Southern Baptist truth founded on sand or biblical truth?

[FreeinChrist]

No, I am not implying that at all, are they wrong? If not, why do these pictures upset you? You should be proud. Instead you attack my motive and character.

What was your point in posting the pictures in the first place?
You compare a picture of communion with a picture of a band - why didn't you post a picture of communion at Saddleback? THAT would have been a fairer "comparison" if that was what you truly wanted.





And then you compare the beginning of a sermon of Rick Warren's - which is after music and prayer and prayer and music....and then try to compare it with the opening of a service in the Orthodox church. Don't Orthodox priests give sermons? Wouldn't it be more realsonable to compare a sermon with a sermon?
Why don't you print Rick's sermon and let us see where he was going with the opening statement.

I don't believe there was a good reason to post the pictures as you did. And No, I don't think much of the intent I suspect is behind doing it.

Have I identified Orthodox tradition really any differently than what I showed of the largest church in the SBC? What, besides the last photo indicates Orthodox tradition. (Yes this is a loaded question)

Is Saddleback the biggest in the SBC? There are some mighty big ones in Texas, South Carolina, North Carolina, etc.
Instead, I believe Warren has sold alot of books - and guess what - my devout Catholic mother-in-law read The Purpose Driven Life and there was a weekly discussion group at her Catholic church that studied the book. If you go to Saddleback's site, and look at where the conferences are held - they are held in churches of many denominations.
However you still have not supported the idea that guitar services are "Baptist tradition."

You may believe what you want about me and my intent.

And I have clearly stated what I believe those intentions were.

 

[Iollain]

Yeah really though, what is the deal with comparing a back view of a guy playing guitar with a child taking Communion? Your suggesting that Baptist's take Communion off the end of an electric guitar?

 

[vanshan]

I think Theophorus made some valid juxtapostions of what can take place in a Baptist Church, or various Protestant Churches in general, as they are completely removed from the heritage of the Ancient Christian Church. No doubt almost all Baptist churches have more solemn moments than what was pictured, but the point is the photos show what can happen in those churches in the name of Christ. They do not struggle to uphold the faith as it has been passed down from the beginning, choosing to instead reinvent the faith according to their reasonings.

More and more Baptist churches are taking ambiguous names that do not have the negative word "baptist" in them. Not really negative, in my opinion, but they have had focus groups determine it's better to not call themselves baptist--even the former Baptist Bookstore goes by Lifeway Books to avoid the pejorated word "baptist." They rarely have communion, but have a coffee bar in their foyers. They don't have overnight vigils, replacing them instead with rock concerts which appeal to the lowest human emotions and impulses. What we need is a return to the ancient faith as it was actually established by Christ, not trendy consumer-based religion. All "traditions" that have formed out of focus groups and a consumer mentality are founded on the short-sighted sand of modern society, far removed from the Holy Traditions of Christ.

Iollian, you don't have to bow to Mary if that is offensive. It would be better for you to be in communion with Christ in the Ancient Church and refuse to honor Mary, than to live out your life in modern man-made traditions. Of course, you may claim we follow man-made traditions as well, but look at the shared heritage we have in Christ. Who is more likely to have steered off course? The Orthodox have not tried to reinvent the Church, but simply defend her traditions without change.

Basil

 

[ScottBot]

Ok next time someone is healed by people that pray and lay their hands on them lets give the credit of the healing to the creation instead of the Creator. Thanks for prayer is just that, 'thanks for praying'. Anytime you talk to Mary and thank her for your salvation and call her all those things that should be reserved for God your giving the credit to the wrong thing. If i pray for someones salvation and they are eventually saved it is not my place to want praised calling me their salvation, advocate, etc. The very audacity of the thought of someone thanking me for their salvation. I mean just imagine this, (forgive me Lord i'm just trying to make a point)

O Iollain, raise us fallen into a bottomless pit of despair, wrongdoing and affliction; for thou art the salvation and succour and powerful advocate of those that have sinned, and thou dost save thy servants.

I tell ya that is blasphemy.

YOu wouldn't thank the person who lead you to Christ? I tell ya, that is downright ungrateful.

 

[Iollain]

Yup sure Scott, that little saying there is just a little thank you note.

 

[Iollain]

I think Theophorus made some valid juxtapostions of what can take place in a Baptist Church, or various Protestant Churches in general, as they are completely removed from the heritage of the Ancient Christian Church. No doubt almost all Baptist churches have more solemn moments than what was pictured, but the point is the photos show what can happen in those churches in the name of Christ. They do not struggle to uphold the faith as it has been passed down from the beginning, choosing to instead reinvent the faith according to their reasonings.

More and more Baptist churches are taking ambiguous names that do not have the negative word "baptist" in them. Not really negative, in my opinion, but they have had focus groups determine it's better to not call themselves baptist--even the former Baptist Bookstore goes by Lifeway Books to avoid the pejorated word "baptist." They rarely have communion, but have a coffee bar in their foyers. They don't have overnight vigils, replacing them instead with rock concerts which appeal to the lowest human emotions and impulses. What we need is a return to the ancient faith as it was actually established by Christ, not trendy consumer-based religion. All "traditions" that have formed out of focus groups and a consumer mentality are founded on the short-sighted sand of modern society, far removed from the Holy Traditions of Christ.

Iollian, you don't have to bow to Mary if that is offensive. It would be better for you to be in communion with Christ in the Ancient Church and refuse to honor Mary, than to live out your life in modern man-made traditions. Of course, you may claim we follow man-made traditions as well, but look at the shared heritage we have in Christ. Who is more likely to have steered off course? The Orthodox have not tried to reinvent the Church, but simply defend her traditions without change.

Basil

Basil, i don't know what your background is, i know some people think electric guitars are prime evil. But i'm not one of them cause i just happen to like rock music more than any kind of music and find the praise and worship to be just my style. They don't bring out the worst in people, it's the same music put to a different sound, anyway no big deal.

I would not be better off in your church cause you'd be throwing me out cause i could not stand to stand there with people who are imo doing things that i can't say on CF. I would be booted out of your church on my ear cause i would not be able to keep silent about it.

Comparing rock style praise and worship music to bowing to icons is not a comparison to me cause i'll die first before i'll bow.

How can you say this brings out the worst in people?


Lord of all creation
Of water, earth and sky
The heavens are Your tabernacle
Glory to the Lord on high

God of wonders
Beyond our galaxy
You are holy, holy
The universe declares Your majesty
You are holy, holy
Lord of Heaven and Earth
Lord of Heaven and Earth

Early in the morning
I will celebrate the light
And as I stumble in the darkness
I will call Your name by night

Hallelujah, to the Lord of Heaven and Earth
Hallelujah, to the Lord of Heaven and Earth
Hallelujah, to the Lord of Heaven and Earth

God of wonders
Beyond our galaxy
You are holy, holy
Precious Lord, reveal Your heart to me
Father, holy, holy
The universe declares Your majesty
You are holy, yes You are
Lord You are
Jesus is holy

Hallelujah, to the Lord of Heaven and Earth...

-for example.

 

[vanshan]

How can you say this brings out the worst in people?


Lord of all creation
Of water, earth and sky
The heavens are Your tabernacle
Glory to the Lord on high

God of wonders
Beyond our galaxy
You are holy, holy
The universe declares Your majesty
You are holy, holy
Lord of Heaven and Earth
Lord of Heaven and Earth

Early in the morning
I will celebrate the light
And as I stumble in the darkness
I will call Your name by night

Hallelujah, to the Lord of Heaven and Earth
Hallelujah, to the Lord of Heaven and Earth
Hallelujah, to the Lord of Heaven and Earth

God of wonders
Beyond our galaxy
You are holy, holy
Precious Lord, reveal Your heart to me
Father, holy, holy
The universe declares Your majesty
You are holy, yes You are
Lord You are
Jesus is holy

Hallelujah, to the Lord of Heaven and Earth...

-for example.

Overall, I have no problem with the lyrics you quoted, but I think contemporary, and even especially rock-n-roll, worship is emotionally manipulative and feeds on our passions.

The purpose of the Christian worship service was always to unite us to Christ in a very real tangible way through the Holy Mysteries (communion). It's was never designed to feed our excitement or entertain us. Now, that said, there is a natural emotional response that's part of the reality of knowing we are mystically united with Christ and are being saved, but to woship with bands and whatever trendy form we enjoy cheapens Christian worship and really is off-focus from what worship has always centered around.

Basil

 

[Iollain]

I'm thinkin that is just not true cause if it's the music played at your church or the old hymns played at mine, it's still music. We do not have 'rock' style praise and worship music at my church we have a piano, that does not matter to me cause 90% of the people at that church would not tolerate rock style and i don't go to church because of the style of music they play, i go to worship God with other believers, we have communion once a month. Just because you don't like rock style music does not mean it cheapens Christian worship for all of us, some of us think it is better. I know what you mean by some of the stuff is just not good, we have a Christian radio station here and the music they play 80% of the time is really bad, but that does not mean that someone else does not enjoy that particular style. I'm not that stuck on myself to think that my style of music is the best and everyone else's is un-Christian.

While we are on the subject of music, it just so happens that one of my favourite songs is this one:

I will worship
with all of my heart
I will praise you
with all of my strength
I will seek you
all of my days
I will follow
all of your ways
I will give you all my worship
I will give you all my praise
You alone I long to worship
You alone are worthy of my praise
I will bow down
Hail you as king
I will serve you
Give you everything
I will lift up
my eyes to your throne
And I will trust you
I will trust you alone


I could not sing this song to my God and say those things that we were talking about awhile ago to Mary or any other Saint. Especially the I will trust You, 'I will trust You alone'.

That just would not do cause i really like that song.

 

[ImSoBlessed]

Precisely, you got it! God be praised. Catholics and Orthodox don't ask Mary or saints to save us, we ask them to pray for our salvation, just like you would ask your own mother or friends to pray for you. No more, no less.

why would you ask someone that is dead to pray for you?

we pray because we are not with the father but when we join the father do you think that we would be praying?

theres is no where in the bible that supports having dead people pray for you...not in my bible anyway....

 

[Iollain]

LaVang, 1798, apparation of Mary announced:

"Have trust, be willing to suffer hardship and sorrow. I have already granted your prayers. Henceforth all those who come to pray to me in this spot will see their wishes fulfilled".

This is not the Mary of the Bible who's soul magnified the Lord. No doubt they have a statue of Mary in this shrine, whatever this is always asks for statues to be set up. So here people are trusting in Mary and bowing and 'venerating' a statue and praying to Mary. And you think Southern Baptist's are built on sand?

 

[Iollain]

why would you ask someone that is dead to pray for you?

we pray because we are not with the father but when we join the father do you think that we would be praying?

theres is no where in the bible that supports having dead people pray for you...not in my bible anyway....

Now they are going to change the subject and remind you that they are not dead, just passed on, that ImSoBlessed already knows so don't bother.

 

[Iollain]

During his 26 year pontificate, John Paul II has frequently reminded us that the month of May is, in a particular way, dedicated to Mary, the Mother of God.

In their reflection on the significance of Jesus' Passion, the Church fathers understood that when Jesus, dying in agony on the Cross, said to St John, "This is your mother", he was not merely entrusting Mary to John's care, but also making Mary the spiritual mother of all followers of Christ.

In Mary's life on earth, we see a strong woman, the author of the Magnificat, who was willing to embrace motherhood as a vocation from God, in all its joys and sorrows. Every mother will know exactly the meaning of the prophet Simeon's words to Mary, when Jesus was presented in the Temple in Jerusalem: "A sword will pierce your own heart".

She was with Jesus at every moment of his life: from his conception through his "hidden life" in Bethlehem, during his public ministry, at his crucifixion, and with the disciples on Pentecost Sunday, when the Holy Spirit came down upon them. She was both Jesus' model, and an example of perfect discipleship.

In following in the footsteps of Jesus, and in the richness of the Christian tradition, we find in Mary the perfect mediator between mankind and God, in whom we can confide our most private thoughts and deepest fears, asking her intercession in the confident knowledge that Jesus will hear her, as happened at the Wedding Feast at Cana.

In our own society, it is unfashionable to pray, and in a society which has devalued motherhood, it is profoundly counter-cultural to pray to Mary in particular. These are two good reasons this month why we should turn, in complete trust, to Mary our mother.

--------------------





This is from an RCC website, this is the relationship that Jesus died for so we can call on our Father in whom we can confide our most private thoughts and deepest fears. We have the Holy Spirit that cries to Abba, not to someone else.

 

[elizabethevangeline]

Swanky churches with robes and gold and Third Day are not the traditions that are to be avoided, it's the ones that replace saying the Psalms with prayers to Mary and people that make traditions out of apparations that are to be avoided.

I've attended Conservative Baptist or Evangelical Free Churches for 37 yrs. I now attend an Orthodox church. It by far uses more scripture than any other church I've been in. The Psalms are used constantly.

Here are some of the songs/prayers of the Liturgy sung every week. If repeating scripture is boring...that's our personal problem not a fault of the Church or Liturgy.

"Bless the Lord, O my soul, Blessed are You, O Lord!
Bless the Lord, O my soul, And all that is within me, bless His holy name!
Bless the Lord, O my soul, And forget not all His benefits!
Whoe forgives all your iniquity, who heals all your diseases!
The Lord is compassionate and merciful, long suffering and of great goodness!
Bless the Lord, O my soul, Blessed are You, O Lord!"

"Praise the Lord, O my soul! I will praise the Lord as long as I live; I will sing praises to my God while I have being.
Put not your trust in princes, in sons of men in whom there is no salvation.
When his breath departs he returns to his earth; on the very day his plans perish.
The Lord will reign forever; Your God, O Zion, to all generations.
Now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen.
Only begotten Son and immortal Word of God.
Who for our salvation willed to be incarnate of the holy Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary
Who without change became man and was crucified
Who is one of the Holy Trinity, glorified with the Father and the Holy Spirit:
O Christ our God, Trampling down death by death, save us!"


"Come, let us worship and bow down before Christ, who rose from the dead, O Son of God, save us who sing to you: Alleluia!"


"Holy, Holy, Holy! Lord of Sabaoth! Heaven and earth are full of Your glory! Hosanna in the highest! Blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord! Hosanna in the highest!"

"Let our mouths be filled with Your praise, O Lord, that we may sing of Your glory; for You have made us worthy to partake of Your holy, divine, immortal, and life-creating Mysteries. Keep us in Your holiness, that all the day we many meditate upon Your righteousness. Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia!"

 

[Iollain]

You are twisting my post, i never said saying Psalms was boring, i said, 'it's the ones that replace saying the Psalms with prayers to Mary and people that make traditions out of apparations that are to be avoided.'

That is supposidly how the rosary was started, replacing repeating of Psalms with prayers to Mary.

I don't really care what kind of music is at church i go to gather with other believers, love the Psalms and read them all the time, thanks.

 

[elizabethevangeline]

You are twisting my post, i never said saying Psalms was boring, i said, 'it's the ones that replace saying the Psalms with prayers to Mary and people that make traditions out of apparations that are to be avoided.'

That is supposidly how the rosary was started, replacing repeating of Psalms with prayers to Mary.

I don't really care what kind of music is at church i go to gather with other believers, love the Psalms and read them all the time, thanks.

I didn't twist your post. I was addressing the assumption that the Psalms were replaced by anything in Orthodox worship. Orthodox worship is full of Psalms and scripture.

I did add the comments about repetition because you also said in a later post:

What do you think God likes better, David dancing before the Lord or someone falling asleep cause they are chanting the same exact service for the 10,000th time?

Repetition doesn't equal boring.

 

[ImSoBlessed]

God said sing unto me a new song...why is that?

 

[vanshan]

Iollain, do not satisfy yourself with these contemporary passing fadish traditions, when the Holy Traditions of Christ have been preserved to this day. I don't think arguing about venerating Mary and how we should worship in our services gets at the root of the problem. Christ poured Himself out for us, becoming a living sacrifice. He instituted the Holy Mysteries, which are the center of Christian worship, telling us to commune when we gather in rememberance of Him. This is the core of worship. There is no reason to make worship services centered around our desires--we have been given what we need--communion with Christ.

Here is a source which has the text of our Divine Liturgy. You will see it completely grounded in the worship of Christ and the Holy Trinity.

www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/prayerbook/main.htm

 

[Iollain]

Vanshan, i was not the one who started making a big deal out of the 'worship service', look back in the posts. I've already said many times i don't go to church to sing the songs i myself like. 'Venerating' Mary and the other Saints and icons IS why you will not see me at your church, other than that i would not have the slightest reason not to come praise and worship God with you. Just because you have a swanky church with gold communion cups does not make God's Presence any more at your church than mine. I've already said, we DO have the Lord's Table once a month.



Yes we have been given communion with Christ, through the Holy Spirit

 

[FreeinChrist]

Vanshan, i was not the one who started making a big deal out of the 'worship service', look back in the posts. I've already said many times i don't go to church to sing the songs i myself like. 'Venerating' Mary and the other Saints and icons IS why you will not see me at your church, other than that i would not have the slightest reason not to come praise and worship God with you. Just because you have a swanky church with gold communion cups does not make God's Presence any more at your church than mine. I've already said, we DO have the Lord's Table once a month.



Yes we have been given communion with Christ, through the Holy Spirit

Same here.

I don't see anywhere in the Bible that limits the instruments or the beat of the music when you are making a joyful noise unto the Lord. Or that the service MUST be conducted in a certain pattern. Instead, I believe the heart and intent is the important part.

 

[ScottBot]

Now they are going to change the subject and remind you that they are not dead, just passed on, that ImSoBlessed already knows so don't bother.

If ImSoBlessed already knows that people who are physically dead are alive in Christ, then why did he/she make the point that the bible doesn't say that dead people pray? And in case you don't think so, then you aren't familiar with the book of Revelations 8:3, "And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne,". Since this is a vision of heaven, it must include the prayers of those who are already in heaven, hence saints in heaven can and do pray, and their prayers are efficacious. Do we have to keep going over this point? Where in the bible does it tell non-christians to "accept Jesus as their personal Lord and savior" and they will be saved?