Something About Mary

[Sword of the Lord]

Maybe I'm looking at this wrong, but the answer, to me at least, to your questions surrounding Jesus' words, "Blessed, rather, are those that hear the word of God and keep it", is found in the first chapter of Luke. The angel Gabriel was sent to Zechariah on God's behalf, to speak to him, again on God's behalf, and to bring him good news. Zechariah questioned God's news that his wife, Elizabeth, would bear a son. He heard God's word, but doubted it. For that, he was struck silent and unable to speak until after the birth of John.

The angel Gabriel was again sent on God's behalf, to speak God's words, but this time to Mary. Mary heard God's words through the angel Gabriel and did not doubt them. She had great faith in God to believe that she, a virgin, would conceive. "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word." Mary, full of grace, the Lord being with her, by hearing the word of God and believing, will be called blessed gerneration and generation.

 

[Cappadocious]

May I ask, do you personally feel revered as the saints before you?

I can't point to any deficiency in the reverence shown to me, traveling through this age, in the Church.

(Not that one should seek out reverence, but I'm asking if the culture of reverence in the church differentiates between those here now and those passed on.)

Yes and no. Both are kissed, censed, asked for intercession, and many other things. There is also different sort of attention shown to those who have "finished the race" for a couple reasons.

1. Through Christ they have accomplished things that are of note, written or taught something of note, or were involved in a particular wonder of some sort (like being martyred). So when we speak of those people, that speech involves the things they were involved in, summing up the totality of a life. To speak of these things and honor these things is to glorify God, through whom they were done. And, of course, many saints have been known for centuries and so more has been said about them than a person who has been around for a few decades.

2. They are with Christ at the End of the Ages. So they relate to this age, and to us, in a different way. An icon is meant to demonstrate their presence in that reality, glorified and in the reign of God. So it wouldn't really be appropriate to paint an icon of someone "living" with their soulish body (the sort of body we have now).

 

[seeingeyes]

I agree, and I momentarily made a mistake about what you were saying. Please take a look at my edited post.

Yes, I see what you are saying. The trouble is that it does no good to fight against strawmen.

If I were to denounce a caricature of some doctrine you hold, I would be a fool, even if the doctrine you held was wrong. So why shouldn't I slay the strawmen in my own head before I make an ass of myself?

This is hardly akin to 'immediately canceling everything learned before'. It more like "listen before you speak".

At any rate, this thread is not here for the purpose of denouncing anything. Did you have an opinion on the level of reverence we should show the saints we sit with?

 

[Sword of the Lord]

Maybe I'm looking at this wrong, but the answer, to me at least, to your questions surrounding Jesus' words, "Blessed, rather, are those that hear the word of God and keep it", is found in the first chapter of Luke. The angel Gabriel was sent to Zechariah on God's behalf, to speak to him, again on God's behalf, and to bring him good news. Zechariah questioned God's news that his wife, Elizabeth, would bear a son. He heard God's word, but doubted it. For that, he was struck silent and unable to speak until after the birth of John.

The angel Gabriel was again sent on God's behalf, to speak God's words, but this time to Mary. Mary heard God's words through the angel Gabriel and did not doubt them. She had great faith in God to believe that she, a virgin, would conceive. "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word." Mary, full of grace, the Lord being with her, by hearing the word of God and believing, will be called blessed gerneration and generation.

So, basically, Mary is blessed not simply because she bore Jesus and gave him suck, but because she heard the word of God and believed it.

 

[seeingeyes]

I can't point to any deficiency in the reverence shown to me, traveling through this age, in the Church.


Yes and no. Both are kissed, censed, asked for intercession, and many other things. There is also different sort of attention shown to those who have "finished the race" for a couple reasons.

1. Through Christ they have accomplished things that are of note, written or taught something of note, or were involved in a particular wonder of some sort (like being martyred). So when we speak of those people, that speech involves the things they were involved in, summing up the totality of a life. To speak of these things and honor these things is to glorify God, through whom they were done. And, of course, many saints have been known for centuries and so more has been said about them than a person who has been around for a few decades.

2. They are with Christ at the End of the Ages. So they relate to this age, and to us, in a different way. An icon is meant to demonstrate their presence in that reality, glorified and in the reign of God. So it wouldn't really be appropriate to paint an icon of someone "living" with their soulish body (the sort of body we have now).

Thanks for this summary.

 

[seeingeyes]

Maybe I'm looking at this wrong, but the answer, to me at least, to your questions surrounding Jesus' words, "Blessed, rather, are those that hear the word of God and keep it", is found in the first chapter of Luke. The angel Gabriel was sent to Zechariah on God's behalf, to speak to him, again on God's behalf, and to bring him good news. Zechariah questioned God's news that his wife, Elizabeth, would bear a son. He heard God's word, but doubted it. For that, he was struck silent and unable to speak until after the birth of John.

The angel Gabriel was again sent on God's behalf, to speak God's words, but this time to Mary. Mary heard God's words through the angel Gabriel and did not doubt them. She had great faith in God to believe that she, a virgin, would conceive. "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word." Mary, full of grace, the Lord being with her, by hearing the word of God and believing, will be called blessed gerneration and generation.

So, basically, Mary is blessed not simply because she bore Jesus and gave him suck, but because she heard the word of God and believed it.

Indeed she did.

And the passage in Luke doesn't go beyond that.

But the passage in Matthew (end of chapter 12) went a bit further. While it would include Mary, it wouldn't be solely limited to her (as Jesus pointed to his disciples while speaking). If Jesus' intention had been to raise Mary up as foremost among the saints, he probably would have said, "Well, send her on up!" and made everyone else get out of the way.

So the Matthew passage would seem to either be slighting Mary (not a reasonable interpretation given the rest of Scripture), or equating the saints with Mary.

 

[Cappadocious]

If Jesus' intention had been to raise Mary up as foremost among the saints, he probably would have said, "Well, send her on up!" and made everyone else get out of the way.

let me change something and see what you think:

If Jesus' intention had been to raise Himself up as foremost among the saints, he probably would have said, "Well, serve me!" and made everyone else get out of the way.

 

[Defensor Christi]

If I failed to say that it is more important to LOVE THE LIVING, then my bad.

s

Remind me...when are we ever DEAD in Christ?

 

[Albion]

This is hardly akin to 'immediately canceling everything learned before'. It more like "listen before you speak".

Hmm. All that I meant there is that the first you hear of the other side of an argument it has a tendency to seem convincing. For many people that translates as "I was sold a bill of goods before."

At any rate, this thread is not here for the purpose of denouncing anything. Did you have an opinion on the level of reverence we should show the saints we sit with?

I'm all for reverence and memorialization. Name churches after them. Have them on the church calendar. It's the devotionals that often cross the line, and I don't at all accept the commonly-made arguments that "anything goes" in that department because we are to reverence them OR that "the communion of saints" means that spiritism or necromancy or the worship of them is covered. That is not what the term means. So, you asked, and that's my view.

 

[squint]

Remind me...when are we ever DEAD in Christ?

Colossians 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

 

[Cappadocious]

Remind me...when are we ever DEAD in Christ?

Before the haters get here:

To be dead in Christ is to be dead to this age and alive to God.

 

[Defensor Christi]

So, basically, you were initially tempted to believe whatever you were told in defense of questionable doctrines and practices. In time, we see that we have a biased POV to work from at first; then when you hear from the other side, it immediately seems to cancel out everything learned before. It's new, after all, and a specific rejoinder. Only in time do we realize, and usually slowly, that neither extreme is entirely right or entirely wrong. That's the way learning works, whether it's history, political theory, or....this.

Correct me...dont Anglican pray rosaries? Dont they have the same statues of the Virgin as Catholics?

 

[Defensor Christi]

Before the haters get here:

To be dead in Christ is to be dead to this age and alive to God.

So....never?

 

[Defensor Christi]

Colossians 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

So...never?

 

[squint]

So...never?

What is it you are attempting to get at?

 

[Albion]

Correct me...dont Anglican pray rosaries?

Generally not.

Dont they have the same statues of the Virgin as Catholics?

Didn't I already say that I have nothing against memorials, etc. And cretainly not against art.

It's the worship of the saints and praying to them and considering them mediators with the Father, etc. that I and our statement of faith oppose.

 

[Defensor Christi]

Generally not.


Didn't I already say that I have nothing against memorials, etc. And cretainly not against art.

It's the worship of the saints and praying to them and considering them mediators with the Father, etc. that I and our statement of faith oppose.

Worship? I agree...no worship of Mary or the Saints...

Mediation? Do you pray for people? On their behalf? Do you interceed or mediate between them and God on their behalf?

Curiously, I found this link:

Introduction

Thoughts?

 

[Defensor Christi]

If I failed to say that it is more important to LOVE THE LIVING, then my bad.

s

What is it you are attempting to get at?

You made reference to loving the living as opposed to the dead...I was just curious as to when we were ever dead in Christ?

 

[Albion]

Worship? I agree...no worship of Mary or the Saints...

Mediation? Do you pray for people? On their behalf? Do you interceed or mediate between them and God on their behalf?

I certainly am not able to mediate with the Father on their behalf, nor are you. I'm not a spirit and do not have a leg up on everyone else because I'm supposed to be hanging around the throne of Grace all the time. Surely you know the difference between the Church Militant and the Church Triumphant.

 

[Defensor Christi]

I certainly am not able to mediate with the Father on their behalf, nor are you. I'm not a spirit and do not have a leg up on everyone else because I'm supposed to be hanging around the throne of Grace all the time. Surely you know the difference between the Church Militant and the Church Triumphant.

Of course I know the difference...which is why I brought it up...


me·di·ate
/ˈmēdēˌāt/

Verb

• Intervene in a dispute to bring about an agreement or reconciliation.
• Intervene in (a dispute) to bring about an agreement.

We are able to intercede/mediate for other's here on earth (as the Church Triumphant) but those who have departed the mortal plane to dwell with the Lord in Heaven are even better equipped to do so...as they are without sin...

You said you cant....now why is that? Now what do you suppose prayer is...