Something About Mary

[Stryder06]

It's the matter of the heart and not the actions.
For outward appearances are wrong - or Christ would have been wrong - for His outward appearances to the 'understanding' of the Pharisees was error.

Again, the opinion of the wicked doesn't count. The Pharisees were plotting Jesus' death, do you really think they would have seen ANY good in anything He did?

He ate with sinners... WE know He came to call sinners - nd so He hd to accept them in order for them to feel accepted and want to please Him.

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Jesus ate with sinners because that's what we are. What He didn't do was justify their way of living and tell them, it's ok. I know your heart. He said "Go and sin no more". His call to the sinner was for them to repent, not to lay about lazily in their mess.

Same with what Catholics/EO do. Its not worship - our own witness and statements tell you we do not worship.
So why is there resistance?

Did you read my keg illustration?
BTW, not that it will matter, but I'm not pointing the finger at any individual person here. I'm more so trying to examine the practice as it was established by the church that gives it the ok.

Dont look at the actions - remember only the Lord reads hearts...
We know our hearts - i know mine.

The Lord reads the heart to discern the actions. And yes, while God will excuse one's actions based on their ignorance, one's actions will not be excused if they continue in doing something wrong, despite what the Lord is trying to show them.

I think ppl fear things that just dont exist.

I think people fear change from fear that they'd have to admit their practice is wrong.

 

[sculleywr]

God didn't say that we have to be sinless in order to pray.

As for all the other points you've made, I don't know many Scriptures that explain to us the everyday life of those who are asleep in Christ so I'm not so sure if I understand the latter things you write.

No it doesn't, but sin, especially habitual sin, hinders our prayers because it gets between us and God, disrupting our fellowship.

As to the status of those asleep in Christ:

1. They are alive.
Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death."
John 8:51
Because they are alive, they can consciously pray.

2. They are perfect and incorruptible
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
I Peter 1:4
Because they are incorruptible and perfect, their fellowship with God is completely unhindered by sin, and their time spent in prayer may go on unhindered by earthly need.

3. They are like Christ, for they have now seen Christ as He is:
Beloved, now we are Children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He is revealed we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
I John 3:2
being like Christ, they would, by necessity, intercede for us. That is the nature of Christ, and all those who are like Christ would intercede for us as well.

4. They are aware of what is going on here on earth
Revelation 6
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.
In this case, they are aware that the full judgment of God has not yet come, but it will come soon for them. Even people in the torments were aware of things beyond their existence, as the Rich Man asked for Lazarus to be sent back to tell his brothers.

5. They are praying constantly
And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God's people.
Revelations 5:6


Knowing that they are holy and perfect, we know that they would follow the commands of God, which include interceding for others. This is just a little of what we know. There is probably more, but my knowledge of things is limited. This was certainly enough for me.

 

[Thekla]

I totally and completely disagree with this. Whenever I see a picture of someone knelling in prayer out in a field of flowers, or on a grassy hill, I don't know what their denominational affiliation is. That would be someone praying to God. If someone else reads more into that, that's not your problem because you're not doing anything wrong. That's not an action that is prohibited by God.

And this is no different than bowing or kneeling when praying in the vicinity of icons.

Yes, they will. That's not your problem. If you're bowing before God and someone wants to make it more than that, you can't help that, nor do you need to worry about it.

You're correct - it's not my problem.

But it is unfortunate that so many in this thread choose to interpret kneeling etc. when praying in the vicinity of a statue or icon as idol worship - despite the fact that their brothers and sisters who do tell others in this thread they are not worshiping idols, but that they (we) worship God only.

 

[Thekla]

Again, the opinion of the wicked doesn't count. The Pharisees were plotting Jesus' death, do you really think they would have seen ANY good in anything He did?

Can you see anything but 'wrong' in the practice under discussion of EO and RC ?

 

[sculleywr]

I totally and completely disagree with this. Whenever I see a picture of someone knelling in prayer out in a field of flowers, or on a grassy hill, I don't know what their denominational affiliation is. That would be someone praying to God. If someone else reads more into that, that's not your problem because you're not doing anything wrong. That's not an action that is prohibited by God.

There are many, especially Hindu, beliefs where a person will worship natural objects. Trees, rivers, grass, air. All of it has been worshiped in one culture or another. There was even a man, met by a missionary in Japan, who worshiped a god that apparently resided in his own bellybutton.

But praying to Christ before an Icon of Christ is no more idolatry than it would be to pray to Christ anywhere else. A person could be physically forced to kneel before a statue of Molech, and though he be kneeling there, he prays to Christ. It is not the location which makes the prayer. It is not the image which makes the Icon. It is the God of the location which makes the prayer, and the God of the image Who makes the Icon. Without God, the Icon is nothing. But with God, the Icon becomes a powerful tool in the hands of an almighty God to teach us and to guide us.

 

[Stryder06]

It says not to bow down to idols. An idol would be anything you make an idol, anything you worship as a god. Therefore, if it's not something you worship, and you bow in front of it, it's not worshipping, because by definition, worship involves something you believe to be a god.

Also, why does bowing or kneeling in a certain place necessarily involve something in the vicinity of where you're kneeling??? Like, how far must I be away from a statue before I'm considered not bowing to the statue?

Graven images or likenesses... thou shalt not bow down nor serve them. That's what the text says. Funny enough the command doesn't say a thing about worship. Go figure.

So it's about how things look, not about how they are...Maybe I was there mourning her loss of her child? Who are you to assume what your sinister mind thinks I'm doing? Personally, I don't care what you think, I care what God knows.

It's not about a "sinister mind", but doing what the text says, avoiding the apperance of evil. Why? Because our actions speak louder than our words.

And it's God to care about what God knows. It's also good to do what He asks, and He asks us to avoid the apperance of evil.

Well, by definition, a graven image is an image which represents God. So, if I have an image, and it's not representing God to me, then it's not "graven".

I'm sorry but where do you find this definition?

We don't venerate, worship, or idolize statues. The statues are like pictures of the person represented. So, they're not God, they're not substitutes for God, and they're not holy. The people they represent are, but they're not in the statue. You should just leave this alone, really.

Interestingly enough, God being Holy never gave any instruction on a "representation" of who He was to be made so that the people could look upon it and worship Him through it.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

No it doesn't, but sin, especially habitual sin, hinders our prayers because it gets between us and God, disrupting our fellowship.

I agree.

As to the status of those asleep in Christ:

1. They are alive.
Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death."
John 8:51
Because they are alive, they can consciously pray.

I am not sure if the conclusion follow the premise. What eras say that they are constantly praying because they are dead in Christ?

2. They are perfect and incorruptible
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
I Peter 1:4
Because they are incorruptible and perfect, their fellowship with God is completely unhindered by sin, and their time spent in prayer may go on unhindered by earthly need.

Are the dead in Christ in heaven already? 1 Thes 4:16-17

3. They are like Christ, for they have now seen Christ as He is:
Beloved, now we are Children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He is revealed we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
I John 3:2
being like Christ, they would, by necessity, intercede for us. That is the nature of Christ, and all those who are like Christ would intercede for us as well.

Isn't the revealing of Christ the day of Judgment? And the Scripture doesn't say that we take on His character.


-"

4. They are aware of what is going on here on earth
Revelation 6
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.
In this case, they are aware that the full judgment of God has not yet come, but it will come soon for them. Even people in the torments were aware of things beyond their existence, as the Rich Man asked for Lazarus to be sent back to tell his brothers.

And yet notice there isn't an intercession on any of our behalf. The rich man wanted that and Abraham said no " They have the law and the prophecy" and someone told the dead Saints to wait before they were avenged because other saints had to be killed.

5. They are praying constantly
And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God's people.
Revelations 5:6

Not to claim that it is not the dead saints, but I'm assuming that bowl is everyone's prayers.

Knowing that they are holy and perfect, we know that they would follow the commands of God, which include interceding for others. This is just a little of what we know. There is probably more, but my knowledge of things is limited. This was certainly enough for me.

That still doesn't explain the fact that we are never told to pray to a dead person to intercede for us. And none of the verses oven, showed that they prayed for us. In fact the one you show in Revalation said that they "cried out with a loud voice" appealing for Him to destroy those on their own behalf.

But I don't understand l, why not just pray to the only God we know who hears our prayers?

 

[WarriorAngel]

Again, the opinion of the wicked doesn't count. The Pharisees were plotting Jesus' death, do you really think they would have seen ANY good in anything He did?

You do know - it was because of what He did and said - that gave them a case to want to kill Him...you are aware of course.

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Jesus ate with sinners because that's what we are. What He didn't do was justify their way of living and tell them, it's ok. I know your heart. He said "Go and sin no more". His call to the sinner was for them to repent, not to lay about lazily in their mess.

You are speaking 'in the know' given to you - thru the 'UNDERSTANDING' of His actions...thru His Apostles teaching.
As an orthodox Jew in that time - it was 'the action' they 'judged' Him on.

All is not as they appear.

Did you read my keg illustration?
BTW, not that it will matter, but I'm not pointing the finger at any individual person here. I'm more so trying to examine the practice as it was established by the church that gives it the ok.

It had to be ok in the early Church - this is where history comes in.
The Synagogues [where Jesus went to read the scrolls et al] had icons.
The early Churches were using the Synagogues at first - and then icons were in use to 'teach the illiterate'.

It so happens - reflecting on the "BIBLE" via images - is how Christians prayed.
They didnt sit down and read a Bible to call to mind the Lord - they saw pictorials and prayed near them - as the Bible reminds you to pray.

Knowledge of 'actions' [such as being in the know of why Jesus did what He did - which came later] is better than assumptions and judgments.

The Lord reads the heart to discern the actions. And yes, while God will excuse one's actions based on their ignorance, one's actions will not be excused if they continue in doing something wrong, despite what the Lord is trying to show them.

This argument - was used by Pharisees - they only saw outward actions to judge Christ as a miscreant.
Do you 'really and truly' believe that if they KNEW Who He was - they would have crucified Him?

They may have been haughty - but they werent blasphemous intentionally.
'Father forgive them, for they know NOT what they do...'

Just as you really and truly do not know our hearts - and particularly - how historic this practice is. [and why - which i explained above]

I think people fear change from fear that they'd have to admit their practice is wrong.

Then i will await for the apology for judging that which is completely in error.

Graven images or likenesses... thou shalt not bow down nor serve them. That's what the text says. Funny enough the command doesn't say a thing about worship. Go figure.



It's not about a "sinister mind", but doing what the text says, avoiding the apperance of evil. Why? Because our actions speak louder than our words.

And it's God to care about what God knows. It's also good to do what He asks, and He asks us to avoid the apperance of evil.



I'm sorry but where do you find this definition?



Interestingly enough, God being Holy never gave any instruction on a "representation" of who He was to be made so that the people could look upon it and worship Him through it.

Yes - yes He did.

Think Ark of the Covenant - it was ornate in heavenly Angels and what not.
His demand it be that way.

God never ever refused actual Holy Images be used...or the Lord Himself Who sat in the synagogues filled with iconography sinned against His own laws.

There is a rightful understanding and a miscued one.
History shows us the example to use icons/memorials/statues - and the purpose behind them [illiteracy] vs taking an inanimate object and worshiping it - as an example - wiccans worshiping the earth.

THAT is the idolatry God was speaking of. Not Holy Images He Himself raised up for the purpose to remind us of Him.

 

[sculleywr]

Graven images or likenesses... thou shalt not bow down nor serve them. That's what the text says. Funny enough the command doesn't say a thing about worship. Go figure.



It's not about a "sinister mind", but doing what the text says, avoiding the apperance of evil. Why? Because our actions speak louder than our words.

And it's God to care about what God knows. It's also good to do what He asks, and He asks us to avoid the apperance of evil.



I'm sorry but where do you find this definition?



Interestingly enough, God being Holy never gave any instruction on a "representation" of who He was to be made so that the people could look upon it and worship Him through it.

Well, for one, graven image is a wrong translation. The word, both in the Hebrew and in the Greek Septuagint is IDOL. There is nothing in the language to say anything about engraved images.

Secondly, God gave us plenty of instruction of a representation of Who He IS (not was). Is not Christ enough of a representation? Curiously enough, despite the commonality of iconography at the time of Christ, Christ said nothing against it. Icons could be found in the synagogues and catacombs archaeologists have dug up. Why did Christ not mention them?

 

[Albion]

Think Ark of the Covenant - it was ornate in heavenly Angels and what not.
His demand it be that way.

God never ever refused actual Holy Images be used...or the Lord Himself Who sat in the synagogues filled with iconography sinned against His own laws.

Very true. It is HOW the images are used that is at the heart of the issue (although there are a few people who are oppposed to there being any images, period).

 

[WarriorAngel]

But I don't understand l, why not just pray to the only God we know who hears our prayers?

No one said you could not...
But where two or more are together...


And here is the thing - do we not seek intercessory prayer from family and friends?
What of those in Heaven - who are made Just and Righteous. They thru Christ - are our brethren too.
For we know the prayer of the just man avails much.

I say 'dont knock it til you try it.'

I trust if someone is in Heaven - they would be the most likely candidate to 'personally' speak to the Lord.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Graven images or likenesses... thou shalt not bow down nor serve them. That's what the text says. Funny enough the command doesn't say a thing about worship. Go figure.

Here I would have to agree with this, because (for instance) it does not say do not "cense an image" (or an icon) either. Yet thats what they were doing to the brasen serpent when Hezekiah destroyed it. And that was one God himself commanded Moses to make. It doesnt say they worshipped it there either, but I cant find a command on censing images (or icons) as some refer to the brasen serpent as an icon. For example St John of Damascus calls it an icon, and in one article believes it okay to cense icons (as he believes the brasen serpent to be) but doesnt go into why on earth when they were doing that did Hezekiah break it to pieces and it shows he had Gods approval in doing that very thing.

But other images as well. Since Daniel wouldnt fall down and worship the image Nebby set up either. If it were just a matter of heart (as God knows it) I dont know why he just didnt spare himself the trouble and just fall down before it (and simply worship God in his heart) believing this. Afterall its nothing, a chunk of wet cement or some other material made into whatever image by a craftsman.

Though I would suppose, if one is not to worship (or bow down) to the sun, moon and the stars, which were made by the living God, why would I excuse myself to that which is made by the artistry and graven device of men?

 

[sunlover1]

Well, for one, graven image is a wrong translation. The word, both in the Hebrew and in the Greek Septuagint is IDOL. There is nothing in the language to say anything about engraved images.

So you're saying that they are one in the same.
graven image=idol

 

[Thekla]

Here I would have to agree with this, because (for instance) it does not say do not "cense an image" (or an icon) either. Yet thats what they were doing to the brasen serpent when Hezekiah destroyed it. And that was one God himself commanded Moses to make. It doesnt say they worshipped it there either, but I cant find a command on censing images (or icons) as some refer to the brasen serpent as an icon. For example St John of Damascus calls it an icon, and in one article believes it okay to cense icons (as he believes the brasen serpent to be) but doesnt go into why on earth when they were doing that did Hezekiah break it to pieces and it shows he had Gods approval in doing that very thing.

But other images as well. Since Daniel wouldnt fall down and worship the image Nebby set up either. If it were just a matter of heart (as God knows it) I dont know why he just didnt spare himself the trouble and just fall down before it (and simply worship God in his heart) believing this. Afterall its nothing, a chunk of wet cement or some other material made into whatever image by a craftsman.

Though I would suppose, if one is not to worship (or bow down) to the sun, moon and the stars, which were made by the living God, why would I excuse myself to that which is made by the artistry and graven device of men?

exactly - why would any Christian worship the sun or moon, or any bit of artistry ? ( or a cell phone -- or any product of human artistry ...)

 

[Rhamiel]

So you're saying that they are one in the same.
graven image=idol

i do not think that sounds biblical

if they were the same, how could God have ordered the bronze serpent to be made or the charibum ontop of the ark
or how could He have been pleased with the images in the temple Solomon made?

 

[Fireinfolding]

So you're saying that they are one in the same.
graven image=idol

Psalm 97:7 Confounded be all they that serve graven images, that boast themselves of idols: worship him, all ye gods.

If you run the words idols and images (together) they come up separately but together in many verses

 

[Rev Randy]

Well, for one, graven image is a wrong translation. The word, both in the Hebrew and in the Greek Septuagint is IDOL. There is nothing in the language to say anything about engraved images.

Secondly, God gave us plenty of instruction of a representation of Who He IS (not was). Is not Christ enough of a representation? Curiously enough, despite the commonality of iconography at the time of Christ, Christ said nothing against it. Icons could be found in the synagogues and catacombs archaeologists have dug up. Why did Christ not mention them?

We all bow down before(or around) things. Altars, even the wall at home. Some pray with their Bible in hand. It's the heart that matters.

 

[Fireinfolding]

exactly - why would any Christian worship the sun or moon, or any bit of artistry ? ( or a cell phone -- or any product of human artistry ...)

I wouldnt consider the cellphone an art, but a means of communication. Like writing letters, far faster then pencils, paper and a carrier besides the many days to get your communications across. Whereas a dried up slab of cement just sorta sits there. Whether of water and dirt fashioned with no other purpose then eyecandy really.

 

[Fireinfolding]

We all bow down before(or around) things. Altars, even the wall at home. Some pray with their Bible in hand. It's the heart that matters.

I have prayed with a pepsi in my hand, when there wasnt a place to put it down. But then again, I have prayed with a steeringwheel in my left hand and an ice tea in my other because my cupholders are broken in my car too.

 

[Defensor Christi]

We all bow down before(or around) things. Altars, even the wall at home. Some pray with their Bible in hand. It's the heart that matters.

Yes...21st Century Americans tend to understand terms like "bow down" and even "worship" differently then they meant in the past...consider:

Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. (Rev 3:9)

14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant? (Joshua 5:14)

2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. (Psalm 138:2)