Soteriology and Debate

[atpollard]

I was a bit surprised that none of the posts under "Soteriology Debate" were an actual DEBATE about HOW GOD SAVES (Soteriology).
So what the heck, let's pick a fight:

I say God saves people JUST LIKE THIS:
"if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved." - Romans 10:9-10 [ESV]

WHAT WE MUST DO:

• confess with mouth "Jesus is Lord" (not necessarily verbatim, it isn't an incantation).
• believe in your heart "God raised him from the dead"

WHAT HAPPENS AS A RESULT:

• one believes & "is justified"
• one confesses & "is saved"

That's it. [BOOM!] (mic drop)

 

[atpollard]

Anyone want to debate (argue politely)?

 

[sandman]

I disagree .... I believe it should be that we confess first .....
Sorry .....that is the best I can give for an argument. ....There is nothing to argue when God declares it in His Word.

• one confesses & "is saved"

• one believes & "is justified"

 

[HTacianas]

I was a bit surprised that none of the posts under "Soteriology Debate" were an actual DEBATE about HOW GOD SAVES (Soteriology).
So what the heck, let's pick a fight:

I say God saves people JUST LIKE THIS:
"if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved." - Romans 10:9-10 [ESV]

WHAT WE MUST DO:

• confess with mouth "Jesus is Lord" (not necessarily verbatim, it isn't an incantation).
• believe in your heart "God raised him from the dead"

WHAT HAPPENS AS A RESULT:

• one believes & "is justified"
• one confesses & "is saved"

That's it. [BOOM!] (mic drop)

What comes after that?

 

[atpollard]

What comes after that?

For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame." (Romans 10:11)

... or did you mean "Soteriology" speaking?
Personally, I think these verses [Romans 10:9-10] correspond to [Ephesians 2:8-9] ... so what comes next (Soteriologicaly) is:

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." - Ephesians 2:10 [ESV]

IE: Time to WALK the TALK (sanctification).

 

[Brother-Mike]

Acknowledging that there's some ambiguity between Romans 10:9 and 10:10 (i.e. "will be saved" versus "is saved"), I myself can accept the "was/is/will be" dynamic here and don't disagree with your main thrust.

But since you've rudely dropped your mic and are spoiling for a fight debate then let me fix up your summary for you:

WHAT WE MUST DO (and were always predestined to do):

• confess with mouth "Jesus is Lord" (not necessarily verbatim, it isn't an incantation).
• believe in your heart "God raised him from the dead"

WHAT HAPPENS (as was always written in the Lamb's Book of Life) AS A RESULT:

• one believes & "is justified"
• one confesses & "is saved"

 

[atpollard]

I disagree .... I believe it should be that we confess first .....
Sorry .....that is the best I can give for an argument. ....There is nothing to argue when God declares it in His Word.

• one confesses & "is saved"
• one believes & "is justified"

Good question!

So gentle Christians. We have four things linked together in two "cause-effect" groups:

• "if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord - with the mouth one confesses and is saved"
• "[If you] believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead - with the heart one believes and is justified"

In verse 9, the order is "mouth" then "heart" and in verse 10 the order is "heart" then "mouth".

Do y'all think there is a REQUIRED order ("Soteriology" speaking)?
Do y'all think the order varies from person to person ("Soteriology" speaking)?

Personally, I think they are two sides of the same coin. Who confesses without belief? Who can believe and not confess Jesus as Lord?
"For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks." - Luke 6:45 [partial quote]

 

[Brother-Mike]

Personally, I think they are two sides of the same coin. Who confesses without belief? Who can believe and not confess Jesus as Lord?

I can imagine flavors of non-believers who fit either of these categories. E.g:

1. One that mouths a confession but truly does not believe.
2. One the believes but either refuses to confess (perhaps thinking "well, I believe so that's it right?") or fails to see the nature of their own sin and thus believes no confession is necessary.

For me it's always useful to remember that apostasy and false-belief pervade any belief system, and thus serve as correcting guide markers for any model of salvation or belief-testing.

 

[Soyeong]

I was a bit surprised that none of the posts under "Soteriology Debate" were an actual DEBATE about HOW GOD SAVES (Soteriology).
So what the heck, let's pick a fight:

I say God saves people JUST LIKE THIS:
"if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved." - Romans 10:9-10 [ESV]

WHAT WE MUST DO:

• confess with mouth "Jesus is Lord" (not necessarily verbatim, it isn't an incantation).
• believe in your heart "God raised him from the dead"

WHAT HAPPENS AS A RESULT:

• one believes & "is justified"
• one confesses & "is saved"

That's it. [BOOM!] (mic drop)

In Romans 10:5-10, our faith references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 in regard to saying that God's law is not too difficult to obey, that the one who obeys it will obtain life by it, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God raised him from the dead. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so living in obedience to God's law is intrinsically the content of the gift of Jesus saving us from not living in obedience to it. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so again, God graciously teaching us to obey His law for how to do those works is itself the content of His gift of saving us from not doing those works. Moreover, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem himself from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in that God raised Jesus from the dead (Acts 21:20). Furthermore, Romans 10:16 speaks against those who do not obey the Gospel.

 

[sandman]

Good question!

So gentle Christians. We have four things linked together in two "cause-effect" groups:

• "if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord - with the mouth one confesses and is saved"
• "[If you] believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead - with the heart one believes and is justified"

In verse 9, the order is "mouth" then "heart" and in verse 10 the order is "heart" then "mouth".

Do y'all think there is a REQUIRED order ("Soteriology" speaking)?
Do y'all think the order varies from person to person ("Soteriology" speaking)?

Personally, I think they are two sides of the same coin. Who confesses without belief? Who can believe and not confess Jesus as Lord?
"For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks." - Luke 6:45 [partial quote]

I think you are right “same coin”

Where are all those who believe in works? or believe that everyone is saved regardless of accepting Jesus as Lord?

Speaking of works …. we didn’t even have to work for our salvation, as it was made unto us.

The word “unto” in Rom 10:10 is the Greek “eis” and describes a motion into any place … It denotes the motion unto an object with the purpose of reaching it. Whereas “pros” only denotes…. the approach to.

Euclid (ancient Greek mathematician) used “eis” when a line was drawn to meet another line at a certain point.

 

[atpollard]

In Romans 10:5-10, our faith references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 in regard to saying that God's law is not too difficult to obey, that the one who obeys it will obtain life by it, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God raised him from the dead. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so living in obedience to God's law is intrinsically the content of the gift of Jesus saving us from not living in obedience to it. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so again, God graciously teaching us to obey His law for how to do those works is itself the content of His gift of saving us from not doing those works. Moreover, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem himself from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in that God raised Jesus from the dead (Acts 21:20). Furthermore, Romans 10:16 speaks against those who do not obey the Gospel.

I quoted Romans 10:9-10 in the OP and it says NONE of that. As far as I can tell, “believing in your heart” is the opposite of living in obedience to the written law of the OT. So you are going to have to offer a more detailed exegesis of Romans 10 if you want to make your case from Romans 10.

(My opinion).

 

[d taylor]

I was a bit surprised that none of the posts under "Soteriology Debate" were an actual DEBATE about HOW GOD SAVES (Soteriology).
So what the heck, let's pick a fight:

I say God saves people JUST LIKE THIS:
"if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved." - Romans 10:9-10 [ESV]

WHAT WE MUST DO:

• confess with mouth "Jesus is Lord" (not necessarily verbatim, it isn't an incantation).
• believe in your heart "God raised him from the dead"

WHAT HAPPENS AS A RESULT:

• one believes & "is justified"
• one confesses & "is saved"

That's it. [BOOM!] (mic drop)

That is not a verse or verses, that are addressing how an unbeliever becomes a believer. Romans 10:9-10 is addressing the saving of believers.

 

[d taylor]

I disagree .... I believe it should be that we confess first .....
Sorry .....that is the best I can give for an argument. ....There is nothing to argue when God declares it in His Word.

• one confesses & "is saved"
• one believes & "is justified"

What about the believers who did not confess.

 

[Soyeong]

I quoted Romans 10:9-10 in the OP and it says NONE of that. As far as I can tell, “believing in your heart” is the opposite of living in obedience to the written law of the OT. So you are going to have to offer a more detailed exegesis of Romans 10 if you want to make your case from Romans 10.

(My opinion).

The context of Romans 10:9-10 influences how those verses should be understood, so you should be willing to discuss verses 5-8 and 16, especially because it would make no sense for Paul to say what he did in those verses if "believing in your heart" is the opposite of living in obedience to God's law. Furthermore, it is also relevant to discuss the broader context of verses that speak about what it means to confess that Jesus is Lord, to believe, and to be saved. For example, in Luke 6:46, Jesus asked why they called him Lord but didn't do what he said, confessing that Jesus is Lord is committing to do what he said. If you want to base your understanding of how God saves only on Romans 10:9-10 while ignoring the surrounding and broader context, then you are quote mining.

Our actions reveal our beliefs, which is why there are many verses that connect our belief with our actions. For example, in James 2:17-18, faith without works is dead and he would show his faith by his works. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds God's law. In Hebrews 11, every example of faith is an example of works. In Hebrews 3:18-19, unbelief is equated with disobedience. In Numbers 5:6, disobedience is described as breaking faith.

 

[sandman]

What about the believers who did not confess.

From what I have concluded based on several different scripture …a person in this administration of grace who does not commit to Jesus Christ as their savior would be evaluated (judged) on their works (what kind of person they were) at the resurrection…… What the criteria is (pass/fail) I don’t know …... I just know God looks on the heart…

 

[disciple Clint]

well if u want to argue the standards disagreements seem to center around the requirement of lack there of for Baptism, and or Repentance, and or some works, any one of these issues will generally start a war.

 

[d taylor]

From what I have concluded based on several different scripture …a person in this administration of grace who does not commit to Jesus Christ as their savior would be evaluated (judged) on their works (what kind of person they were) at the resurrection…… What the criteria is (pass/fail) I don’t know …... I just know God looks on the heart…

If that is the case why does The Bible state when a person believes in The Messiah they cross over from death to life and are not judged.

 

[sandman]

If that is the case why does The Bible state when a person believes in The Messiah they cross over from death to life and are not judged.

I don't read that anywhere

 

[atpollard]

That is not a verse or verses, that are addressing how an unbeliever becomes a believer. Romans 10:9-10 is addressing the saving of believers.

The very CONCEPT of an "unsaved believer" needing to be saved strikes me as a self-contradiction (like a married bachelor).
Sorry, but I will need more than your brief claim that it is so to warrant more of a response. Would you care to exegete Romans 10 to support your claims:

1. an "unsaved believer" actually can exist.
2. Romans 10 is talking about how "believers" get "saved".

 

[d taylor]

I don't read that anywhere

-​

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.