Space is actually expanding equally and at the same rate or speed everywhere...

[Kylie]

God “created the heavens, and stretched
them out” (Isaiah 42:5). “He stretcheth out
the north over the empty place, and hangeth
the earth upon nothing” (Job 26:7).

Hebrew natah, which means to stretch or spread;
it can mean to extend in every direction.

Scripture refers to the heavens in this way 11 times, by Job, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah and Zechariah.

(Isaiah 45:12; 48:13; Jeremiah 10:12; 51:15)
use a form of natah that literally means the
action was completed some time ago.

Seven instances use a form of the verb natah
that implies continual or ongoing stretching
(Job 9:8; Psalm 104:2; Isaiah 40:22; 42:5; 44:24; 51:13; Zechariah 12:1).

Both of these aspects of this stretching
can be seen in Isaiah 40:22, that God
“stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain,
and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in.”

Stretches out comes from natah and implies
something continuing today, while spreadeth
comes from the Hebrew mathach meaning to
stretch out and implying something that God
has already done and completed.

I don't get how you can say it implies that it is continuing today when both curtains and tents only spread out so far and then they stop.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

If there were a specific origin point or center from which everything originated or is expanding from, shouldn't we see some evidence of that, in the dispersal pattern...?

Yes, we would expect to see a pattern more like that of an explosion - but we don't. There appears to be no centre of expansion.

Unless what were seeing is not a very big "piece of the pie", I guess you could say, like less than 1%, which would make the universe incredibly large, and the origin point very far away, like trillions of light years or more, so then, how could it be only 13.8 billion years old...? Seems like it would have to be very, very much more older than that, right...?

Observations tell us that there appears to be no point of origin, i.e. the big bang didn't happen at a point in space. The whole early universe was very hot and dense and expanded rapidly. Whether it was spatially finite or infinite is not known. We do know that the whole universe is many times larger than the observable universe (at least 250 times the radius, which would make it at least 15 million times larger in volume).

 

[Neogaia777]

Yes, we would expect to see a pattern more like that of an explosion - but we don't. There appears to be no centre of expansion.

Observations tell us that there appears to be no point of origin, i.e. the big bang didn't happen at a point in space. The whole early universe was very hot and dense and expanded rapidly. Whether it was spatially finite or infinite is not known. We do know that the whole universe is many times larger than the observable universe (at least 250 times the radius, which would make it at least 15 million times larger in volume).

Wanted to put "like and informative" but can't do both...

But about there appearing to be no centre of the expansion is not really true, but what we do see is "us as the centre" of it, but I think that's what we'd see from wherever we were at in it, and that it's actually happening, and/or expanding/accelerating (accelerating more the further away from us) or whatever, uniformly everywhere, from nowhere as the center of it... And at the same rate and/or speed, etc...

At least that's what pure observation would show us anyway...

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Wanted to put "like and informative" but can't do both...

But about there appearing to be no centre of the expansion is not really true, but what we do see is "us as the centre" of it, but I think that's what we'd see from wherever we were at in it, and that it's actually happening, and/or expanding/accelerating (accelerating more the further away from us) or whatever, uniformly everywhere, from nowhere as the center of it... And at the same rate and/or speed, etc...

Yes, what I meant by 'it appears that' was 'we think that'.

 

[Neogaia777]

Yes, what I meant by 'it appears that' was 'we think that'.

But don't we all know that "appearances can be deceiving" right, which is kind of why I've been saying what I have been saying, or have been saying what I have been trying to be saying anyway...

 

[Neogaia777]

Yes, what I meant by 'it appears that' was 'we think that'.

Do you think it would appear that way from wherever we were at in it...?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

But don't we all know that "appearances can be deceiving" right, which is kind of why I've been saying what I have been saying, or have been saying what i have been trying to be saying anyway...

If we happened to be at the centre of the universe's expansion, not only would that be pretty unlikely, but there would be an asymmetry when you took a different point of view - from any other point in the universe, it would look as if the Earth was the centre of expansion, and the scalar increase in velocity with distance that we observe would not be seen. The expanding universe is also a prediction of General Relativity, which predicts either an expanding or contracting universe.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Do you think it would appear that way from wherever we were at in it...?

Yes. Wherever you are in the universe, everything appears to be moving away from you at a velocity proportional to its distance (at large scales).

 

[Neogaia777]

Yes. Wherever you are in the universe, everything appears to be moving away from you at a velocity proportional to its distance (at large scales).

Why is that and what is the explanation for that do you think...?

 

[Ophiolite]

Why is that and what is the explanation for that do you think...?

Universal uniform expansion of space. It's not rocket science. (No, literally, it's not rocket science.)

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Why is that and what is the explanation for that do you think...?

As Ophiolite says, it's a simple consequence of space expanding everywhere, making the distance between every galaxy increase. Use your imagination to put yourself in an expanding space that's studded with galaxies and imagine what it would look like from any particular galaxy in that space.

 

[Neogaia777]

As Ophiolite says, it's a simple consequence of space expanding everywhere, making the distance between every galaxy increase. Use your imagination to put yourself in an expanding space that's studded with galaxies and imagine what it would look like from any particular galaxy in that space.

How fast is it expanding everywhere, and is their a counter-force to perhaps keep it perpetual maybe...? An expanding force, and a counter-force that brings it back in...?

And again, how fast of course...?

 

[Neogaia777]

Universal uniform expansion of space. It's not rocket science. (No, literally, it's not rocket science.)

I know it's not, cause I'm not, most definitely not...

I just took a picture of the known universe, and then considered the fact that from wherever you are at in it, it looks the same, the expansion looks the same, then considered what was "in-between", and then, just by using a sheet of paper and drawing, considered that if it did have a centre or origin point, that we should be able to see that in the dispersal pattern, unless were not seeing very much of it, which would put that centre or origin point, very far away, trillions of light years away, which led me to question how the universe could only be 13.8 billion years old only...? And led me to question the big bang, etc...? How can be happening equally and uniformly everywhere, at what rate of speed, etc...? is their a counter-force...? How old is it if their was a big bang that we can't see yet if and because were not seeing very much of it, etc...?

We can see 46.5 billion light years around us in every direction, and the reason we cannot see beyond that, is because stuff appears to be moving away from us as the centre of that, at beyond the speed of light past that point...? But how fast is stuff moving and expanding and pushing off and away from each other really...?

 

[Neogaia777]

Are we part of the expansion...? Are we moving or not moving...? Then from wherever you are, are you moving or not moving...?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

How fast is it expanding everywhere, and is their a counter-force to perhaps keep it perpetual maybe...? An expanding force, and a counter-force that brings it back in...?

And again, how fast of course...?

You already asked that and I already answered it.

Gravity is the only countering force, but, as I already said, is not sufficient above galactic scales. But we don't yet know if the expanding force ('dark energy') is constant over time. It may be inherent to spacetime, having constant energy density as space expands, but not enough is known about it to say for sure.

 

[Neogaia777]

You already asked that and I already answered it.

Gravity is the only countering force, but, as I already said, is not sufficient above galactic scales. But we don't yet know if the expanding force ('dark energy') is constant over time. It may be inherent to spacetime, having constant energy density as space expands, but not enough is known about it to say for sure.

Isn't gravity part of the force that makes it, or a picture of the known universe with it's strings and clusters of galaxies, etc, and such, anyway, isn't it gravity that is in part making it do that, or not...?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Are we part of the expansion...? Are we moving or not moving...? Then from wherever you are, are you moving or not moving...?

As I already said, the expansion is everywhere, at supra-galactic scales. We're in the universe, so we're part of it to that extent. We're not moving through space as far as the expansion goes, it's the distances between our galaxy and the others that are increasing. We do have a 'proper' motion in our orbit around the sun, the sun's orbit through the galaxy, and the galaxy's movement within the local cluster, but these are all gravitational effects.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Isn't gravity part of the force that makes it, or a picture of the known universe with it's strings and clusters of galaxies, etc, and such, anyway, isn't it gravity that is in part making it do that, or not...?

Not sure what you're asking... put simply, gravity is attractive (to matter), dark energy is repulsive (makes space expand).

 

[Neogaia777]

As I already said, the expansion is everywhere, at supra-galactic scales. We're in the universe, so we're part of it to that extent. We're not moving through space as far as the expansion goes, it's the distances between our galaxy and the others that are increasing. We do have a 'proper' motion in our orbit around the sun, the sun's orbit through the galaxy, and the galaxy's movement within the local cluster, but these are all gravitational effects.

Thanks, thank you, but I was wondering if you maybe have and answer for post #36 though, maybe, possibly, maybe...?

Thanks again,

Peace

 

[Neogaia777]

Not sure what you're asking... put simply, gravity is attractive (to matter), dark energy is repulsive (makes space expand).

In a picture of the known universe, it is laid out with strings and strands and clusters connecting those strands and strings of, galaxies, etc, or "normal matter" (for the most part anyway), etc, and then empty areas, where dark matter may be a force pushing out maybe causing the expansion on supra-galactic scales, and I'm wondering if gravity is still a force even on those supra-galactic scales, that is trying to draw things back toward each other or back together, but maybe against the force or forces that are causing the expansion, etc, on supra-galactic scales, etc...?

Could gravity still be a "force(al) factor" I guess you could say, even on those supra-galactic scales, etc, that is maybe against the force or forces pushing everything apart (or trying to push everything apart), or out and away from one another, etc...? Even on those supra-galactic scales, etc...?

Could gravity still be a factor, and could it be partially responsible for what we see in a picture of the known universe and how it is laid out with all of it's (connecting) strings and clusters, etc...? And why there even are strings and clusters maybe, etc...?

Peace.