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Something About Mary

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Fireinfolding

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This is what Christ did, and it was interpreted as being 'evil', having the appearance of evil.

If we are spirit filled, having the 'appearance of evil' will not be as great a concern that serving/in relationship with God ...

Its as Sun had said, in that Jesus made them a light unto the world, yet when Paul writes his epistle he too distinguishes between what he mentions he formerly wrote saying...

1Cr 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

1Cr 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

Whereas Jesus didnt pray to take them out of the world but that they were the light of the world. Then Paul continues...

1Cr 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
 
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Metal Minister

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Who says it's relational?

Incorrect. They've been accused of evil because they were hated by the devil. Such an accusation does not count. Avoiding the appearance of evil is for your brother's sake. Should the heathen see you doing good but call it evil, that does not matter.

I believe the verse you're looking for is Isaiaha 5:20- Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. ;)
 
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Fireinfolding

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Thanks, FiF and Stryder !

There are many different activities of prayer in our Church -- standing, kneeing, the sign of the cross, prostrations (small and great), as well as full prostration. Bowing from the waist in reverence may seem "big", when not considering that in worship one may be making many full prostrations, head to the floor for short or long periods of time ...

If I was on the floor, I would be there till my husband got home thats for sure^_^
 
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sunlover1

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If I was on the floor, I would be there till my husband got home thats for sure^_^
Stay OFF the floor fire!
(I get on the floor less and less too but probably due to dog hair :blush:)
 
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simonthezealot

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No, actually he is correct. It is not a sin for a man to take food to feed his starving child; or rather, it is a sin which is absolved because of the circumstances.
wow that's some messed up un-biblical stuff.
"thou shalt not steal" what part of that says unless ya have to?
SMH
 
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sunlover1

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wow that's some messed up un-biblical stuff.
"thou shalt not steal" what part of that says unless ya have to?
SMH
lol
I'd never do it myself but rahab lied...
Why should we have to steal?
I've been young and now I'm old and I've YET
to see the righteous forsaken or their seed beggin bread.
God is our provider.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Fortunately I'm not doing any such thing. What I am doing is testing the spirit, as we're admonished to do in the scriptures.

You see here, the problem is that I do believe there is a misapplication of the word "worship" here. The actions are essentially the same. You bow before God. You bow before Mary. You bow before the saints (in general, not you personally). However to distinguish "worship" from "verneration/honor" your church has simply instituted a word.
There are lots of things I do that apply differently in different situations. Some people bow to other people when they meet. Does that mean they worship those people? I don't think so. I do not bow to Mary, and I don't bow to saints. I do kneel in prayer before a statue of a saint or Mary, and ask that person, not the statue, to present my prayers to God.
I personally believe that the actions done are just as important as the thoughts associated with it. Let us consider the following text for example:

That at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up:
Well, that's an instruction on how to worship Nebuchadnezzar's golden image. It's not an instruction of Christian worship.
Let's look at another verse:
And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit...But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
It does not say he bowed, or knelt, or anything else. He just worshipped Him.
Now you say that latria is what you give to God, while hyperdulia is what is given to Mary, and dulia is what is given to the Saints. Now latria is defined as the adoration that is given to God alone. If we apply that definition to both of the scenarios in the texts here, I think you'd be hard pressed to say that the Jews who fell down before the golden image were ascribing to it the adoration that belongs to God alone. You might have a case with the demon possessed man, but even there, it would be hard to say that the demons were adoring Christ.
I'd say that Nebuchadnezzar directed people to worship the idol. Whether they did or not, who knows? We know that Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego didn't. At that time, and in that place, falling on the ground was considered worship. It's unclear how the man with an unclean spirit worshipped Jesus.
What we can see is that in both instances, worship required bowing.

Looking at more examples from the scripture,
And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.

And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
I don't think anyone believes that worship requires bowing. Certainly, worship can be done by bowing-it's an outward sign. But bowing is one way to worship. Not the only way, and bowing is not always worship.
Now in each of these case I would think, again, that you'd be hard pressed to prove that Cornelius and John were offering latria to Peter and the angel. It would be most likely that they were offering what you call dulia. In either case, they were both told "Don't do that."
Question is, what does "fell down at his feet" mean? I'd believe it was sort of a full-length prostration, with the worshipper's head at the feet of the worshippee. Our priests do that when they're consecrated to God.
Point being that the intent isn't what I take exception with. The very act of bowing down seems to be tied to worship. Saying latria, dulia, or hyperdulia, doesn't matter if the action you take along with those is an inappropriate one.
What matters is what's in your heart. Some people worship God by dancing. Some people worship God by singing. Some by kneeling in prayer. Some by how they live their entire lives. The point is that dancing isn't always worship, singing isn't always worship, kneeling isn't always worship. Even going to Church isn't always worship. So why is bowing always worship???
 
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Defensor Christi

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lol
I'd never do it myself but rahab lied...
Why should we have to steal?
I've been young and now I'm old and I've YET
to see the righteous forsaken or their seed beggin bread.
God is our provider.

So are you saying that if you are poor, hungry or homeless...you just dont have enough faith?
 
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Root of Jesse

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When I said that athletes don't get half of the attention that Mary get's I was saying from Catholics. I wasn't talking about people in general.
Even so, you'd be wrong. Most Catholics would rather go to a ball game than pray, regardless of who they pray to. Most Catholics, in the US, anyway, can barely sit still for Sunday Mass.
 
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Fireinfolding

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Stay OFF the floor fire!
(I get on the floor less and less too but probably due to dog hair :blush:)

Im hearing ya sis', I got that problem myself, can get pretty bad with four of them (like tumbleweeds) if I dont keep up with it lol
 
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sunlover1

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So are you saying that if you are poor, hungry or homeless...you just dont have enough faith?

I'm saying that I can't be poor, hungry, or homeless.
immmmmmmmmmpossible
:thumbsup:
 
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simonthezealot

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lol
I'd never do it myself but rahab lied...
Why should we have to steal?
I've been young and now I'm old and I've YET
to see the righteous forsaken or their seed beggin bread.
God is our provider.
Rahab lied...Doesn't make it right, just think of the potentially magnificent ways God may have worked if she would have walked in His righteousness instead of lying.
 
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Stryder06

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Our relationship with God is central !

It always has been, from the beginning of time. That's never changed.

Satan tempts us to see evil where there is not ...

He also deceives us to see good where there's evil...

Would you deny your friend to help a woman who is weak and needs help (holding around the waist for support and stability) to get somewhere because someone might be scandalized that he is holding another woman around the waist ?

Helping someone who is weak is one thing. And if she's weak, his hand would be around her waste and her arm would likely be over his shoulder. The posture of the two would let anyone know that he would be aiding her in walking.

That is completely different from the example I provided.
 
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simonthezealot

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30But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. 33But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
 
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Stryder06

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Even so, you'd be wrong. Most Catholics would rather go to a ball game than pray, regardless of who they pray to. Most Catholics, in the US, anyway, can barely sit still for Sunday Mass.

Well considering that Sunday isn't a holy day, and that Mass is done pretty much every day of the week, can't say that I would classify such a thing as idolatry.
 
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Defensor Christi

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I'm saying that I can't be poor, hungry, or homeless.
immmmmmmmmmpossible
:thumbsup:

So I suppose all the poor, hungry, homeless folks out there are hellbound? Yikes...I will inform the President that the way to cure poverty is to become a Protestant...smh

Ever consider that sometimes people are poor, hungry and homeless because that is what and where God wants/needs them?

Name it claim it aint the way for this guy...
 
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sunlover1

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Even so, you'd be wrong. Most Catholics would rather go to a ball game than pray, regardless of who they pray to. Most Catholics, in the US, anyway, can barely sit still for Sunday Mass.
Well then it's time to jazz it up a bit :D
I have a blast at my church.
We laugh and sing and cry.
lol
Besides, you have no idea if they're praying before
during and after the ballgame.
:p
Im hearing ya sis', I got that problem myself, can get pretty bad with four of them (like tumbleweeds) if I dont keep up with it lol
tumbleweeds lol.
I do not keep up on it very well..
Much more exciting things to do.
^_^
 
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Fireinfolding

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So are you saying that if you are poor, hungry or homeless...you just dont have enough faith?

Paul was instructed to be both

Phil 4:12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.

Phil 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Shows you can do both through Christ, besides, it also provides an opportunity to do unto the least of these my brethren. He did say, when saw we thee hungry (and in various kinds of needs) and he said when you have done it unto the least of these brethren of mine ye did it unto me. And he that sanctifies and them which are sanctified are they which he is not ashamed to call his brethren. Then looking at what Paul was instructed in (to both abound and to suffer need) he could do this through Christ, but it did provide an opportunity to those who could see (after the flesh) a present need his were in where others could minister them.
 
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Root of Jesse

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We are also told to avoid the very appearance of evil (1 Thess 5:22).
So apply the verse in context. No I cannot judge ones intentions, nor do I know their heart, but, for example, if I see a friend of mines that's married, walking down the street with a woman who isn't his wife, and he has his hands around her waste, I could very well advise him that he ought not do that. Even if there is nothing going on between them, and that's just a way that they've walked since they were kids, it still conveys the wrong message.
Ew...lol...around her waist, a different matter. But seriously, there are cultures where women walk hand in hand with each other. Here, that might be taken as a homosexual couple, whereas there, it's just two people walking down the street.
Look, I promise not to come into your house of worship and criticize how you do it, and why don't you stop doing the same thing? If you're in a Catholic Church and you're not Catholic, you're a guest. Act like one. If you're in my house, and we do some ritual you're not familiar with, are you going to criticize that, too? We kneel in prayer, generally. Because all prayer is directed to God.
Are you going to criticize Muslims for kneeling on the ground when they pray to Mecca, too?
The appearance here was a correct appearance with a wrong attitude. So for example, If I profess to love God, and I show up to church, that will avail me nothing if my heart is far from him. And one's heart being far from God isn't gagued by the emotions. It doesn't matter what your feelings say to you, if you are doing something wrong, even with the best of intentions, it's still wrong, and if you refuse to correct said action, your heart is far from God.
It's not for you to judge, it's not for me to judge. God will be the judge.
Very true. In in all those cases, your actions or appearance, will tell on you, but since the issue at hand is bowing, we ought to stay focused. Scripture never uses the words latria, or dulia. But if we wanted to compare, one could easily say that John, for example, was attempting to give dulia to the angel. That was quickly forbidden. That seems to indicate that the act of bowing down, even to show respect, ought not be done.
Scripture doesn't use the words Trinity or Bible, either. There's lots of words that aren't in the Bible. We've made some and adapted some to mean what they mean. Angels have the ability to know our hearts, and could judge what our actions mean. Very different from you.
 
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sunlover1

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Rahab lied...Doesn't make it right, just think of the potentially magnificent ways God may have worked if she would have walked in His righteousness instead of lying.
OMGosh, you're right!
Good eye Simon.
LOVE to watch God do miracles.

So I suppose all the poor, hungry, homeless folks out there are hellbound? Yikes...I will inform the President that the way to cure poverty is to become a Protestant...smh
Now that's not what I said is it?
Ever consider that sometimes people are poor, hungry and homeless because that is what and where God wants/needs them?
No, I never have considered that.

Name it claim it aint the way for this guy...
I call it, "Scripture"
Simon posted some of it right here:

30But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. 33But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
So (I took the liberty of highlighting a couple items.)
Now THAT might more likely be your 'reason' for poverty
but i sure won't blame God when He says that IF you
seek first the kingdom of GOD.. and HIS righteousness..
all those things: food, clothing, drink
will be ADDED TO you.

Evidently you were right, it's lack of faith and wrong focus.
 
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