Something About Mary

[Defensor Christi]

Then in YOUR opinion, how much 'veneration' is considered worship?
I've been accused of worshiping scripture MANY times in GT.

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I know you didnt ask...but my opinion is thus,

NO ONE KNOWS BUT YOU AND THE LORD!!!!

That is why you develop a conscience...The Church FORBIDS Idolatry, it is sin...

How do you know when you are committing any other sin?

 

[Stryder06]

[/indent][/indent][/indent][/indent]I know you didnt ask...but my opinion is thus,

NO ONE KNOWS BUT YOU AND THE LORD!!!!

That is why you develop a conscience...The Church FORBIDS Idolatry, it is sin...

How do you know when you are committing any other sin?

Would you mind me asking at what point the reverence to Mary could be considered idolatry? Like what would one have to do for you to know that they were actually worshiping her? How could you, or your church tell?

What's the difference between the veneration given to Mary, and the saints for that matter, and the worship given to God. What distinguishes it? Is it simply the word? Or is there an act that would allow you to know that X person has crossed the line and is now committing idolatry?

 

[Albion]

Here is my answer:

He only needed one chance...her conception.

If you are asking me to do some kind of long division to give you a scientific answer...you sir, are barking up the wrong tree...

EDIT:

Since we are clearing up the questions asked...here was mine:

So you believe that Mary was without sin for what period of time? The day before until the day after she gave birth to the Lord? The day of? If you believe that she was sinless at the annunciation...why would you try to argue against the Immaculate Conception?

If you want to throw up a lot of diversions like this and re-phrase what I asked, we cannot proceed in an orderly way. I asked it in the way I did in order to get at a bigger point, not to trap you into something.

However, you seem unable to answer it, so I'll answer it for you. Even if the angel meant that Mary was then sinless--and there is absolutely no reason to think that's what he meant--God could have cleansed her of sin at any time over a span of years. The most likely time, if that happened, is at the annunciation itself. To invent some "Immaculate Conception" theory afterwards, thinking that it honors Mary, is wrong to do, unwarranted, and pure speculation.

 

[Defensor Christi]

Would you mind me asking at what point the reverence to Mary could be considered idolatry? Like what would one have to do for you to know that they were actually worshiping her? How could you, or your church tell?

At what point would anything become idolatry? When do we begin to worship money, people, jobs, athletes...ect? The answer is the same here...Again, it goes back to the development of one's conscience to know whether they are placing something equal to or above God...the Church may not be able to tell...

What's the difference between the veneration given to Mary, and the saints for that matter, and the worship given to God. What distinguishes it? Is it simply the word? Or is there an act that would allow you to know that X person has crossed the line and is now committing idolatry?

Good question!! The Church has theological teachings for eveything...Latria, Hyperdulia and Dulia sum it all up...read this:

EDIT: Horrible link example given...I do apologize...

 

[sunlover1]

[/indent][/indent][/indent][/indent]I know you didnt ask...but my opinion is thus,

NO ONE KNOWS BUT YOU AND THE LORD!!!!

That is why you develop a conscience...The Church FORBIDS Idolatry, it is sin...

How do you know when you are committing any other sin?

No, I didn't ask you.
But thanks for yelling your answer.
Had to cover my ears!! Did ya think I
I'm getting old and cant hear?
... or see

And so if we see another person involved in it what then?
*that was to you DC

 

[Rev Randy]

Then in YOUR opinion, how much 'veneration' is considered worship?
I've been accused of worshiping scripture MANY times in GT.

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
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It's too much when it takes your focus off Christ. That would be making her our god. The devotion is designed to lift up Christ, to get us in the attitude of prayer. Giving honor to the one who bore Christ our salvation seems perfect. I give honor to all mothers as life is conceived in them. In Mary, that life conceived is everlasting.
BTW Catholics are not required to pray the Rosary. They are encouraged but not required.

 

[Defensor Christi]

However, you seem unable to answer it, so I'll answer it for you. Even if the angel meant that Mary was then sinless--and there is absolutely no reason to think that's what he meant--God could have cleansed her of sin at any time over a span of years. The most likely time, if that happened, is at the annunciation itself. To invent some "Immaculate Conception" theory afterwards, thinking that it honors Mary, is wrong to do, unwarranted, and pure speculation.

Of course anything is possible...it's possible I am the easter bunny, just not likely...I apply the same logic to your answer.

I guess the answer to that question goes back to authority...who has the authority to tell me what's what?

 

[Defensor Christi]

And so if we see another person involved in it what then?
*that was to you DC

Sorry for yelling...

What does it look like? How do you know?

 

[Albion]

At what point would anything become idolatry? When do we begin to worship money, people, jobs, athletes...ect? The answer is the same here.

How do we value the worship of Mary to the point that it is idolatry???

I understand that if we are fixated on money or athletics such that they take over our lives, that might be called idolatrous. But how does kissing a statue of Mary and praying to her in the belief that she has divine powers become a selfish obsession? How would that work in reality? Can you give us an example?

 

[sunlover1]

Sorry for yelling...

What does it look like? How do you know?

Same thing applies.
Same way you said I know if I'm 'venerating'
someone too much.
My conscience.

No problem,
I didn't really cover my ears.
And I am old btw

So what to do if I see someone worshiping or overly venerating
anything or anyone?

 

[Albion]

Of course anything is possible...it's possible I am the easter bunny, just not likely...I apply the same logic to your answer.

I guess the answer to that question goes back to authority...who has the authority to tell me what's what?

So in the end, you just defer to your church's teaching. That's your right, but you have to appreciate, in return, that there is no Scriptural or Logical reason for those of us who are guided by the Bible to put any credence in this legend. So, no more throwing Bible verses at us, please, in order to prove your belief, since it is not derived from the Bible.

 

[Stryder06]

At what point would anything become idolatry? When do we begin to worship money, people, jobs, athletes...ect? The answer is the same here...Again, it goes back to the development of one's conscience to know whether they are placing something equal to or above God...the Church may not be able to tell...

That's the thing though, the church should be able to tell. And we're not talking about money, cars, jobs, athletes, etc. Although I don't think those things get half the attention one may give to Mary or a Saint, and and that by most is considered to be idolatry.

From your response it would seem like you believe the only form of idolatry there that exist, exists in ones mind.

Interesting fact, if someone from Israel bowed down to a statue, that was considered idolatry. What's changed since that time? Oh that's right, the culture

 

[Albion]

That's the thing though, the church should be able to tell. And we're not talking about money, cars, jobs, athletes, etc. Although I don't think those things get half the attention one may give to Mary or a Saint, and and that by most is considered to be idolatry.

From your response it would seem like you believe the only form of idolatry there that exist, exists in ones mind.

Interesting fact, if someone from Israel bowed down to a statue, that was considered idolatry. What's changed since that time? Oh that's right, the culture

It's fair IMO to say we are talking about two different kinds of Idolatry. There is the literal idolatry of worshipping something other than God--which may be the case with saint worship. And then there is the other kind of "idolatry" DC tried to switch to in his answer by which we mean valuing something Earthly so much that you make it, de facto, a kind of idol.

 

[Stryder06]

Good question!! The Church has theological teachings for eveything...Latria, Hyperdulia and Dulia sum it all up...read this:

Honor - Latria, Hyperdulia, Dulia & Simple Honor

Good to know what your church thinks about us

Heretics are wont to accuse us of idolatry when we pray before a holy picture or a statue of a Saint or angel. They are confused over the method of our honor.

 

[Rev Randy]

Same thing applies.
Same way you said I know if I'm 'venerating'
someone too much.
My conscience.

No problem,
I didn't really cover my ears.
And I am old btw

So what to do if I see someone worshiping or overly venerating
anything or anyone?

I'm butting in but I have to ask: Are you saying your conscience can tell the heart of another? I think I must have read you wrong.

 

[Metal Minister]

Good question!! The Church has theological teachings for eveything...Latria, Hyperdulia and Dulia sum it all up...read this:

Honor - Latria, Hyperdulia, Dulia & Simple Honor

*blind post*

Only because I saw this elsewhere, but latria and dulia are synonyms:

Ex 20:5 - you shall not worship (bow down to) them nor serve them. God discusses His wrath and visiting the iniquity on children, etc. In Heb, shachah is "worship" or "bow down" and `abad is "to serve".

Yet the LXX translates `abad as latreuo and douleo (out of which come latria and dulia in Latin) both.

So here we are forbidden to "`abad" anyone other than God.
Ex 23:33 - they shall not live in your land... for if you serve their gods, it will be a snare `abad here is LXX douleo.

Deut 28:64 - there you shall serve other gods, wood and stone, etc `abad here is LXX douleo.

Judg 10:10 - we have served other Baals `abad here is LXX latreuo.

http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2008/01/difference-between-latria-and-dulia-is.html?m=1

Hope this is helpful!

 

[Stryder06]

It's fair IMO to say we are talking about two different kinds of Idolatry. There is the literal idolatry of worshipping something other than God--which may be the case with saint worship. And then there is the other kind of "idolatry" DC tried to switch to in his answer by which we mean valuing something Earthly so much that you make it, de facto, a kind of idol.

I didn't know there were two different kinds. Kind of always looked at idolatry as putting anything above God and/or worshiping anything besides God. Of course the commandment against said practice also forbids the bowing down of ones self to graven images, so I believe that doing such is also a form of idolatry.

 

[Albion]

Good to know what your church thinks about us

Ah, but remember that they are willing to call us Christians, so what IS our problem anyway? --the fact that they consider us heretics, rebels, disrespectful of lawful authority, religious Johnny Come Latelys, members of make-believe church bodies, bereft of real religious validity and without legitimate sacraments or clergy, and that we are unrepentant "anti-Catholics" for mentioning it when they say how egalitarian they are towards us as is shown by them saying "We consider you to be Christians?"

 

[Fireinfolding]

I'm butting in but I have to ask: Are you saying your conscience can tell the heart of another? I think I must have read you wrong.

Me too here bro,for instance in

1Cr 5:11 it says... But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Covetousness is a form of idolatry also wouldnt there be some form of having to discern of another any of these in order to obey Paul here?

Well, if your not to eat with such a one that calls himself a brother and is any of the above?

 

[Rev Randy]

Good to know what your church thinks about us

Said the pot to the kettle. Rather mild next to the harlot of Babylon being led by the Antichrist Pope.