Something doesn't feel right about BLM

[istodolez]

Then it's not part of a system...

There are MANY many systems which exist that are NOT LAW BASED. For instance, I have a system for making a Tableau data dashboard. There is no "law" involved.

If it's written in law or policy you can argue it's systemic....but since it isn't, it can't be.

There is no such limitation on the word "System". Sorry.

And the funny part is that in all 7 of those posts....you offer zero solutions. It's mostly you complaining about others needing to come up with solutions.

So when I suggest we need to

1. Reduce the school--> prison pipeline by working to end mass incarceration (as I did HERE and HERE)
2. Eliminate mandatory sentencing and reduce the unilateral power of DA's (as I did HERE and HERE)
3. Improve educational systems (as I did HERE)
4. Discuss our personal roles in hiring decisions (as I did HERE)
5. Improve our social safety net (as I did HERE)
6. Give a necessary starting position for those of us who are white (as I did HERE)

None of those were proposed solutions? What? Did you want me to provide a BUDGET and GANT CHART for the proposal???

Like I said....you don't have any answers.

Except that I have proposed solutions albeit within my limited scope. But at least I can read and use simple search systems.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Nope.

Yup.

They are not facts but you are free to think that.

Of course they're facts...no group that big is devoid of racism.

Sorry. BLM didn't start off as a racist concept and even if the org aligns themselves with Farrakhan I won't align with that. But I do honestly believe in the original intent: that if all lives matter that we must also act like BLACK LIVES MATTER.

I don't know why this has to be so complicated. Unless, of course, you have some bigger reason to repudiate the concept.

You're a fan of history....the nazi party didn't start off as racist either. The majority of its initial 10 years was all about class struggle....the haves and the have nots. It wasn't until about 1930 that the racists who had worked their way into power within the party shifted the focus to eliminating jews.

I'm not saying BLM is the nazi party....but I'm also too smart to stand next to racists claiming to fight racism.

That would make me a hypocrite.

 

[istodolez]

I'm not saying BLM is the nazi party....but I'm also too smart to stand next to racists claiming to fight racism.

That's why I distinguish between what the leadership of this new movement (the organization) and the original concept. If needs must I have ZERO problem backing completely away from BLM as an organizaiton. But that won't change my acceptance of the original concept quite apart from what people want to do.

I am not some "dues paying" member of BLM or anything. And if the organization drifts off to somewhere I don't like I have ZERO problem moving on and leaving it behind. Zero.

So compare it to the Nazi party all you want, it won't matter to me one whit. I'm more than happy to see stories you dig up about whatever evil the people in charge of the organization do. It's all interesting and good information to have.

Won't change my views on racism.

 

[Ana the Ist]

That's why I distinguish between what the leadership of this new movement (the organization) and the original concept. If needs must I have ZERO problem backing completely away from BLM as an organizaiton. But that won't change my acceptance of the original concept quite apart from what people want to do.

If you're standing in the street yelling black lives matter....you're supporting those racists whether you want to or not. You're providing them with more exposure and driving people towards the organization.

If you're online telling people to check their white privilege....you're pushing racist ideology. If you're telling people they have to be "anti-racist" or accusing them of "white fragility"...you're pushing the ideas of racists.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

If you're imagining plea deals don't happen and charges don't get dropped for black people....you're wrong.

Good thing I wasn't imagining that then.

I have no reason to believe that I can look at any two groups of people and expect them to engage in the exact same behavior, with the same level of risk, making the same effort to be careful, in all places at all times.

That's just....stupid.

Why are "white people" and "black people" necessarily two separate groups of people in this situation? They're all Americans. In the case we're talking about, they're all drug users. Those are both collective groups that might be expected to behave similarly in certain situations.

 

[istodolez]

If you're online telling people to check their white privilege....you're pushing racist ideology.

White fragility on display! Good show!

If you're telling people they have to be "anti-racist" or accusing them of "white fragility"...you're pushing the ideas of racists.

OOOOOH, no! Gosh ahmighty!

Get past it. You can then become part of the solution.

 

[Ana the Ist]

White fragility on display! Good show!

You don't want a conversation....you want to blame and shame people based on their skin color.

Blatantly racist.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Good thing I wasn't imagining that then.

Then what are you claiming?

Why are "white people" and "black people" necessarily two separate groups of people in this situation? They're all Americans. In the case we're talking about, they're all drug users. Those are both collective groups that might be expected to behave similarly in certain situations.

Let's just look at the group of white drug users then...

If we divided them into 2 groups based on age....say those under 30 and those over 30...do you think they'll be arrested at the same rate?

 

[Chesterton]

That's why I distinguish between what the leadership of this new movement (the organization) and the original concept. If needs must I have ZERO problem backing completely away from BLM as an organizaiton. But that won't change my acceptance of the original concept quite apart from what people want to do.

The original concept of BLM is Marxism.

"We actually do have an ideological frame... we are trained Marxists." - Patrisse Cullors, Co-Founder, #BlackLivesMatter

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Then what are you claiming?

Exactly what I said - that whites are more likely to not face charges, simply by virtue of being able to afford, on average, better lawyers.

Let's just look at the group of white drug users then...

If we divided them into 2 groups based on age....say those under 30 and those over 30...do you think they'll be arrested at the same rate?

Probably not. But, do they use drugs at the same rate? (Hint: they don't)

 

[Ana the Ist]

Exactly what I said - that whites are more likely to not face charges, simply by virtue of being able to afford, on average, better lawyers.

I doubt the vast majority of white criminals can afford a lawyer.

Probably not. But, do they use drugs at the same rate? (Hint: they don't)

Any two groups....let's say white men and women who use at the same rate....think they'll get busted at the same rate?

Even if we did ensure the over 30s and under 30s were using at the same rate, I wouldn't expect them to get busted at the same rate.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

I doubt the vast majority of white criminals can afford a lawyer.

And an even vaster majority of black criminals cannot either.

Any two groups....let's say white men and women who use at the same rate....think they'll get busted at the same rate?

Men and women don't use at the same rate either, but assuming that they did, I would expect them to be arrested at the same rate. If they are not, then you need to ask why. In the case of blacks vs. whites and drug crimes, it appears to be systemic racism. Unless you have a better explanation?

 

[Ana the Ist]

And an even vaster majority of black criminals cannot either.

Rocks....no offense...but that's never going to account for the disparity in crime rates we're seeing.

Blacks commit almost 50% of murders. The vast majority of those have plenty of evidence, confessions, witnesses, etc. It's not because they can't afford a fancy lawyer.

Men and women don't use at the same rate either, but assuming that they did, I would expect them to be arrested at the same rate.

Why would you expect that?

We could easily find a group of white men and women who use marijuana at roughly the same amount.

 

[Belk]

The original concept of BLM is Marxism.

"We actually do have an ideological frame... we are trained Marxists." - Patrisse Cullors, Co-Founder, #BlackLivesMatter

In what way is black people wanting to attention to how they are treated by agents of the government Marxist? Please be specific.

 

[Ana the Ist]

In what way is black people wanting to attention to how they are treated by agents of the government Marxist? Please be specific.

One could argue that the initial cry of "we need accountability in police" was not marxist in the least...

However, now that they've gotten accountability and the cry has changed to "give us the money you use to fund police"....that's arguably a marxist play of destroying an institution through scapegoating and then pushing for wealth redistribution.

I'd say that when the next cry is either "put us in positions of power" or the destruction of another institution....yeah, you're dealing 100% with marxist revolutionaries.

 

[Belk]

One could argue that the initial cry of "we need accountability in police" was not marxist in the least...

However, now that they've gotten accountability

They seem to disagree with you on that point.

and the cry has changed to "give us the money you use to fund police"

I missed where that was their demand. I thought the request was to prioritize some of the money used for police into community building?

....that's arguably a marxist play of destroying an institution through scapegoating and then pushing for wealth redistribution.

It is certainly arguable since I have never heard of this as a common Marxist tactic. Do you have examples of where this has been used in other areas?

I'd say that when the next cry is either "put us in positions of power" or the destruction of another institution....yeah, you're dealing 100% with marxist revolutionaries.

I find your prognostication skills questionable.

 

[Ana the Ist]

They seem to disagree with you on that point.

Well the George Floyd protests are over a cop who was pretty swiftly charged with murder.

What level of accountability were they hoping for?

I missed where that was their demand. I thought the request was to prioritize some of the money used for police into community building?

How is that different from what I said? They are the community aren't they? They want the money spent on themselves, don't they?

It is certainly arguable since I have never heard of this as a common Marxist tactic. Do you have examples of where this has been used in other areas?

Yeah...in literally every marxist revolution ever. In Russia , they scapegoated wealthy/successful farmers....they took their wealth, killed them....then starved and died because they killed the successful farmers.

I find your prognostication skills questionable.

I'm willing to give anyone the benefit of the doubt....

The issue is that if defunding or abolishing the police doesn't work out (let's imagine it fails miserably) will the swarms of vapid sheep admit they were wrong? Or will they blame someone else?

 

[Belk]

Well the George Floyd protests are over a cop who was pretty swiftly charged with murder.

What level of accountability were they hoping for?

Perhaps you should ask them? My understanding is they were hoping for accountability prior to being killed by agents of the state.

How is that different from what I said? They are the community aren't they? They want the money spent on themselves, don't they?

There is a difference between "Give us the money" and "Invest in our communities".

Yeah...in literally every marxist revolution ever. In Russia , they scapegoated wealthy/successful farmers....they took their wealth, killed them....then starved and died because they killed the successful farmers.

This does not seem a parallel to your claims.

I'm willing to give anyone the benefit of the doubt....

The issue is that if defunding or abolishing the police doesn't work out (let's imagine it fails miserably) will the swarms of vapid sheep admit they were wrong? Or will they blame someone else?

I don't know. Not being a "Vapid sheep" but rather someone who can see they have been disproportionately impacted. If it is tried and it works will you still view them as "Vapid sheep"?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Perhaps you should ask them? My understanding is they were hoping for accountability prior to being killed by agents of the state.

Accountability for what? He hadn't committed murder before he committed murder.

You can't tell me they were so dumb they thought accountability = no one ever gets wrongly killed by a cop. Cops defend their lives with lethal force, rightly, about a thousand times a year. Odds are that at least a few times the cops are in the wrong. Accountability just means ensuring justice happens when they're wrong.

There is a difference between "Give us the money" and "Invest in our communities".

What's the difference? If they get services, improved schools, or other quality of life improvements that the rest of us would have to increase our taxes to get....yes, that's wealth redistribution. It's a handout. Let's be honest about it.

This does not seem a parallel to your claims.

Well let's start with the scapegoating. Police will probably wrongly kill...either deliberately or accidentally...2-3 dozen black people this year?

Black people will kill about 2500....you know, by murder.

Why are we even talking about cops if saving black lives is the issue? Why are we blaming cops and....white racists?

You can add up all the black people murdered by cops and racist white people for a decade....and it won't equal 1/10 the number killed by black people.

I don't know. Not being a "Vapid sheep" but rather someone who can see they have been disproportionately impacted. If it is tried and it works will you still view them as "Vapid sheep"?

I'd gladly admit I was wrong....but early indications don't seem too promising. We're already seeing the effects of less cops on the streets due to protests and rioting. It's causing an increase in violent crimes and murder.

If that holds true once police are defunded and cops out of jobs....well a lot of people will have indirectly caused a lot of death and suffering with their foolishness, won't they?

 

[Belk]

Accountability for what? He hadn't committed murder before he committed murder.

How many complaints of excessive force did he have?

You can't tell me they were so dumb they thought accountability = no one ever gets wrongly killed by a cop. Cops defend their lives with lethal force, rightly, about a thousand times a year. Odds are that at least a few times the cops are in the wrong. Accountability just means ensuring justice happens when they're wrong.

My but aren't we blasé about the government killing citizens.

What's the difference? If they get services, improved schools, or other quality of life improvements that the rest of us would have to increase our taxes to get....yes, that's wealth redistribution. It's a handout. Let's be honest about it.

I find nothing honest in claiming it is a handout.

Well let's start with the scapegoating. Police will probably wrongly kill...either deliberately or accidentally...2-3 dozen black people this year?

Black people will kill about 2500....you know, by murder.

Why are we even talking about cops if saving black lives is the issue? Why are we blaming cops and....white racists?

You can add up all the black people murdered by cops and racist white people for a decade....and it won't equal 1/10 the number killed by black people.

Is there a difference in accountability between a private citizen and an agent of the state?

I'd gladly admit I was wrong....but early indications don't seem too promising. We're already seeing the effects of less cops on the streets due to protests and rioting. It's causing an increase in violent crimes and murder.

If that holds true once police are defunded and cops out of jobs....well a lot of people will have indirectly caused a lot of death and suffering with their foolishness, won't they?

I do not find your claim of less police being a cause credible. It might be less of a deterrent but it is not a cause.