Something About Mary

[Root of Jesse]

Hmm. I'm gonna have to disagree.

This is the same argument used about how people dress so casually today. The old timers remember when everyone wore suits and hats to church on Sunday, and for them it seems disrespectful when someone shows up in jeans. But to the youngster who shows up in jeans, he is dressed up. He doesn't even own a suit. He usually wears shorts.

If it is the case that 'way back then' the people of the church knew better how to show reverence, then we are seriously amiss, not only in the words that we use to address others and God, but also in the wearing of pants. We should be in robes like most of the generations before us.

Or it could just be that styles change.

And that should be no hindrance to the people of God, because our God uses the foolish things of the world to shame the wise. Our God isn't impressed with our many pretty words, or with what we're wearing or not wearing, or with whether we worship with old music or new, whether we dance or fall down.

Our God sees the heart.

Well, in the ol' days, we all had Sunday Best. We saved our best for God. It's not for us to judge whether someone is dressed 'right'. My interpretation is that I dress better than I do for work. I have clothes and shoes that I don't wear other than to Mass. Other than someone looking like they just came from the beach, I don't judge what folks wear.

I would disagree that God isn't impressed by....We give our best to God. Our best thoughts, words, actions.

Music is a personal taste. I don't particularly like having a 50-piece orchestra and choir come up out of the stage, as at FBC Atlanta. The music is grand, and the voices impressive. But that's not how I prefer to worship. An organ, and people who sound like they've practiced during the week is good enough, or just unaccompanied Gregorian Chant works for me. But that's why we have different parishes with different music. The point of music is God's people offering up their talents in thanksgiving to God.

I also know people who go to the same Mass every Sunday, know which choir will be there, which organist, etc. And then complain they don't like the music. Catholics, if you have a complaint about the liturgy in your parish-get involved. Join the choir, be a lector, etc. Don't just sit and complain...

 

[simonthezealot]

I've read nothing except your post mentioning that the Lord sinned. Do you REALLY think that is RCC theology?

Nope it's that they would rather take His position down to that level than recognize all includes Mary. disturbing to say the least.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Nope it's that they would rather take His position down to that level than recognize all includes Mary. disturbing to say the least.

No. The position is that God elevated the woman he chose to be his mother. That argument you speak of only speaks to the non-universality of "ALL".

 

[Albion]

I appreciate how you feel, but it's not the end in all probability. Repeatedly in history, hard times have made people think this had to be the time...but it wasn't. Imagine how the Dark Ages seemed after the fall of Rome or other times when violence was epidemic or, for that matter, real epidemics killed huge sections of the population as happened with the Plague. Each time what happened was that some revival movement, whether it was the friars or the Reformation, or some other, gave Christianity a new vitality. I think that's where we're headed. The problem is that, although we can see the decline, we can't imagine what form the recovery will take.

Yea. It really says something about end times. I'm not well-versed in eschatology, but it just seems like things are getting less God-oriented and more everyone else oriented as time goes by.

I encounter attitudes from Christians I know in my life that amaze me. This girl at my church called me one day and said she had gotten in a fight with her boyfriend and "needed time to herself" so she wouldn't be at church. The sheer backwardness of that statement shocked me to silence for a second. I ended up running to her house and getting her lol and I told her, "You NEED to be here. There is something that God has JUST for you, you'll be glad you came." And she was, praise God. But it is a great example of how high He is on the average Christian's priority list. I want to worship Him, all day.

I think we could end all Sabbath debates, even, if we would realize that He wants it from us 24/7, not one day of the week.

I think non-Catholics would have a bit more respect for Catholics if they would just realize that Catholics DO have an honest, unselfish desire to serve Christ. And vice versa.

Mary is special. To those who pay homage to her memory, she deserves a special honor, IMO. Because at the end of the day, she CHOSE to obey. She could have walked away the day Gabriel came a'knocking. She bore our LORD! I pray He uses me one day in a way tantamount to the way He used her. It would be an honor.

 

[Rev Randy]

Nope it's that they would rather take His position down to that level than recognize all includes Mary. disturbing to say the least.

Unless I'm mistaken, those who hold Mary in very high esteem have taken their cue from an Archangel who took his from God.

 

[motherprayer]

Unless I'm mistaken, those who hold Mary in very high esteem have taken their cue from an Archangel who took his from God.

SAAAAWOOOOOOOSH! 3-POINTER! WHOOOT!

 

[Albion]

Unless I'm mistaken, those who hold Mary in very high esteem have taken their cue from an Archangel who took his from God.

No doubt those who think she's the fourth person of the divine Quadrinity can say that, too.

"Taken their cue from" isn't much of a justification, if you stop to think about it for a moment.

 

[simonthezealot]

Unless I'm mistaken, those who hold Mary in very high esteem have taken their cue from an Archangel who took his from God.

And those who choose not to attach a nearly deistic identity to Mary take their cue from from our Lord...

I am the LORD; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols.

 

[simonthezealot]

16 “As for you, do not pray for this people, or lift up a cry or prayer for them, and do not intercede with me, for I will not hear you. 17 Do you not see what they are doing in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18 The children gather wood, the fathers kindle fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven. And they pour out drink offerings to other gods, to provoke me to anger. 19 Is it I whom they provoke? declares the Lord. Is it not themselves, to their own shame? 20 Therefore thus says the Lord God: Behold, my anger and my wrath will be poured out on this place, upon man and beast, upon the trees of the field and the fruit of the ground; it will burn and not be quenched.”

 

[Rev Randy]

No doubt those who think she's the fourth person of the divine Quadrinity can say that, too.

"Taken their cue from" isn't much of a justification, if you stop to think about it for a moment.

Quadrinity? As the que originally came from God and the prayers from those filled with the Holy Spirit, I'd say it's complete justification. Holding Mary up higher than God would simply be moronic. Regarding her as just some woman that God chose willy-nilly is equally as moronic. The high regard she is held in is a high regard for Christ. It was not the Catholic Church who first proclaimed her as blessed.

 

[Stryder06]

None of Jesus' parables had any fiction in them. This one is even more real because someone in the parable has a name.

Revelation shows us that the saints in heaven are not dead. Our bodies die, but our souls live on, whether in heaven or hell.

All of the parables were fiction. That's what parables are, stories. Stories that help convey an idea or a truth, in such a way that it is easily understood by some, and yet utterly confusing to others.

 

[Rev Randy]

And those who choose not to attach a nearly deistic identity to Mary take their cue from from our Lord...

I am the LORD; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols.

Firstly, she is not a carved idol. She is the Mother of the Lord. Secondly, I suppose you'll also have to get on the Holy Spirit as one filled with him proclaimed her as blessed and spoke the title Mother of my Lord. Then said mother filled with christ himself said all generations would call her blessed.
You can put her away till christmas if you choose. I choose otherwise. Not just another woman but the very woman Chosen by God out of all the women in the world. Yes, there is something about Mary. God prepared her for this. God created her for this. Not ordinary by any stretch of the imagination. A virgin who not only gave birth but gave birth to God in the person of Jesus Christ.

 

[Albion]

Quadrinity? As the que originally came from God and the prayers from those filled with the Holy Spirit, I'd say it's complete justification.

Not in the least. By that strange logic almost anything you would want to say about Mary could be justified on the basis that there was a "cue." If you have to rely upon calling something a "cue," it means that you can't say it was explicit, definitive, certain, or clear.

Holding Mary up higher than God would simply be moronic.

I suppose, but no one has suggested that, so I don't know why you're mentioning it.

Regarding her as just some woman that God chose willy-nilly is equally as moronic.

I'd agree. Again, what is the relevance of that statement? You now have called "moronic" two positions so extreme that no one holds them. Is that supposed to make correct the notion you support by some sort of process of elimination?

The high regard she is held in is a high regard for Christ.

Good one. Keep saying that. It's not true, of course, but it sure sounds right at first glance.

NOW, let's try to be serious. The angel announced what to Mary? Let's see--that she had been selected by God to be the mother of Jesus. That she was in favor with him.

For that, she deserves honor and commemoration. It is not a justification for all the other myths and pious legends that later grew up around her, even if we say that that experience of the angel appearing to her gave the promoters of their legends a "cue" or Biblical starting point that they then could run with--embellished, enlarged, and turned into all manner of improper dogma, much of which does indeed make her a demi-god, if the truth were admitted.

 

[Rev Randy]

Albion,
I agree that no one sane holds those positions I called moronic. But reading this thread it seems some think many do. Phrases like "taking glory from God, a quadrinity, and Mary worship would tend to make most readers think Mary has been made equal to God by many. It's not only untrue but forbidden by Rome and the EO.

 

[Albion]

Albion,
I agree that no one sane holds those positions I called moronic. But reading this thread it seems some think many do.

I see no evidence of that, but go ahead...

Phrases like "taking glory from God, a quadrinity, and Mary worship would tend to make most readers think Mary has been made equal to God by many.

You didn't say "equal to God." What you said was "Holding Mary up higher than God would simply be moronic."

That aside, I hope you can appreciate that not just anything that can be imagined about Mary that makes her more and more special can be honestly attributed to the words spoken by the angel at the Annunciation. Honor, respect, sure. Most of the rest, no.

 

[simonthezealot]

Firstly, she is not a carved idol. She is the Mother of the Lord. Secondly, I suppose you'll also have to get on the Holy Spirit as one filled with him proclaimed her as blessed and spoke the title Mother of my Lord. Then said mother filled with christ himself said all generations would call her blessed.
You can put her away till christmas if you choose. I choose otherwise. Not just another woman but the very woman Chosen by God out of all the women in the world. Yes, there is something about Mary. God prepared her for this. God created her for this. Not ordinary by any stretch of the imagination. A virgin who not only gave birth but gave birth to God in the person of Jesus Christ.

No doubt she was blessed, no reason to attach the nearly deistic identity to her which your church has... She'd be offended surely if she knew how your church has built shrines to her and has blessed pilgrimages to her and made feast days for her...

 

[sunlover1]

Firstly, she is not a carved idol. She is the Mother of the Lord. Secondly, I suppose you'll also have to get on the Holy Spirit as one filled with him proclaimed her as blessed and spoke the title Mother of my Lord. Then said mother filled with christ himself said all generations would call her blessed.
You can put her away till christmas if you choose. I choose otherwise. Not just another woman but the very woman Chosen by God out of all the women in the world. Yes, there is something about Mary. God prepared her for this. God created her for this. Not ordinary by any stretch of the imagination. A virgin who not only gave birth but gave birth to God in the person of Jesus Christ.

I think it's easy to become confused about what's pleasing to God and
what isn't.
My ex worshiped the ground I walked on.
It was like I was an angel from heaven or something.
It made me extremely uncomfortable, and in fact, I
worried for him so much over it.
Certainly, I now know better and realize he was loving
me like Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her.
I'm still uncomfortable with that kind of devotion.

 

[motherprayer]

I think it's easy to become confused about what's pleasing to God and
what isn't.
My ex worshiped the ground I walked on.
It was like I was an angel from heaven or something.
It made me extremely uncomfortable, and in fact, I
worried for him so much over it.
Certainly, I now know better and realize he was loving
me like Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her.
I'm still uncomfortable with that kind of devotion.

Me too. I think a bit of discomfort is good in those situations. It keeps us humble

 

[sunlover1]

Me too. I think a bit of discomfort is good in those situations. It keeps us humble

So you know what that's like too!

I have a GF who does that too.
And yes, it would be easy to get into
that Mac Davis "Oh Lord, it's hard to
be humble, when you're perfect in
every way" mentality


(Although there are some who say that
they're perfect .. not me! lol)

 

[sunlover1]

Maybe that's that kind of love and reverence that the OP was speaking of,
that we should have for the brethren...
And it's just so foreign anymore that when we see it it's uncomfortable?