Something About Mary

[squint]

You made reference to loving the living as opposed to the dead...I was just curious as to when we were ever dead in Christ?

Paul was rather clear on this matter as previously noted. There are other scriptures that speak the same thing.

We can all say 'we love God in Christ' or 'Mary' or whoever, but if we can't love our neighbors whom we see I might find the other claims semi-irrelevant.

s

 

[seeingeyes]

let me change something and see what you think:

Yes, Jesus didn't glorify Himself. He was too busy pointing out the Father, the Father, the Father. Those He lifted up, he lifted because they did the will of the Father. Mary was no exception to that (clearly), so the question is: in light of this passage, should we revere the saints (here and elsewhere) less than Mary?

 

[seeingeyes]

I'm all for reverence and memorialization. Name churches after them. Have them on the church calendar. It's the devotionals that often cross the line, and I don't at all accept the commonly-made arguments that "anything goes" in that department because we are to reverence them OR that "the communion of saints" means that spiritism or necromancy or the worship of them is covered. That is not what the term means. So, you asked, and that's my view.

But I asked about the saints you sit with. Would you put Joe Schmoe from the third row who does the will of God on the church calendar?

 

[Albion]

Of course I know the difference...which is why I brought it up...


me·di·ate
/ˈmēdēˌāt/



Verb

• Intervene in a dispute to bring about an agreement or reconciliation.
• Intervene in (a dispute) to bring about an agreement.

We are able to intercede/mediate for other's here on earth (as the Church Triumphant) but those who have departed the mortal plane to dwell with the Lord in Heaven are even better equipped to do so...as they are without sin...

But we can't reach them and shouldn't try, even if they were capable of interceding on our behalf, and no one knows that they can do that.

You said you cant....now why is that? Now what do you suppose prayer is...

It's a petition. If you pray to a saint, it's a request for intercession. Some people think they can mediate as well as intercede, but only Christ is our mediator.

 

[seeingeyes]

We can all say 'we love God in Christ' or 'Mary' or whoever, but if we can't love our neighbors whom we see I might find the other claims semi-irrelevant.

s

I agree that if we don't show love to those in front of us, no patron saint will be of help to us. Any more than Abraham was of help to the Pharisees.

I think our 'Apostolic' brethren would agree, though I don't know the official teachings on that.

 

[squint]

I agree that if we don't show love to those in front of us, no patron saint will be of help to us. Any more than Abraham was of help to the Pharisees.

I think our 'Apostolic' brethren would agree, though I don't know the official teachings on that.

It's officially out in print to eliminate guesswork:

1 John 4:20
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

+

 

[Ignatius21]

Do you, personally, feel that you hold those who show up and sit in the pews with the same reverence as those who have 'gotten off the floor'?

In a sense, yes.

To be really accurate about it, we are not revering the saint, but rather we are revering Christ in the saint.

Christ is more fully "realized" in those who have "gotten off the floor" than in those of us who are here, but it is the same Christ who is venerated.

I think we may be on to something here with the Holy Fist Bump.

 

[Ignatius21]

But we can't reach them and shouldn't try, even if they were capable of interceding on our behalf, and no one knows that they can do that.

I mean no offense, but you seem to be simply asserting this. It's easy enough to say "we can't reach them," and "no one knows that they can do that." But it was the practice of the Christians from as early as we have records, and even where it isn't 100% clear just and when and why they sought the intercession of the saints (initially, martyrs), we have no record of anyone ever opposing the practice.

The testimony of the historic church says we can reach them, and should. To borrow from St. Yoda, "for us, there is no try."

 

[nestoj]

But here's what I would like to look at: When one dear woman shouted out to Jesus, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!” His response was unexpected.

He said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”



And another time, when Jesus' mother and brothers came looking for him, Jesus said, "“Who are my mother and my brothers?” And looking about at those who sat around him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.”"

Yes, He did say that. And we, from that same Bible know that Mary heard a word of God and kept it, and that Mary did the will of God.

Luke 1:38: Then Mary said, “Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.

Now Jesus was not denigrating Mary here, but rather pointing out his Father (as always) and lifting up the saints to Him. Even to the status of his mother.

The trouble I have (currently) with the idea of (me, personally) praying the rosary or kissing icons in reverence, is not that this is 'worship' or 'idolatry'. The trouble is that I do not treat any of the physically living saints with this particular 'type' of reverence.

I do not greet my brothers and sisters with a "Holy kiss". Ever. Though I love them very dearly.

We do. Not everybody we meet, but many. Monks, dear ones in the church, those we respect...Now come to think of it, meeting in my parish actually involves lot of kissing.

I would not serenade my mother with, "My Queen, My Mother, I offer myself entirely to thee. And to show my devotion to thee, I offer thee this day, my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve." Even though I love and admire her unreservedly. (And even if I did, I think she wouldn't to able to hear the end of my devoted speech over the racket of her own laughter.)

I do. No serenades, that's true, but that's how I feel about her. She knows I'd rather brake my arm than see a tear in her eye. She's the one that gave birth to me. I'm the blood of her blood, and I'd always substitute mine for hears.

This leads me to believe that we have a culture clash on our hands, where flowery reverence to the physically dead saints became enshrined in tradition, while flowery reverence for the physically living saints went out of style with hats.

Thoughts?

Looks like it. Except, in my case at least, the hats are still in fashion. I feel like a dinosaur.

 

[Defensor Christi]

Paul was rather clear on this matter as previously noted. There are other scriptures that speak the same thing.

We can all say 'we love God in Christ' or 'Mary' or whoever, but if we can't love our neighbors whom we see I might find the other claims semi-irrelevant.

s

I would never suggest that we shouldnt love our neighbors...

 

[squint]

I would never suggest that we shouldnt love our neighbors...

Well, the last time we discussed it the time spent to draw that out was whisked away in censorship, so discussing it factually is kind of a waste of time in this forum.

 

[seeingeyes]

In a sense, yes.

To be really accurate about it, we are not revering the saint, but rather we are revering Christ in the saint.

Christ is more fully "realized" in those who have "gotten off the floor" than in those of us who are here, but it is the same Christ who is venerated.

I think we may be on to something here with the Holy Fist Bump.

The Holy Handshake might be more respectable. Spring-loaded mannequin arms could be mounted to the icons.

 

[Defensor Christi]

But we can't reach them and shouldn't try, even if they were capable of interceding on our behalf, and no one knows that they can do that.

Hmmmmm...Scripture seems to disagree...

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. (Rev 6:9-11)

3 Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand (Rev 8:3-4)

It's a petition. If you pray to a saint, it's a request for intercession. Some people think they can mediate as well as intercede, but only Christ is our mediator.

Main Entry: mediate  [v. mee-dee-eyt; adj. mee-dee-it]

Part of Speech: verb

Definition: try to bring to an agreement

Synonyms: act as middle, arbitrate, bring to terms, conciliate, deal, go fifty-fifty, intercede, interfere, intermediate, interpose, intervene, make a deal, make peace, meet halfway, moderate, negotiate, propitiate, reconcile, referee, resolve, restore harmony, settle, step in, strike happy medium, trade off, umpire

Antonyms: argue, contend, disagree, fight

 

[Defensor Christi]

Well, the last time we discussed it the time spent to draw that out was whisked away in censorship, so discussing it factually is kind of a waste of time in this forum.

I'm not tracking sir...

 

[Albion]

Hmmmmm...Scripture seems to disagree...

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. (Rev 6:9-11)

3 Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand (Rev 8:3-4)

Point out for us the part where these angels and spirits hear a petition from someone living in the flesh and act upon it.

Oh, that's right. It's not there.

 

[seeingeyes]

Just a reminder. This thread is about the reverence that should be shown to the saints who are still breathing.

If you guys want to throw dictionaries at each other, there are plenty of other places for that.

 

[squint]

I'm not tracking sir...

I luv set up statements like that but will pass in the interests of the topic matter.

 

[Defensor Christi]

Point out for us the part where these angels and spirits hear a petition from someone living in the flesh and act upon it.

Oh, that's right. It's not there.

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

Seems pretty clear to me that the Saints in Heaven are fully aware of the plight of men on earth...even more clear is that those in Heaven do in fact pray for us on earth....

 

[Albion]

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

Seems pretty clear to me that the Saints in Heaven are fully aware of the plight of men on earth...even more clear is that those in Heaven do in fact pray for us on earth....

You really don't follow very well, do you? I said:

Point out for us the part where these angels and spirits hear a petition from someone living in the flesh and act upon it.

What you have quoted there says nothing about them receiving a prayer from mortals and taking it to God. And you don't claim that either, saying only that they KNOW about us and pray for us--completely different ideas from what we were discussing.

 

[Albion]

I mean no offense, but you seem to be simply asserting this.

Rest easy. I am not doing that.

It's easy enough to say "we can't reach them," and "no one knows that they can do that." But it was the practice of the Christians from as early as we have records, and even where it isn't 100% clear just and when and why they sought the intercession of the saints (initially, martyrs), we have no record of anyone ever opposing the practice.

Mistakes don't get to be truth merely because they have been around a long time.

The testimony of the historic church says we can reach them, and should. To borrow from St. Yoda, "for us, there is no try."

Give me the testimony of Scripture and we'll talk.