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Now, if there is a scripture plainly saying Eve's spirit is only a copy of Adam's, though, I'd be genuinely delighted to see it,
If as some keep claiming, God inserts a brand new spirit/soul from his heavenly store into each new foetus, then the only aspect we can possibly inherit from Adam will be the physical human body.
This human body is of course merely the tent which contains our soul/spirit, and when we die that human body is left behind and rots in the ground. This being true whether we are righteous or wicked.
In contrast to the body, our spirit/soul does not die, but will appear before the heavenly judgement seat of God, and be either accepted or rejected.
ie. It is our spirit/soul personality that is judged responsible for sin and iniquity, not our physical body.
And therein lies a serious scriptural problem.
Psalm51v5Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
If as some claim, God puts a brand new spirit/soul in a baby, how can it possibly contain sin and iniquity?
This is just a load of hot air trying to cloud the plain text of what David said.ah!.... Before I answer, please any others reading notice there is more than only one or 2 pieces to this answer. First, in Psalm 51 David is repenting. For adultery and murder -- not just some medium sized sins, but some very serious 10 commandment level big sins.
It's really serious stuff, and this Psalm is a truly humble and abject repenting. So is it hyperbole? Well, it is normal in scripture for hyperbole to show up here and there, but...
But we can't know whether it's hyperbole by just supposing. We need to truly listen to the whole psalm altogether, with the humble listening attitude that does not presume we already know all that will be given to us as we listen. So, this by itself -- simply to listen fully to Psalm 51 is already a major thing to do, so if we do it now, it will be by itself a major project, even perhaps day's worth of scripture.
The key is we aren't listening in order to use. We don't aim to use this psalm for some other goal. Instead in listening the goal is to be impacted/changed/improved. We are the ones learning, if we listen.
We cannot control it. So, at this point the agenda (and even the discussion) goes out the window, and a new goal happens -- to be subservient to God, and hear.
Later, we might return to the question being discussed.
Psalm 51:1 Have mercy on me, O God, according to Your loving devotion; according to Your great compassion, blot out my transgressions.
Perhaps the ESV is better:
Psalm 51 ESV
(wow, I'd not read the ESV I think. just wow!....)
Psalm 51 is just one among many scriptures that stand against you.I hope one day you'll truly listen to psalm 51.
Wickedness and rebellion against God is a freewill choice, even from the womb, but that doesn't help prove your point.When David refers to the wicked (as you pointed to in Psalm 58), he does not mean everyone -- though for everyone: all sin and fall short -- but instead of just everyone, by "wicked" David instead refers to those that insist on remaining wicked.
As I told you already, my wife and I are reading Psalms every day.Or just read Psalm 58.
(or read though the Psalms. I'm currently on the wonderful 139, having been reading through them over the last 3 months).
That's such a fundamentally wrong thing to think.Psalm 51 is just one among many scriptures that stand against you.
Exactly.That's such a fundamentally wrong thing to think.
Instead, Pslam 51 is an aid to anyone that is humble enough to admit they are a sinner that relies on Christ for salvation.
That is why I presented loads of other scriptures which you studiously ignored.Also, it's a huge error to try to use a verse to support a doctrine, instead of humbly listening to the full scripture, the full passage, the full book, as the real goal.
That's completely disingenuous. I have never used just one verse but loads. In contrast you have focused almost exclusively on presenting that the same verse.When a person aims to just use individual verses to support their idea, they end up with an ideology. And an ideology isn't the scripture, and is therefore not what aids or helps us.
Then I suggest you take note of it.It's about being humble ultimately.
“God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”
If I recall, it was you who presented Pelagianism as some sort of spiritual wisdom.Instead of thinking of the Bible as your raw lumber to construct what you want from it, you need to change and really listen, without imposing your own goal and your own objective you bring to the reading.
inherited sinful state from Adam
Exactly.
But admission of sin includes not just sinful activity, but the inherited sinful state from Adam which disproves everything you keep presenting.
That is why I presented loads of other scriptures which you studiously ignored.
That's completely disingenuous. I have never used just one verse but loads. In contrast you have focused almost exclusively on presenting that the same verse.
Then I suggest you take note of it.
If I recall, it was you who presented Pelagianism as some sort of spiritual wisdom.
I used "inherited" because scripture constantly states we bear the sin of Adam. It is not a metaphor.If I was to try to describe our fallen condition, as human kind, I'd use the word 'inherited' possibly as a metaphor, but it would not be to me clear it's more than a metaphor.
No I don't. We are body soul and spirit, three different things. Scripture shows that soul and spirit continue after death whilst the body rots.Do you see the individual's spirit and soul as the same thing, or 2 things related, or what?
You repeatedly stated the view that a brand new spirit is added to every child before birth.What is it you think I presented precisely?
I was referring to the many NT verses that speak of Adam's fallen sin nature being passed down to all mankind.About "studiously ignored" -- far from it, when you tried to explain the crucial verse Jer 1:5 as I repeatedly asked about, you presented a speculative theory I've only heard in recent years, which, as before I think contradicts scripture.
I don't think I have deviated at all from my main consistent point that we all carry the DNA nature of Adam, not just bodily, but soul and spirit.So...not really ignoring. You left the main objection there, or moved on away from it, from my point of view.
You lost me there, above my pay grade.If a person simply uses as a premise the idea that God has chosen to be 'present in all time, past/present/future' or a similar notion, then as I already said, your reasoning from that and other pieces together is "logically consistent" as I said above.
I am not going to waste time and effort as to how God dwells outside of time, as its a good honest mainstream theology.heh heh. If I only accepted that particular speculative idea about God and time, then we could just wrap up this topic in large part agreement it might be. Instead, as I hoped I was clear enough on before, it seems all a speculative theory, because of the speculative premise about God and time being integral.
Please do.There are a variety of ways God can accomplish what He has chosen to accomplish we can imagine, so therefore that particular theory is only one of several possibilities that would fit.
But it's one I think contradicts scripture, and if you wish to consider that I'll be happy to lay out why.
I never thought about it in that detail, but given that our physical body has to grow from a simple cell, maybe that's also correct for the human soul and human spirit.Hopefully you won't have to guess too much about what I think. Please just ask though when trying to infer.
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Trying to understand your view, are you in effect saying you think the individual spirit grows like a plant from a seed, physically inherited? I'm not too sure that's what you meant, but just trying to find out more clearly.
I used "inherited" because scripture constantly states we bear the sin of Adam. It is not a metaphor.
No I don't. We are body soul and spirit, three different things. Scripture shows that soul and spirit continue after death whilst the body rots.
The OP refers to souls, but your earlier posts referred to spirits. I didn't want to enter a discussion as to the difference, so I referred to them as soul/spirit. In my view, although different, they are completely tied together.
I didn't want to derail the thread with a new discussion, although I would welcome it elsewhere.
You repeatedly stated the view that a brand new spirit is added to every child before birth.
I was referring to the many NT verses that speak of Adam's fallen sin nature being passed down to all mankind.
I don't think I have deviated at all from my main consistent point that we all carry the DNA nature of Adam, not just bodily, but soul and spirit.
If God inserts a new spirit/soul at conception, that would completely break that inheritance, and deny scripture. It would also open the possibility of someone living a perfect life and not needing redemption.
You lost me there, above my pay grade.
I am not going to waste time and effort as to how God dwells outside of time, as its a good honest mainstream theology.
But if God is limited by the constraints of time, then he cannot see the future as a present reality and is no better than his own creations.
Please do.
I never thought about it in that detail, but given that our physical body has to grow from a simple cell, maybe that's also correct for the human soul and human spirit.
Going back to Jeremiah1, John the Baptist etc. I believe that the human spirit has to be sufficiently mature whilst still in the womb to respond to the spirit of God.
But of course, responding to the spirit of God has nothing to do with theology.
I occasionally include parts of the Lord's prayer, but being called to intercession, I always seek wisdom from the Holy Spirit as I pray.How are you doing today? Did you pray the prayer we are given in Matthew 6 yet today? I ask because it's one of the most helpful things, and makes such a dramatic difference for me, over and over.
I have enjoyed our chats. I apologies if my replies seem a little abrupt, I can be a little heavy handed.I'm hoping to discuss more soon, but want to be sure to be on the right foot.
No hurry, I tend to slow down when the topics are deep, because there's no reason to rush.
I used "inherited" because scripture constantly states we bear the sin of Adam. It is not a metaphor.
No I don't. We are body soul and spirit, three different things. Scripture shows that soul and spirit continue after death whilst the body rots.
The OP refers to souls, but your earlier posts referred to spirits. I didn't want to enter a discussion as to the difference, so I referred to them as soul/spirit. In my view, although different, they are completely tied together.
I didn't want to derail the thread with a new discussion, although I would welcome it elsewhere.
You repeatedly stated the view that a brand new spirit is added to every child before birth.
I was referring to the many NT verses that speak of Adam's fallen sin nature being passed down to all mankind.
I don't think I have deviated at all from my main consistent point that we all carry the DNA nature of Adam, not just bodily, but soul and spirit.
If God inserts a new spirit/soul at conception, that would completely break that inheritance, and deny scripture. It would also open the possibility of someone living a perfect life and not needing redemption.
You lost me there, above my pay grade.
I am not going to waste time and effort as to how God dwells outside of time, as its a good honest mainstream theology.
But if God is limited by the constraints of time, then he cannot see the future as a present reality and is no better than his own creations.
Please do.
I never thought about it in that detail, but given that our physical body has to grow from a simple cell, maybe that's also correct for the human soul and human spirit.
Going back to Jeremiah1, John the Baptist etc. I believe that the human spirit has to be sufficiently mature whilst still in the womb to respond to the spirit of God.
But of course, responding to the spirit of God has nothing to do with theology.
This is obviously one of the key verses on the subject, showing clearly that soul and spirit are different.Trying to focus in on one key piece, I think it was quite a few years ago I was wondering just what was the difference between the individual's soul and spirit (because we know the verse Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It judges the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
Not sure I agree with this, as scripture shows that even God has a soul!-- so we know the soul and spirit aren't the same indentical thing, though of course we sense they are intimately connected), and so I read on it, and that was quite a long time ago, so I can't recall the source, but what I came away with was the summary in my mind that the soul is the outcome of the spirit indwelling in the physical body -- a kind of over-time result of the individual spirt and the body combined or co-existing together.
I am sure we are both well read in the scriptures.This all fits scripture so far as I know (I've read fully through the Bible, and many times fully through most of the New Testament books, typically 3-10 times each; currently I've embarked to read through the OT again, and am near the end of Psalms; certain OT books like Ecclesiastes I've read more than twice, because they are so interesting). There might be other ways of understanding of how soul and spirit relate together, but this one makes good sense with scripture.
Most Christians settle for the soul as being the seat of the mind, will and emotions. It sounds right and might well be right.If your view is significantly different from that, it would cause us to have trouble discussing other parts of our questions, as this is more fundamental, initial. Do you have a different view, and what is it, and where could I read up on it in precise detail?
This is obviously one of the key verses on the subject, showing clearly that soul and spirit are different.
Not sure I agree with this, as scripture shows that even God has a soul!
Matt12v18.(quoting Isaiah42v1)"Behold My servant, whom I have chosen, My beloved, in whom My soul has found delight. I will put My Spirit upon Him, and He will proclaim justice to the Gentiles.
God is saying that His soul delights in Jesus!
I am sure we are both well read in the scriptures.
Most Christians settle for the soul as being the seat of the mind, will and emotions. It sounds right and might well be right.
Unfortunately, vast amounts of so called theology are rooted in secular philosophy and psychology, so even the above may need revisiting.
Notwithstanding that, I still believe that both soul and spirit come via our parents, going all the way back to Adam.
Scripture doesn't tell us when we get souls. I wish it did. Since we do not know, best to err on the side of caution and not abort unless it is medically necessary to save the mother's life.
I didn't say physical, I believe our spiritual body parallels our physical body.I'm still surprised, and it's just new to me in spite of hearing a lot of sermons in so many churches and discussions with so many here about often esoteric things (not mostly esoteric, but at least many discussions including esoteric things) who are from so many churches, at the idea of literally physically inheriting a soul and spirit from parents. (!?)
But human reproduction doesn't just produce physical likeness to your ancestry does it?Or even inheriting in some partly physical way -- still the same unexpected idea that seems wrong.
Physical inherited trait, merely genetic??
I'm not challenging that verse one bit. Clearly the human flesh rots in the ground as I keep pointing out. But neither your nor my flesh came directly from the ground did we. Adam was made from the mud, but we came from our mother's wombs, which I can assure you were not filled with mud!That does to me contradict for instance the Ecclesiastes verse. Here it is again in context:
……….………….. 6 before the silver cord is snapped, or the golden bowl is broken, or the pitcher is shattered at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern, 7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Ecclesiastes 12 ESV
It says of course that God gives us our spirit, and that spirit returns to Him when the dust body returns to the dust where it came from and is made of -- "and the dust returns to the earth as it was".
The body is only dust -- just part of Earth. Only mud and water in a way, composed of a brilliant organization of elements which are only physical matter -- "dust".
You perhaps recall, but this is only echoing the exact same reality told to us in Genesis, by the Lord, in plain wording, again. We are from dust, and to dust these bodies will return (but not our spirits!).
As best I can paraphrase: This physical body is from dust, God gives spirit to make us more than only "dust" alone, and because of this spirit given to the body, we have a soul then, and when the body dies the indwelling spirit/soul then returns to Him.
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