Something About Mary

Fireinfolding · May 2, 2013

simonthezealot said:
Rahab lied...Doesn't make it right, just think of the potentially magnificent ways God may have worked if she would have walked in His righteousness instead of lying.

I'd lie too to save your rearend if you were a messenger of God, otherwise I would be a betrayer the messengers of God. Obdiah hid the messengers of God too.

I could tell the truth like Judas and dime you out (as to where you were). He is (afterall) called a traiter. Its in the context of spies and messengers of the Almighty God.

Who lowered Paul in a basket away from the garrison seeking his life? I betcha they werent telling that garrison which way Paul (who was the messenger of Christ) went either.

sunlover1 · May 2, 2013

Fireinfolding said:
Paul was instructed to be both

Phil 4:12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.

Phil 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Shows you can do both through Christ, besides, it also provides an opportunity to do unto the least of these my brethren. He did say, when saw we thee hungry (and in various kinds of needs) and he said when you have done it unto the least of these brethren of mine ye did it unto me. And he that sanctifies and them which are sanctified are they which he is not ashamed to call his brethren. Then looking at what Paul was instructed in (to both abound and to suffer need) he could do this through Christ, but it did provide an opportunity to those who could see (after the flesh) a present need his were in where others could minister them.

Right.
We don't need to worry about what we have.
God ALWAYS provides for us.
It's an attitude of rest imo

sunlover1 · May 2, 2013

Fireinfolding said:
I'd lie too to say your rearend if you were a messenger of God, otherwise I would be a betrayer the messengers of God. Obdiah hid the messengers of God too.

I could tell the truth like Judas and dime you out (as to where you were). He is (afterall) called a traiter. Its in the context of spies and messengers of the Almighty God.

Who lowered Paul in a basket away from the garrison seeking his life? I betcha they werent telling that garrison which way Paul (who was the messenger of Christ) went either.

And Jesus did often 'slip away'

Stryder06 · May 2, 2013

Root of Jesse said:
There are lots of things I do that apply differently in different situations. Some people bow to other people when they meet. Does that mean they worship those people? I don't think so. I do not bow to Mary, and I don't bow to saints.

Never could quite understand why we would look to what others do to justify our own actions. Whether they are worshiping them or not is irrelevant. The point is that the action itself is inappropriate.

I do kneel in prayer before a statue of a saint or Mary, and ask that person, not the statue, to present my prayers to God.

Well that's another subject ya know.

Well, that's an instruction on how to worship Nebuchadnezzar's golden image. It's not an instruction of Christian worship.

The fact is that bowing is linked to worship. That's the point.

It does not say he bowed, or knelt, or anything else. He just worshipped Him.

Right. What was I thinking that the demon possessed man would have bowed down. So what do you think he was doing, standing there jumping up and down glorifying the name of Jesus and proclaiming Him King of Kings and Lord of Lords, before asking Him not to torture Him?

I'd say that Nebuchadnezzar directed people to worship the idol. Whether they did or not, who knows? We know that Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego didn't. At that time, and in that place, falling on the ground was considered worship. It's unclear how the man with an unclean spirit worshipped Jesus.

At that time and place because that's how it had always been. Bowing down was linked with worship. Even

I don't think anyone believes that worship requires bowing. Certainly, worship can be done by bowing-it's an outward sign. But bowing is one way to worship. Not the only way, and bowing is not always worship.
Question is, what does "fell down at his feet" mean? I'd believe it was sort of a full-length prostration, with the worshipper's head at the feet of the worshippee. Our priests do that when they're consecrated to God.

What matters is what's in your heart. Some people worship God by dancing. Some people worship God by singing. Some by kneeling in prayer. Some by how they live their entire lives. The point is that dancing isn't always worship, singing isn't always worship, kneeling isn't always worship. Even going to Church isn't always worship. So why is bowing always worship???

Here's a better question for you, how often in the scripture do we see worship linked with dancing or singing in comparrison to bowing or falling prostrate?

Fireinfolding · May 2, 2013

sunlover1 said:
And Jesus did often 'slip away'

Yeah, so did Rahabs messengers, so did the prophets of the Lord under the care of Obadiah, and so did Paul under whoever it was lowering him down in a basket.

Then ofcourse there is brother betraying innocent brother unto death too. I dont want to be guilty of handing over the Lords messengers to their deaths and be a Judas, I would far rather do as Rahab was commended for in both receiving the messengers of God and sending the other out in another direction. Rahab was commended although she could be seen as a betrayer to her country (not a betrayer of Gods messengers). Whereas through Judas our Lord was delivered up (Christ knowing who it was who would "betray him"). Its more under an act of a betrayal (traitor) thing then a lying thing, where ones loyalties lie and if it worked for the benfit of both the messengers of God and to Rahab's testimony (positively so) why not I'd say? She was not condemned, Judas on the otherhand was.

Root of Jesse · May 2, 2013

Stryder06 said:
Never could quite understand why we would look to what others do to justify our own actions. Whether they are worshiping them or not is irrelevant. The point is that the action itself is inappropriate.

And you're the self-appointed judge and jury, eh?

Well that's another subject ya know.

So you want to judge that, too...

The fact is that bowing is linked to worship. That's the point.

In your mind, maybe. Just as "praying" is linked to worship, to you. But it's not necessarily worship, either.

Right. What was I thinking that the demon possessed man would have bowed down. So what do you think he was doing, standing there jumping up and down glorifying the name of Jesus and proclaiming Him King of Kings and Lord of Lords, before asking Him not to torture Him?

I don't know, it doesn't say.

At that time and place because that's how it had always been. Bowing down was linked with worship. Even

The point is, you can bow down, and not be worshipping.

Here's a better question for you, how often in the scripture do we see worship linked with dancing or singing in comparrison to bowing or falling prostrate?

David danced in worship. The Psalms are filled with singing in terms of worship. Bowing, in Biblical terms, is probably considered worship, because the Bible is a text about worship. Same with falling prostrate.
But let's bring it forward a few hundred years. Subjects of the king, any king, and even non-subjects of the king, bowed down. when approaching the king. IIRC, those under David's command even bowed to him. Were they worshipping?

Defensor Christi · May 2, 2013

sunlover1 said:
Evidently you were right, it's lack of faith and wrong focus.

Well come on down to my local homeless shelter and let those folks know will ya!!

Unlike Protestantism, I am not a fan of pulling one passage of scripture out of the bible and building an entire theology or worldview out of it...

Frankly, I find it insulting to insinuate that life's obstacles/problems/issues are due to one's lack of faith and wrong focus...

Defensor Christi · May 2, 2013

sunlover1 said:
Right.
We don't need to worry about what we have.
God ALWAYS provides for us.
It's an attitude of rest imo

Then why provide for the poor? Why feed the hungry? Why clothe the naked? Why not just tell them to pray a prayer...accept Christ and have faith?

Dont think that is what Jesus taught...

Thekla · May 2, 2013

Fireinfolding said:
Its as Sun had said, in that Jesus made them a light unto the world, yet when Paul writes his epistle he too distinguishes between what he mentions he formerly wrote saying...

1Cr 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

1Cr 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

Whereas Jesus didnt pray to take them out of the world but that they were the light of the world. Then Paul continues...

1Cr 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Yes, especially if we can't bring the light of Christ to them (but instead are not as vessels of the Holy Spirit), but 'carousing' or tacitly giving assent/consent.

seeingeyes · May 2, 2013

Defensor Christi said:
Unlike Protestantism,

Not cool. Your brush is too broad.

Root of Jesse · May 2, 2013

Thekla said:
Let me ask: for those posting here, what is the action of your body at prayer ?

Standing, kneeling, sitting, laying down. Liturgically, standing, kneeling, sitting. At home before sleeping, laying down, and while commuting to work, sitting.

Thekla · May 2, 2013

Fireinfolding said:
If I was on the floor, I would be there till my husband got home thats for sure

I've seen that with my husband, too

Though I'd think you were still kneeling in the heart even if not on the knees ...

Root of Jesse · May 2, 2013

Stryder06 said:
That's not what the text says. The text I quoted says to avoid the very apperance of evil. Christ did nothing that even remotely appeared to be actually evil/wrong. He was being accused of wrong doing by people who hated them. Their voice doesn't count.

Which is exactly what you are doing when you judge someone for kneeling in prayer before a statue.

seeingeyes · May 2, 2013

Stryder06 said:
Never could quite understand why we would look to what others do to justify our own actions. Whether they are worshiping them or not is irrelevant. The point is that the action itself is inappropriate.

Based on what?

Albion · May 2, 2013

Defensor Christi said:
Unlike Protestantism, I am not a fan of pulling one passage of scripture out of the bible and building an entire theology or worldview out of it...

Do you think we all just fell off the turnip truck and so don't know that Matthew 16:18 is the "one passage of scripture out of the Bible" that the Roman Catholic Church has built its entire theology and worldview upon?

Thekla · May 2, 2013

sunlover1 said:
He wasn't giving the appearance of evil though.

Someone who has paranoia may think that when I look at him
a certain way I am evil.
But that doesn't make my looking that way an evil thing.
So it's not me GIVING an appearance of evil.
Jesus wasn't giving the appearance of evil and to be frank...
I really can't imagine why you'd suggest such a thing.

I'm not sure what it is I suggested

Didn't think I said Jesus was giving the appearance of evil, but that it was interpreted as having the appearance of evil to some.

Satan always tempts - and sure to see evil where there is not (gossips, busybodies ...)

Fireinfolding · May 2, 2013

Thekla said:
I've seen that with my husband, too

Though I'd think you were still kneeling in the heart even if not on the knees ...

I sympathize sis, I do, cause I'm gonna need one of those clickity thingys round my neck soon by the rate Im going. That terribly done commercial where you see a woman fallen and she cant get up.

The commercial is bad, and yeah raised a few chuckles (cant lie bout that) never thought I'd contemplate one, but the jokes on me here lol

Root of Jesse · May 2, 2013

sunlover1 said:
How so?
How am I to be light to the darkness if they're never near me?

Let's look at this closely...

Every day, I pass in front of a group of strip clubs. Sometimes, I talk to one of the girls who (apparently) works in one of the clubs.

Am I doing something wrong?

Root of Jesse · May 2, 2013

sunlover1 said:
How so?
How am I to be light to the darkness if they're never near me?

The point is that it's people's judgement of Jesus that was evil, not what he was doing. And this is the same thing as making a judgement of someone's prayer attitude.

Root of Jesse · May 2, 2013

simonthezealot said:
Sin is not absolved by circumstance...What kind of un-biblical theology is that?
Do you realize how much scripture would need to be thrown out to hold to this ridiculous view?

Where did I say it was absolved? Circumstance has everything to do with sin. If you're a political prisoner, and you're forced to fornicate, you have not sinned. A rape victim has not sinned. If someone invades my home and I use a gun and kill the person, I have not sinned.

The acts themselves may be objectively sinful-sex, and murder are sinful, objectively. But because of the situation, the individual is not sinful. In order for a sin to be committed, it has to be willful (you have to know that it's a sin, and do it anyway).

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