Something About Mary

[Rev Randy]

I get both flustered and confused when reading in a marion thread. Not about the level of devotion I have but the mindset of those who protest it. I find it akin to someone telling me I love my child too much. Or mom or even the wife. I mean by what grace do we think we have a right to tell someone they love someone too much. Love is not worship. Love is the image we are made in. We do not worship an image but God who is love.
I also do not worship what was done on the Cross but rather He who did it for the love of the world. But I highly revere what was done on the cross and have made it my life to share that Good News. I'm quite aware that many who hear me and do not know Christ, assume I worship the Cross. What they don't know is that when I view a cross, it's not the cross I see. I see love. When I view an Icon of Mary, I see Christ. When I view an icon of a Saint, I see everlasting life and my goal to see the Father.
Odd no one ever tells me that I love Mary too much straight out. But But that seems to be the meaning they're alluding too.

 

[Stryder06]

Well, the truth of the parable of Lazarus is that the rich man had all his riches on earth, went to hell, and the chasm between hell and Heaven, where Lazarus was, exists.

I think it was more about the fact that if someone wouldn't adhere to the words of Moses and the prophets that they'd be out of luck, even if someone from the dead could come back to life and speak with them.

 

[Albion]

I get both flustered and confused when reading in a marion thread. Not about the level of devotion I have but the mindset of those who protest it. I find it akin to someone telling me I love my child too much.

C'mon Rev Randy. SURELY you can appreciate that good intentions do not justify a wrongful act. Here we are discussing how much or to what level it is appropriate to take one's veneration. It does a disservice to the discussion to make out that it's an either-or proposition. Besides, you already acknowledged my point when you said that making Mary equal to God or higher than God would be "moronic." We all agree to that, so all we have to do now is decide what actions or devotions are Godly and which are not.

 

[Defensor Christi]

I get both flustered and confused when reading in a marion thread. Not about the level of devotion I have but the mindset of those who protest it. I find it akin to someone telling me I love my child too much. Or mom or even the wife. I mean by what grace do we think we have a right to tell someone they love someone too much. Love is not worship. Love is the image we are made in. We do not worship an image but God who is love.
I also do not worship what was done on the Cross but rather He who did it for the love of the world. But I highly revere what was done on the cross and have made it my life to share that Good News. I'm quite aware that many who hear me and do not know Christ, assume I worship the Cross. What they don't know is that when I view a cross, it's not the cross I see. I see love. When I view an Icon of Mary, I see Christ. When I view an icon of a Saint, I see everlasting life and my goal to see the Father.
Odd no one ever tells me that I love Mary too much straight out. But But that seems to be the meaning they're alluding too.

I think this pretty much settles this argument...very well said my friend!

 

[Defensor Christi]

C'mon Rev Randy. SURELY you can appreciate that good intentions do not justify a wrongful act. Here we are discussing how much or to what level it is appropriate to take one's veneration. It does a disservice to the discussion to make out that it's an either-or proposition. Besides, you already acknowledged my point when you said that making Mary equal to God or higher than God would be "moronic." We all agree to that, so all we have to do now is decide what actions or devotions are Godly and which are not.

But you are missing the point...who are you to judge the level of devotion an individual gives? The Church is clear, Mary is not to be worshipped...there really is nothing else to discuss...

 

[Albion]

But you are missing the point...who are you to judge the level of devotion an individual gives?

We all are making judgments here all the time, you no less than anyone else. It's the evidence that matters.

 

[Stryder06]

IF she's "most blessed" of women, that encompasses all.

That's an assumption. That's all I'm saying. If you're going to say that without any proof than that means you're assuming it to be true.

If she's most blessed of all women, then she's more blessed than Eve, who was created sinless. She sinned, disobeyed, and fell. Mary was created the same, and obeyed. We have evidence that Mary submitted to God's will here entire life.

More assumptions. You have no proof she was created sinless. And I'd find it hard to believe you have any actual proof of how Mary lived. If Mary ever told her parents no as a toddler, or told a lie when she was two after someone asked her "Did you do that?", she sinned. You have no way of proving such things never happened. You simply don't.

And submitting to God's will is the goal of every Christian.

There's that Protestant phrase again..."I don't see". How is Mary more than human? She's not-you're the one saying she is.

I digress. The "more than human" statement was in bad taste. However I still have issues with the idea that she's able to give blessings, grace, and protection. I think the only thing I haven't heard someone say is that she's able to forgive sins.

 

[Defensor Christi]

We all are making judgments here all the time, you no less than anyone else. It's the evidence that matters.

Then show me the evidence that I worship Mary...go ahead, I'll wait...I reckon that since you cannot know my heart, you cannot tell...

Again, the Church's teachings on this matter are very clear...if an individual is placing anyone or anything equal to or above God, then they are sinning...

If something seems unclear, then perhaps you fail to fully understand the teachings of the Church?

 

[Albion]

Then show me the evidence that I worship Mary...go ahead, I'll wait...I reckon that since you cannot know my heart, you cannot tell...

Again, the Church's teachings on this matter are very clear...if an individual is placing anyone or anything equal to or above God, then they are sinning...

That isn't the issue. In fact, we disposed of that quite a few posts back.

 

[Rev Randy]

C'mon Rev Randy. SURELY you can appreciate that good intentions do not justify a wrongful act. Here we are discussing how much or to what level it is appropriate to take one's veneration. It does a disservice to the discussion to make out that it's an either-or proposition. Besides, you already acknowledged my point when you said that making Mary equal to God or higher than God would be "moronic." We all agree to that, so all we have to do now is decide what actions or devotions are Godly and which are not.

Oh I know good is intended and it's not done out of hate. Just explaining how it's received. How much veneration is too much? Again I'm reading how much love is too much. Is that even possible to have too much love as long as it does not exceed what one gives the Lord? I assure you that my wife get's more attention from me than Mary does. And I don't give my wife what she deserves. The neighbor lady says i worship the ground my wife walks on. She's so wrong. All I have for my wife is love. My worship goes in only one direction.
Loving those who are no longer here on earth with us shouldn't be that foreign a concept even to the non-believer. I mean if your mom dies, you don't stop loving her. Only George Jones sang that song. RIP George.

 

[Defensor Christi]

That isn't the issue. In fact, we disposed of that quite a few posts back.

What is the issue then?

 

[Root of Jesse]

I get both flustered and confused when reading in a marion thread. Not about the level of devotion I have but the mindset of those who protest it. I find it akin to someone telling me I love my child too much. Or mom or even the wife. I mean by what grace do we think we have a right to tell someone they love someone too much. Love is not worship. Love is the image we are made in. We do not worship an image but God who is love.
I also do not worship what was done on the Cross but rather He who did it for the love of the world. But I highly revere what was done on the cross and have made it my life to share that Good News. I'm quite aware that many who hear me and do not know Christ, assume I worship the Cross. What they don't know is that when I view a cross, it's not the cross I see. I see love. When I view an Icon of Mary, I see Christ. When I view an icon of a Saint, I see everlasting life and my goal to see the Father.
Odd no one ever tells me that I love Mary too much straight out. But But that seems to be the meaning they're alluding too.

You've said this nearly perfectly. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Rev Randy]

What is the issue then?

I asked that a ways back also. I suppose some just don't cotton to these things. In truth I think many simply don't understand or have a preconceived notion that something being done that actually isn't being done.
Many equate prayer with worship. That much I've figured out. I wonder why, I pray thee?

 

[Root of Jesse]

C'mon Rev Randy. SURELY you can appreciate that good intentions do not justify a wrongful act. Here we are discussing how much or to what level it is appropriate to take one's veneration. It does a disservice to the discussion to make out that it's an either-or proposition. Besides, you already acknowledged my point when you said that making Mary equal to God or higher than God would be "moronic." We all agree to that, so all we have to do now is decide what actions or devotions are Godly and which are not.

So then you see that we DON'T worship Mary. Since you know it, and acknowledge it, then all that's left is to criticize how much we love God's mother.

 

[Defensor Christi]

I asked that a ways back also. I suppose some just don't cotton to these things. In truth I think many simply don't understand or have a preconceived notion that something being done that actually isn't being done.
Many equate prayer with worship. That much I've figured out. I wonder why, I pray thee?

I dunno...pray tell?

 

[Root of Jesse]

That's an assumption. That's all I'm saying. If you're going to say that without any proof than that means you're assuming it to be true.

It's not an assumption. It's what's written in the passage. "Blessed are you among women" means she's the most blessed of women. Eve, being the first woman, was among those who Mary is more blessed then, and she was born sinless. Since Mary is most blessed, she was born that way, too. It follows logically.

Also the Title "Full of Grace" given by Gabriel regarded past, present and future.

More assumptions. You have no proof she was created sinless. And I'd find it hard to believe you have any actual proof of how Mary lived. If Mary ever told her parents no as a toddler, or told a lie when she was two after someone asked her "Did you do that?", she sinned. You have no way of proving such things never happened. You simply don't.

I provided our proof of her sinlessness...Regarding her life, every bit of her life we see, she's obeying God. Regarding her childhood, we have evidence that, when she was old enough to leave home, she lived in the temple in Jerusalem. If she was two and told a lie, in our system, she wasn't culpable for sin. Besides which, the grammar used by the Angel Gabriel is that she was blessed in the past, in the present, and in the future. That's our proof.

And submitting to God's will is the goal of every Christian.



I digress. The "more than human" statement was in bad taste. However I still have issues with the idea that she's able to give blessings, grace, and protection. I think the only thing I haven't heard someone say is that she's able to forgive sins.

Mary isn't able to give blessings, grace, or protection. We ask her intercession. It's God and Jesus that provide.

 

[Rev Randy]

Mary isn't able to give blessings, grace, or protection. We ask her intercession. It's God and Jesus that provide.

And therein crumbles the Quadrinity part.

 

[Albion]

Oh I know good is intended and it's not done out of hate. Just explaining how it's received.

You're talking about something else now. I was referring to the fact that the people who cross the line with their Marian devotions think that what they are doing is good and proper. I am saying that, despite those well-intended motives, the actions still can be improper. Therefore, we have to discuss the devotions themselves and not confuse that with the good intentions of the people doing them.

How much veneration is too much?

It's not a matter of "How much?" but of "What kind?"

Loving those who are no longer here on earth with us shouldn't be that foreign a concept even to the non-believer.

I'm sure it is not. The issue, again, is strictly a matter of WHAT is done by them.

Let's discuss the devotionals, not the people doing them.

 

[Albion]

And therein crumbles the Quadrinity part.

Of course, no one we know thinks that Mary is a part of the Trinity. At the same time, the REAL abuses that you asked me to identify for you--and I did--have brought no comment from you. How come?

And, BTW, the statement that you are replying to from Root of Jesse is incorrect. Absolutely, the Roman Catholic Church believes and teaches that Mary is the dispenser of those graces or favors. Naturally, it is also said, as a safeguard, that God alone makes the final approval, but it is still taught that she can guarantee her "intercession" being successful. That's more than just interceding.

 

[Defensor Christi]

Let's discuss the devotionals, not the people doing them.

Which one's are too much then? Please provide examples of the one's that you feel cross some kind of line...and explain where/how they do so...