blessings.

 

[andiesmama]

taking my son and having a few words of correction and about what the problem was, and then taking him to watch a movie.

Your post was truly thought-provoking! But I have an honest, curious question about the above statement....

How old is your son? Did this work for you when he was really young (read: my daughter is 2 1/2)?

I honestly don't know if it would work for me to sit her down, talk to her about what she did wrong & why it was wrong then, in essence (how I see it, anyways), reward her for it (read: taking her to a movie, to the playground, whatever). Am I seeing it the wrong way?

Just curious as to your approach with the age thing. Thanks!

 

[Andry]

Andiesmama,

My son's just turned 5. Because of him the goal posts of my life have changed. God is so good.

My wife and I have successful professional careers partly because we waited seven years into our marriage until we had our son. I thought parenting would be a breeze. But it was a difficult pregnancy, and he was an unexpected premmie (sp?). I have never been so afraid in my life, yet God entrusted us with this little one. It was since that time that I searched to be not just a good parent, but a better Christian. To paraphrase from Jack Nicholson in As Good as it Gets......"My son made me want to be a better man."

Discovering grace-based discipline was a slow and evolving process (and not by just buying a book). We applied the principles with our son the moment he became cognizant and self-aware. Each child will be different, but if I recall correctly, he was just under 3 yo. You will need to determine that yourself with your own daughter of course.

And like I've said, it may not necessarily work for you. But I can say that with us, it's been a tremendous blessing and highly effective.

I hope you will at least look into it before forumlating a verdict for the applicability in your own household.

Blessings.

 

[andiesmama]

Just under three? Hmmmm....just the age Andie is now....makes me really think, you know?

God works in mysterious ways, that's for sure....I think it would be smart for me to look into this.

Thanks for the info & the link!

PS...we almost have the same story...we were married for almost 5 years before we had Andie, I had alot of problems during the pregnancy, and she was a preemie as well, born less than 5 pounds!! Scary, isn't it?? But with God's grace we (and she) made it through!!

 

[Addicted2~Jesus]

I don't think you answered andiesmama really, cause I'm really rather curious bout this as well.

Your statement of discilipin your son was to the effect, or how I took it, was he messes up, you talk to em bout how an why etc then you take em to th movies. That sounds to me to be an award.

As a kid I'd have been gittin in trouble all th time if I could jes get a talkin to then get sumthin for my trouble.

I see your logic to be tremendously flawed, I don't think I really agree with "grace-based" disicpline, in fact I am disdainful of the use of the word grace in it. IMO parents who don't disicpline their children might as well be absuein them. To clarify my position, yes God sent His son, an yes He gave us a gift, an yes the world is bein bad etc ..... but now then, what happens if one doesn't accept Christ? They gonna burn in hell as a punishment for their sins. See I feel as though your comparin apples an oranges here.

So I guess what I'm askin, an I think it's what andiesmama was askin to is, do you reward your child for bein bad?

 

[andiesmama]

So I guess what I'm askin, an I think it's what andiesmama was askin to is, do you reward your child for bein bad?

Thanks A2J!! I got sidetracked...which is normal for me during dinner, Andie hanging on my chair, hubby just getting home...blah blah blah!!

That was kind of my concern....even if I do decide to try it, I still wonder if it's not somehow rewarding for bad behaviour?

Andry...do you talk to your son & then "always" take him out to a movie or some other reward? Or is that just in some instances...sometimes you just leave it with talking it out?

I'm just I guess confused about that part specifially as to the rewarding thing after the "discussion"....

Thanks & sorry for all the questions but I'm honestly curious....

 

[Andry]

I don't think you answered andiesmama really, cause I'm really rather curious bout this as well.

You're right. First I read her question was..."How old is your son?" So let me include it here.

But please understand that it's not just an ad hoc arbitrary spontaneous 'program' or 'teaching'. It's a paradigm shift from how many of us have been taught in our own childhood. Like I said, it was very difficult at first for me to get around the whole concept. I will not be so ignorant to suggest that you will 'get it' by just reading my posts (and not to suggest you're ignorant; more because I would not articulate it enough on a forum to do so - ie. find out about it for yourself and give it a fair shake.)

Your statement of discilipin your son was to the effect, or how I took it, was he messes up, you talk to em bout how an why etc then you take em to th movies. That sounds to me to be an award.

Nope. You've missed the most salient and critical point. Correction. Correction. Once he's accepted correction. Grace is extended. I don't reward him at all. If it's not corrected, we go back working on it until he understands. If it doesn't work for your kids, then obviously don't use it.

As a kid I'd have been gittin in trouble all th time if I could jes get a talkin to then get sumthin for my trouble.

I see your logic to be tremendously flawed, I don't think I really agree with "grace-based" disicpline, in fact I am disdainful of the use of the word grace in it. IMO parents who don't disicpline their children might as well be absuein them. To clarify my position, yes God sent His son, an yes He gave us a gift, an yes the world is bein bad etc ..... but now then, what happens if one doesn't accept Christ? They gonna burn in hell as a punishment for their sins. See I feel as though your comparin apples an oranges here.

Grace is illogical. Whether we accept Christ or not, our sin is deserving of death. But Christ extended grace in order that we might not see death. But we still deserve it (death I mean).

So you're absolutely right, that if one doesn't accept Christ, then it's damnation as the consequence. But if one does accept Christ, what happens to the consquence? And it's all because of his grace.

So if I'm able to discipline my son by correcting him....what should I do then? I can make him suffer the consequences still.....or I can cancel the consequence and give him something that he totally doesn't deserve....which is called grace.

So how do you define discipline? I define it as correction. So it begs the question: how do you correct? If correction is punishment and works for your kids.....then continue. If correction is not punishment, please enlighten me on how you correct your kids. If correction is a spanking, and it works, again, continue.

You don't have to agree with me

So I guess what I'm askin, an I think it's what andiesmama was askin to is, do you reward your child for bein bad?

I think I did as above.

But please understand that the movie thing was cited as just one example. So don't think I do that all the time. More often than not, it could be as simple as a big hug or a smile after the correction part of it. He now rarely misbehaves, but he will again, and again. This is a life long process and I will continue to correct him and on occasion spank him.

Lastly, have a look at the link. Tim Kimmel is a far better expert than me to help you better understand.

Blessings.

 

[Andry]

Thanks A2J!! I got sidetracked...which is normal for me during dinner, Andie hanging on my chair, hubby just getting home...blah blah blah!!

That was kind of my concern....even if I do decide to try it, I still wonder if it's not somehow rewarding for bad behaviour?

Andry...do you talk to your son & then "always" take him out to a movie or some other reward? Or is that just in some instances...sometimes you just leave it with talking it out?

I'm just I guess confused about that part specifially as to the rewarding thing after the "discussion"....

Thanks & sorry for all the questions but I'm honestly curious....

Andiesmama, you posted while I was answering Addicted2Jesus. I believe I did answer, so have a look-see.

As for the discussion, sometimes it's a great big long drawn out lecture by me. Other times he will explain to himself what he did wrong. It's not always instantaneous. If I'm still angry, I will keep quite for some time while he ponders his fate in his room or wherever. But the process is to help him get to the place of repentance, to reconciliation, to restitution (where he will make it right, such as if he broke something, he needs to pay it back from his allowance), and then to restoration (of the relationship between him and me or him and his mom, etc.).

Then - and not always - give him something he doesn't derserve. Often it's restoration right there in the midst of his tears with a big hug. Other times, it's something else. Every scenario is different.

Spoilt child? Far from it. Devious and manipulative? A big fat no. Well-adjusted and well-mannered? Absolutely.

And again, it may or may not work for you.

 

[andiesmama]

Thanks! I'm understanding it a little more...I'm going to check out that link as well to do some further investigation...when/if I have the time! lol

 

[erin74]

I do have one question about this - and I'm not trying to be argumentative. I am concerned that the teaching is that God only gives us good things when we have restored our relationship with him. That is - we sin, we ask for forgiveness, he gives good things - going by how your discipline technique works as an example of God. Now in my experience, and my understanding of the bible, this is not how God works. It was while we were still sinners that Christ died for the ungodly. Grace was given first, and then the law - ie the Israelites were delivered from Egypt, then the law was given. My understanding of grace is that it is not at all linked to our repentence. Is this reflected in your discipline technique? If your son is not repentent does he ever experience the 'reward' bit?

I am just trying to understand - not be argumentative. I would think if you did reward before repentence that that would make it hard for him to understand obviously. But is this truly reflective of biblical grace - I'm not so sure????

Erin

 

[erin74]

Just an update.

My hubby did the breaky thing this morning and did the you'll go to bed if you don't eat thing. Just for clarity - we aren't expecting our son to sit through our meal times - if we all eat together we don't expect him to sit while we eat - our main problem is he won't eat.

So anyway - usually at breakfast he eats maybe one piece of toast or a little bit of cereal. This morning, after understanding that he was going to go back to bed, he ate a piece of toast and 1 1/2 weetbix - no argument. It was brilliant - now I just have to hope he will do it for me too!

So thanks again Katydid - fantastic advice!

Erin

 

[andiesmama]

Isn't it great when we find new things that actually work for us?? (well, for awhile anyways! lol)

Glad it's working out for you!

 

[Michael Angelo]

My daughter is 17. She has never been spanked. At one time I believed it to be an appropriate element of discipline. I no longer believe that. GOD bless you.

 

[Katydid]

Nope. You've missed the most salient and critical point. Correction. Correction. Once he's accepted correction. Grace is extended. I don't reward him at all. If it's not corrected, we go back working on it until he understands. If it doesn't work for your kids, then obviously don't use it.

Here is my issue of this form of grace, and I just randomly picked on quote so you knew it was addressed to this issue, so this statement of yours isn't necessarily the one in question.

Okay, the wages of sin is death. Yet, we do not die because of God's grace and forgiveness. YET, we are still obligated to submit to the authorities. SO.... if I steal, I may very well go and tell the judge that I am sorry, and that I know I have done wrong, but, the most the judge will do is give me a LESSER sentence. NOT reward me for learning.

My point is, we are commanded to be submissive to the authorities, in a family, the authorities are the parents. Now, teaching my children God's grace and love is my first and most important job, but NOT my ONLY job. I also must teach them how to survive this life in submission to the authorities. They must understand that even though they learn from their mistakes, they must still accept responsibility for their actions. I extend a large amount of grace to my children. All of my children know not to touch things when we go into a store. If they touch something, technically, I SHOULD immediately discipline them, but I give them at least two warnings before doing so. This is grace, I have given them the opportunity to correct their behavior, when it is not necessary or required. This is just one small example of grace that is shown by most parents. BUT, I refuse to tell them, OK you say the right words and tell me you understand you misbehaved and won't do it again, and you won't have any punishment. This to me is setting them up for failure when they enter adulthood. How will they react when pulled over by a cop and given a ticket. They will tell the cop, "I understand I shouldn't have sped, I was in a hurry to pick up my kid from school and I know that this is not a real reason to speed." Yet the cop says, you have already had two warnings, here is your ticket. The kid won't know how to react to the fact that he MUST pay the fine regardless of how much he learned AFTER his misbehavior. I need to teach my children how to take responsibility for their actions, and accept their punishment gracefully, knowing that the next time, they won't make the same mistake. I don't know if I made much sense, but my basic point is this. I must ensure that my children know how to handle consequences even after they have learned from their mistake. The consequences will cement in their mind what and why they did wrong. This way, they are prepared as an adult to take responsibility for their actions and accept the consequences that are given.

 

[Andry]

Katydid,

To hopefully help you better understand, check out this link, read the resource links, FAQ, and web links, and let us know your thoughts afterwards.

http://www.aolff.org/articles.htm

I grew up in a military home, middle child of five kids. I know about following 'the rules of law' and the consequences of violation. That's why GBD was very difficult for me at first, but I sincerely believe - at least for my family - this is the way God wants us to go with our son. It would appear you too are struggling with the seeming irrationality of 'this form of grace' - exactly how I thought initially.

Blessings.

 

[Katydid]

Step 5: The Bear Hug.

Stand behind your child and wrap your arms over her shoulders and across her chest. Hold her arms with your hands if you are concerned about her striking out. Squat down to her level and speak gently in her ear that you are helping her stop herself and that you will let her go when she can stop herself. Gentle pressure on her shoulders can keep her from kicking or attempting to run from you. This is not a punishment. It is providing outside boundaries for a child who lacks internal boundaries.

You do realize that this method is used for children with SERIOUS rage disorders? Simply for two reasons, it prevents them from hurting themselves, and takes all control away so that they learn to let go and stop raging. Do you also realize that those same psychologists who taught me to do this to my stepson for a RAGE disorder, highly suggested NOT doing it to a child who ISN'T raging because it starts the fight/flight mechanism and can CAUSE rage? The reason you do it with enraged children is so they learn to CONTROL their fight/flight. A healthy, normal child not raging will feel attacked by this. OK that is only what 3 psychologists taught us when dealing with my stepson who had a serious RAGE disorder. I would NEVER use this method with a normal child. It can be VERY traumatic, and if you have ever used it with a child who had emotional problems, you may seriously reconsider this method.​

 

[Addicted2~Jesus]

http://www.aolff.org/articles.htm

I am sincerely shocked by what I read at this link, truly shocked. I fear for folks who will buy into sumthin that they truly don't understand. This doesn't mean I am knockin ones beliefs or anythin but what I do mean is folks accept sumthin as doctrine simply because someone sticks a bunch of letters behind thier name. Folks never go and look it up for themsef's.

For example:

The bible is unusually silent on parenting issues except to charge parents with the responsibility to raise their children unto the Lord and to grant them the authority to do so. How to parent is left up to each parent and I believe the best choice is to model our parenting after the style of Father God. My book discusses this idea in greater detail and also provides tools for parenting in a non-punitive way.

If one believes this then one has not read the bible from cover to cover. The entire bible is completely full of parentin issues, after all God is our father an our parent. I did a quick search for references in the bible and ended up with 1,515 references to children, yes of course a bunch of those are going to be subjects like the children of Iseral and children of God etc but Proverbs for example is full of teachin's of what a child should do, what a father should do along with relationships for spouses an the like. To make a statement like the bible is unusually silent on a topic normally seems to me that th bible didn't say what one wanted it to therefore they say sumthin like this an all those who have never read Gods word simply takes it at face value.

Jesus told a parable about a servant who was forgiven much and then refused to forgive another who owed him much less. We are the servant who has been forgiven much. Forgive your fellow servant, your child, who owes you the debt of not having come when called or flexing his two-year-old budding independence by yelling "No!" We are warned in the parable what will happen if we refuse to forgive and the consequences of not heeding this warning are quite weighty.

I just bout fell out th chair on this one... I have always loved how folks could take sumthin that was totally unrealted to sumthin else an make it fit, but even usin this parable the author proves himsef wrong! The author himsef says so right there in bold (I bolded it) if we don't obey we suffer the consequences. I also really like the reference here that for me to disicpline my daughter with anythin other then this form of correction then I am unforgiven of my child. Junk, simply junk!

It is the responsibility of the Holy Spirit to produce fruit in a Believer's life. The fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness and self-control. To expect these from a child is an unrealistic expectation; even mature Believers often struggle in the production of these fruit. How can we expect our children to cheerfully produce fruit that we struggle to produce and that is only growing in us because of the faithful work of the Holy Spirit?

This one is very shockin as well..... see now I don't have to take any responsibility for my actions or my faith or my relationship with Christ because it's the responsibility of th Holy spirit................ this is almost crazy enough to be beyond words! The Holy spirit isn't responsible for my fruit or my actions, it's my responsiblity to allow the Holy spirit to work through me, so that the world see's the fruit of the spirit through me. Does that make sense? I'm havin a bit of a time explain it cause I'm so exasprated by this. If I were to say it's the resonsibility of the Holy spirit then like wise I can say that since I didn't do anythin good today etc then I guess the Holy spirit must have taken a day off er sumthin. I cain't blame the Holy spirit for my failins!!! An I think that's what the world is tryin to do these days, le's jes find someone else to blame an not take resonsibility for our actions. It's junk!!

Grace-Based Discipline is about modeling, being kind and firm, teaching (discipline), correcting (verbally admonishing), respecting and being respected in a way that can only come from relationship. The right relationship you create with your child foreshadows the right relationship your child seeks with his creator.

I completely disagree with this as well, to say that disicpline in any other form isn't a relationship with my child is silly, not only that but to teach that God will not punish us for our screw ups is jes like Katydid says, we're settin our children up for failure. I don't want to stand before my father God an explain to Him why my child thought it was ok to screw up with the excuse that I talked to my child about it. I also disagree that the relationship my child seeks with the Lord is dependant on how my relationship is with my child. I think that's apples an oranges again.

I admit I haven't read the rest of this site an plan on doin so as soon as I get a chance, but from the first page I am very very concerened bout this an like I said the other day, it really bothers me for someone to use the word grace in this, because I think grace is also punishin to correct. To clarify, like Katydid said, we are condemed to death because of our sin, but because of the gift of Christ and His grace we no longer suffer that consequence but that doesn't mean our sin is without consequence either. Scars, disease etc.

because I think grace is also punishin to correct.

I need to make this sound better some how cause it's not comin out right an folks are gonna hit the roof hehe.

To have grace extended to us by anyone does not mean that the slate is wiped clean.... er rather it does but that doesn't relieve us from the consquences... er rather it does..... this isn't comin out right at all.... Perhaps a better way of explainin it is to use the example Katydid used, a judge may show me grace but that doesn't mean I'm completely free from all consquences, the same thing applies to the Lord, He extends grace to me but that doesn't mean I'm held free from the consquences of my actions. God's grace saves me, but if I choose to screw up, I'm held accountable for my actions. Even though He shows me grace I still have to endure whatever the consquence or punishment I'm given and by that God corrects my behavoir.

If this doesn't make sense le'me know I'll see if'n I cain't spit an sputter some more out hehe

 

[Katydid]

Here is a verse to help you out A2J about consequences that the Lord himself will dish out in the last days, mind you, to people who believe they are Christians....


Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Mat 25:33 And he will set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Mat 25:34 Then will the King say to them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mat 25:35 For I was hungry, and ye gave me food: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came to me.

Mat 25:37 Then will the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came to thee?

Mat 25:40 And the king will answer and say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye have done it to one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it to me.

Mat 25:41 Then will he say also to them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mat 25:42 For I was hungry, and ye gave me no food: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Mat 25:44 Then will they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee?

Mat 25:45 Then will he answer them, saying, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Looks to me like this consequence may be a slight bit worse than a spanking.

 

[Andry]

If this doesn't make sense le'me know I'll see if'n I cain't spit an sputter some more out hehe

I'll wait eagerly. I have to run to the office to get some work done, so won't be back till the evening.

One note though, from your first line I think....I wouldn't want anyone to buy into things they don't understand. That would be dumb.

The link isn't the only source of course, and formulating a verdict for your own household isn't an overnight process. I didn't blindly subscribed to GDB based on this single link - I'm not that naive. It was a long evolving process, with much distress, prayer, counsel, and through a variety of resources (and not just the Web!). On this forum, on most given discussions, it's an intro or a crash course really.

We all need to do our own homework to discern for ourselves.

 

[Andry]

Step 5: The Bear Hug.



You do realize that this method is used for children with SERIOUS rage disorders? Simply for two reasons, it prevents them from hurting themselves, and takes all control away so that they learn to let go and stop raging. Do you also realize that those same psychologists who taught me to do this to my stepson for a RAGE disorder, highly suggested NOT doing it to a child who ISN'T raging because it starts the fight/flight mechanism and can CAUSE rage? The reason you do it with enraged children is so they learn to CONTROL their fight/flight. A healthy, normal child not raging will feel attacked by this. OK that is only what 3 psychologists taught us when dealing with my stepson who had a serious RAGE disorder. I would NEVER use this method with a normal child. It can be VERY traumatic, and if you have ever used it with a child who had emotional problems, you may seriously reconsider this method.​

Katydid,

My wife is a psychologist. Are you? (And I'm not at all trying to sound rude).

This particular author in GDB doesn't believe in spanking. I do. You don't take everything verbatim and to the letter. Use the principles as applicable, the methods as applicable.

Lastly, I don't expect you or anyone to fully understand by looking at one link and thinking that's all there is to it. Of course not. The other link I posted was Tim Kimmel's book. That's a good start. Buy the book (and I don't get a commission! )

Your getting your cart before the horse....trying to apply the methods before understanding the principles.

Read my post too to A2J, as I have to get to the office and so will respond more appropriately later on.

Blessings and have a wonderful day.