soul/self

[quatona]

Every now and then I try to wrap my mind around the concept(s) of "soul".
If I understand correctly, it´s supposed to be (or carry or contain) our non-physical essence which at some point manifests in a physical entity.

How does the "soul" relate to the "self"? Are these basically the same (i.e. our essence)?

Questions for those who believe that we/our souls go to heaven/hell:

- What exactly is going to heaven/hell (what is my essence)? Which parts/aspects of me? What constitutes the continuity that should prompt me to think of that which will be in heaven/hell as "me"?
Memory?
Character?
Core beliefs?
Thinking patterns?
Emotional make up?
Patterns of perception and interpretation?
Grade of intelligence?
...?

(Same questions go accordingly to those who believe in reincarnation - i.e. what constitutes the continuity that should prompt me to think of a certain existence as "my former existence" or "my future existence"? What are those important aspects that are kept so that I should think "that was me" or "that will be me"?)

TIA

 

[GrowingSmaller]

I may have religious beliefs, but I don't really have much of an opinion about whether I am ensouled or not.

 

[juvenissun]

Every now and then I try to wrap my mind around the concept(s) of "soul".
If I understand correctly, it´s supposed to be (or carry or contain) our non-physical essence which at some point manifests in a physical entity.

How does the "soul" relate to the "self"? Are these basically the same (i.e. our essence)?

Questions for those who believe that we/our souls go to heaven/hell:

- What exactly is going to heaven/hell (what is my essence)? Which parts/aspects of me? What constitutes the continuity that should prompt me to think of that which will be in heaven/hell as "me"?
Memory?
Character?
Core beliefs?
Thinking patterns?
Emotional make up?
Patterns of perception and interpretation?
Grade of intelligence?
...?

(Same questions go accordingly to those who believe in reincarnation - i.e. what constitutes the continuity that should prompt me to think of a certain existence as "my former existence" or "my future existence"? What are those important aspects that are kept so that I should think "that was me" or "that will be me"?)

TIA

Well, you like to talk about soul, means you do feel something is not right if we do not accept the idea of soul. If so, the first thing you want to think about is: what is not exactly right if a person completely disappeared once the heart stop beating?

If you find deficiency in the physical life, then at least the remedy of that deficiency would be in the soul.

Of course, Christianity has a complete and good answer to this question.

 

[drich0150]

Every now and then I try to wrap my mind around the concept(s) of "soul".
If I understand correctly, it´s supposed to be (or carry or contain) our non-physical essence which at some point manifests in a physical entity.

How does the "soul" relate to the "self"? Are these basically the same (i.e. our essence)?

Questions for those who believe that we/our souls go to heaven/hell:

- What exactly is going to heaven/hell (what is my essence)? Which parts/aspects of me? What constitutes the continuity that should prompt me to think of that which will be in heaven/hell as "me"?
Memory?
Character?
Core beliefs?
Thinking patterns?
Emotional make up?
Patterns of perception and interpretation?
Grade of intelligence?
...?

(Same questions go accordingly to those who believe in reincarnation - i.e. what constitutes the continuity that should prompt me to think of a certain existence as "my former existence" or "my future existence"? What are those important aspects that are kept so that I should think "that was me" or "that will be me"?)

TIA

Sounds like you need to do some soul searching

 

[GrayAngel]

The Bible makes a distinction between soul and spirit. The soul includes our personality and memories. But the spirit is something else. If you survive major brain trauma, you can experience a complete personality change (change in the soul), but your spirit will remain the same.

When you die, it is your spirit that lives on. The Bible teaches that we will have a new body in Heaven, along with a new and pure soul. This is how we finally shed off our sin nature.

 

[quatona]

Well, you like to talk about soul, means you do feel something is not right if we do not accept the idea of soul.

Sorry, but that doesn´t follow at all.

If so, the first thing you want to think about is: what is not exactly right if a person completely disappeared once the heart stop beating?

If you find deficiency in the physical life, then at least the remedy of that deficiency would be in the soul.

Of course, Christianity has a complete and good answer to this question.

Thanks for your thoughts. Now, would you like to respond to the question in the OP?
Is there something you found hard to understand? Something I should try to explain better?

 

[quatona]

The Bible makes a distinction between soul and spirit. The soul includes our personality and memories. But the spirit is something else. If you survive major brain trauma, you can experience a complete personality change (change in the soul), but your spirit will remain the same.

When you die, it is your spirit that lives on. The Bible teaches that we will have a new body in Heaven, along with a new and pure soul. This is how we finally shed off our sin nature.

Thank you! That´s an interesting distinction - a distinction I wasn´t aware of.
In this conceptual setting it seems like "soul" would have to be replaced with "spirit" in the OP.
Would you be willing to try to answer the OP accordingly?

 

[quatona]

I may have religious beliefs, but I don't really have much of an opinion about whether I am ensouled or not.

Not that you are under any obligation to respond to the OP or something - but I think the actual questions I asked don´t really require the term/concept "soul".

 

[juvenissun]

Sorry, but that doesn´t follow at all.


Thanks for your thoughts. Now, would you like to respond to the question in the OP?
Is there something you found hard to understand? Something I should try to explain better?

Since this is a philosophy forum, I tend not to give you a straight forward religious answer. Religion has answers. But I think what you need is the thinking process.

There is a need for soul because there is something in our physical life which "should" continue after the physical death. Otherwise, either we do not need soul, nor to have soul is an unbearable punishment.

So, my question (answer) to you is which one among your list is desirable to continue after this life?

Take reincarnation as an example, what is the purpose of reincarnation? Buddhism and Hinduism have different answers. What is the nature desirable to be preserved in the soul, should be closely related to the ultimate purpose. For some shallow examples: bad people got away in their current life, so they should be punished in the next life. Or good people did not get rewarded in this life, so they should be rewarded in the next life. etc. etc.

If you satisfied with the current life and has no desire to continue on any part of it after death, then why do you need the question? If you do want something of you to continue, what or which should it be?

Now, assume your answer is yes. Then the first question to ask is: How much should the soul preserve what you are (minus the material of your body)? 100%? or 50%? or just the most critical 10%? May be after that, we may consider what nature of the % should be.

 

[quatona]

Since this is a philosophy forum, I tend not to give you a straight forward religious answer. Religion has answers.

Just give me your answer/concept.

But I think what you need is the thinking process.

I´m always happy to be offered an interesting thinking process.

There is a need for soul because there is something in our physical life which "should" continue after the physical death.

Sounds like an appeal to wishful thinking to me. Anyway, I didn´t ask "Why should there be a soul?".

Otherwise, either we do not need soul, nor to have soul is an unbearable punishment.

You seem to keep answering questions I hadn´t asked.

So, my question (answer) to you is which one among your list is desirable to continue after this life?

So the "soul" is what I want it to be, or something?

If you satisfied with the current life and has no desire to continue on any part of it after death, then why do you need the question?

I don´t need the question. I am interested in learning about concepts.

If you do want something of you to continue, what or which should it be? Now, assume your answer is yes. Then the first question to ask is: How much should the soul preserve what you are (minus the material of your body)? 100%? or 50%? or just the most critical 10%? May be after that, we may consider what nature of the % should be.

Apparently my OP was highly misunderstandable. Sorry for that.

 

[juvenissun]

Just give me your answer/concept.

I´m always happy to be offered an interesting thinking process.


Sounds like an appeal to wishful thinking to me. Anyway, I didn´t ask "Why should there be a soul?".

You seem to keep answering questions I hadn´t asked.


So the "soul" is what I want it to be, or something?



I don´t need the question. I am interested in learning about concepts.



Apparently my OP was highly misunderstandable. Sorry for that.

These questions I asked you are those that will come back to haunt the discussion if I gave you a straight forward answer at the first place.

Now, I will see how do you handle this:

Christianity says your soul will still be 100% you. It includes everyone on your list, even the gender will still be there. It is an answer, an extreme type.

Now what? Are you going to ask why? How about why not?

 

[quatona]

These questions I asked you are those that will come back to haunt the discussion if I gave you a straight forward answer at the first place.

Only if you insist on repeating them.

Now, I will see how do you handle this:

Christianity says your soul will still be 100% you. It includes everyone on your list, even the gender will still be there. It is an answer, an extreme type.

Ok, thanks for your opinion and, finally, a straightforward answer.

Now what?

Now I have heard your take on it.

Are you going to ask why?

Why what?

How about why not?

Why not what?

 

[GrayAngel]

These questions I asked you are those that will come back to haunt the discussion if I gave you a straight forward answer at the first place.

Now, I will see how do you handle this:

Christianity says your soul will still be 100% you. It includes everyone on your list, even the gender will still be there. It is an answer, an extreme type.

Now what? Are you going to ask why? How about why not?

I'm not so sure about that. The Bible says that we would become like the angels.

Matthew 22:23-30 - That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. “Teacher,” they said, “Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and raise up offspring for him. Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. Finally, the woman died. Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”
Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven."

 

[juvenissun]

I'm not so sure about that. The Bible says that we would become like the angels.

Matthew 22:23-30 - That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. “Teacher,” they said, “Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and raise up offspring for him. Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. Finally, the woman died. Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”
Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven."

That means: there will be no new human soul. What Jesus talked about is a physical matter, it does not apply to spiritual matter. I guess in that particular case, even they will still all know each other but there will be no husband-wife relationship.

Jesus's answer is wonderful. It solves a big problem for us while we are still on the earth.

 

[3sigma]

...The soul includes our personality and memories. But the spirit is something else...

When you die, it is your spirit that lives on. The Bible teaches that we will have a new body in Heaven, along with a new and pure soul. This is how we finally shed off our sin nature.

This is interesting. You say that when you go to heaven, you won’t remember who you were or any experiences you ever had and you won’t remember your wife, your children, your parents or anyone you ever knew or loved. You may, by chance, meet your parents or grandparents in heaven, but you won’t know them because they are different personalities and neither you nor they remember each other. That may be disappointing to some Christians who had hopes of being reunited with their parents or other people they loved when they go to heaven. Maybe heaven isn’t so appealing after all.

 

[Tzaousios]

That may be disappointing to some Christians who had hopes of being reunited with their parents or other people they loved when they go to heaven. Maybe heaven isn’t so appealing after all.

Were you actually looking for an answer to believe in heaven? Something tells me you were not. What does that say about your motives?

 

[3sigma]

Were you actually looking for an answer to believe in heaven? Something tells me you were not. What does that say about your motives?

Of course I’m not looking for a reason to believe in heaven. As far as I’m concerned, everything points to it being imaginary. I’m wondering why Christians believe in it when there is no sound reason to do so and it now appears there is almost no emotional incentive to believe in it. You wouldn’t even be you. I’m guessing most don’t think they will lose their personality and memories when they go to heaven and that GrayAngel’s belief is an aberration.

 

[GrayAngel]

Oh, 3sigma. I can always count on you showing up to start trouble. But I've been down this road before, and I'm not gonna bother.

 

[3sigma]

But I've been down this road before, and I'm not gonna bother.

Suit yourself. I didn’t expect you to be able to explain how without your body, without your personality and without your memories it could still be considered to be you in heaven. It is curious, though, that your idea of what happens when we die now appears to be the same as mine. When we die, our body stops and our personality and memories cease to exist. It is the total and permanent end to our existence.

 

[quatona]

Oh, 3sigma. I can always count on you showing up to start trouble. But I've been down this road before, and I'm not gonna bother.

Could we please keep the ad hominems out of this thread? Thanks.