Someone help me: as a Creationist, I have God; as a would be Evolutionist, I have what?

LoG

Veteran
Site Supporter
May 14, 2005
1,363
118
✟70,204.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I was meaning your charge of blasphemy considering all the verses in the Bible that expressly contradict that He does not design and plan to the minutest detail.
And considering that :
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
What does "prechristian" even mean?

It's an implicit blasphemy to claim that an omnipotent Creator has to "design." That's a prechristian concept, not a Christian one.
 
Upvote 0

coffee4u

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2018
5,005
2,817
Australia
✟157,841.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
We know what life is, in biological terms, and if any organism that doesn't make its own food, depends on the death of other things. God surely knows this.

Biblical death is called nephesh chayyāh (נפש חיה) and it only refers to the death of the soul- animals and humans. Plants do not have soul and did not count as death.
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
26,212
11,445
76
✟368,206.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Biblical death is called nephesh chayyāh (נפש חיה) and it only refers to the death of the soul- animals and humans. Plants do not have soul and did not count as death.

That's a religious belief. There is no essential difference in the processes of plant life than in animal life.

And plants breath, while some animals don't. Again, it's like the Bible saying bats are birds. It doesn't apply to biology.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Brightmoon
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
26,212
11,445
76
✟368,206.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
I was meaning your charge of blasphemy considering all the verses in the Bible that expressly contradict that He does not design and plan to the minutest detail.

You couldn't find even one to show us?

And considering that :
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.


Hmm... no 'design' there.


What does "prechristian" even mean?

Actually, pre-Abraham. The beliefs of people in the Middle East were about limited gods and goddesses who were neither omnipotent or omniscient, and were unable to created a universe that would unfold as they desired.

The Israelites realized that this God who made a covenant with Abraham was above every other thing; He had created every other thing. He had nothing to design; he merely created without consideration. Being eternal, He doesn't change, as He would if He was actually designing.
 
Upvote 0

Cis.jd

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2015
3,613
1,484
New York, NY
✟140,465.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Hi there,

So of course the natural reaction is "you have faith: good for you". But I think it goes more deeply than that. I think having a God, at the very least, means that I have something for Evolutionists could believe, if only I knew what. I know the theory: call that which was not, as if it were - but does this mean call the Evolution of God (which was not), as though it - the Evolution of God - were? It seems that they are juxtaposed against each other: God does not send an updated Jesus, every time Evolution reboots with a different species! The one sacrifice was needed, that was all.

I mean if you really tried to be different, if you really looked up to Evolutionists, you still could never do it. You would always have the one sacrifice of Jesus, for all the species. It just doesn't make sense. I can't make it make sense. And for that I am told "go read 'Evolution for dummies'". As if somehow you can't explain it simple terms, if you wanted to. I have tried all the angles: is it a law? is it contingent? is it comparable? I just seem to get nowhere. You wouldn't think they expected to learn anything from it, themselves - the way they treat you as if you are the last person on earth to question what 'Evolution' means?

I will tell you something funny; just as I was typing this, a fly crept on to my screen. Rather than shoo the fly away, I circled it with my mouse cursor. At first the fly ignored it, then it started to move a little (and I kept circling it), then it discovered I was trapping it with the mouse cursor and it moved quickly to the text on the screen, where it thought it would be safe,, and I just waited, going left and right with the mouse cursor, when all of a sudden, the fly was put out, that it couldn't escape the mouse cursor - and why? because it was a fly! I was treating the fly as something that was foreign to the computer screen (using the mouse cursor) - so the fly flew! Could that have happened without design? A fly can't understand a computer, there's just no way - but a fly can react to a computer, because a computer's design is not superior, to that of a fly.

And that basically is the point, no part of Creation is subject to any other part. A supercomputer is never going to be smarter than a man, in as much as a man is simply smarter than other men. The man will always react to the computer, no matter how smart the computer gets. The same is true of Evolution. I am never going to be able to understand Evolution, as long as it keeps being a question of greater and greater connectivity; but I am always going to be able to react to it. In reacting, is humility; in humility, is justice. Whatever you want to say about Evolution, it should start from there?

Trying to think, not react.

Thanks.

I dont fully believe in evolution but I do see it as reputable. I do believe it more than the “literal 6 day” creation which i find is a horrible and shameful belief that certain christians state based on their lack of and disinterest in knowledge.

The thing with evolution to me is that it details God more as the great designer. What the bigger question is how can you not believe in a creator if you reject evolution (because of bad theology)? The brilliance in how species evolve to adapt to changing environments so that life can continue, with animals all having a similar construction... its all too brilliant and just makes God more real than a “6 day creation”.
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
26,212
11,445
76
✟368,206.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
I dont fully believe in evolution but I do see it as reputable. I do believe it more than the “literal 6 day” creation which i find is a horrible and shameful belief that certain christians state based on their lack of and disinterest in knowledge.

The thing with evolution to me is that it details God more as the great designer. What the bigger question is how can you not believe in a creator if you reject evolution (because of bad theology)? The brilliance in how species evolve to adapt to changing environments so that life can continue, with animals all having a similar construction... its all too brilliant and just makes God more real than a “6 day creation”.

Some IDers consider God's "designing" to be "front loading" where God instantaneously created from nothing, a universe in which all things would unfold as He intended.

"Which brings us back to where we began. Denton is not a creationist. He is not even an ID proponent, if ID is defined in a narrowly interventionist way. He firmly believes in the tree of life and common descent. If Denton does not believe the “types” arose though Darwinian processes and he does not believe they arose through interventionist acts of a designer, what does he believe? He believes the types were “prefigured into the order of things from the beginning.” From this I surmise he is a front-loading ID proponent."
Arrington's review of Denton, by chapter | Uncommon Descent

Most IDers cannot bring themselves to believe in a God wise enough and powerful enough to do this:

Though Steve doesn’t say this, if he’s right, it’s not at all obvious that this front-loading scenario is so much as possible. The only thing God would have to hardwire information at the beginning would be initial conditions, some proto-matter and the repetitive, law-like forces that govern the matter. But we can see the effects of both those initial conditions and the law-like regularities playing out in the material world now. They constitute the background to the information in biological systems–that is, the necessary but nowhere nearly sufficient background–the contrast medium for the information. What would it mean to tweak the expressions of gravity and electromagnetism so that they would give rise to the information-processing in cells and body plans of vertebrates?
...
Third, even if it’s possible for God to frontload things in this way, it hardly follows that this is a better explanation than the one Steve proposes
Intelligent Design, Front-Loading, and Theistic Evolution | Evolution News

As discussed here before, this grossly undervalues God's creative power. St. Thomas Aquinas noted that an omnipotent God can use contingency just as easily as He can use necessity to effect His will.


 
Upvote 0

Cis.jd

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2015
3,613
1,484
New York, NY
✟140,465.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Some IDers consider God's "designing" to be "front loading" where God instantaneously created from nothing, a universe in which all things would unfold as He intended.

"Which brings us back to where we began. Denton is not a creationist. He is not even an ID proponent, if ID is defined in a narrowly interventionist way. He firmly believes in the tree of life and common descent. If Denton does not believe the “types” arose though Darwinian processes and he does not believe they arose through interventionist acts of a designer, what does he believe? He believes the types were “prefigured into the order of things from the beginning.” From this I surmise he is a front-loading ID proponent."
Arrington's review of Denton, by chapter | Uncommon Descent

Most IDers cannot bring themselves to believe in a God wise enough and powerful enough to do this:

Though Steve doesn’t say this, if he’s right, it’s not at all obvious that this front-loading scenario is so much as possible. The only thing God would have to hardwire information at the beginning would be initial conditions, some proto-matter and the repetitive, law-like forces that govern the matter. But we can see the effects of both those initial conditions and the law-like regularities playing out in the material world now. They constitute the background to the information in biological systems–that is, the necessary but nowhere nearly sufficient background–the contrast medium for the information. What would it mean to tweak the expressions of gravity and electromagnetism so that they would give rise to the information-processing in cells and body plans of vertebrates?
...
Third, even if it’s possible for God to frontload things in this way, it hardly follows that this is a better explanation than the one Steve proposes
Intelligent Design, Front-Loading, and Theistic Evolution | Evolution News

As discussed here before, this grossly undervalues God's creative power. St. Thomas Aquinas noted that an omnipotent God can use contingency just as easily as He can use necessity to effect His will.

They are a minority. Its not about doubting the power of God but recognizing that he is thee mastermind. The universe shows his way of creation is all intelligent and not some wizard like stuff as to what you baselessly imply.

Not only is the universe fine tune but it is readable. There is a language that is read by us as numbers (math) and through this we can see how the universe functions and we can utilize it to create/design our own stuff.

So its highly hard to believe that God is a wizard like deity that just poofs it all like Akazukin Cha Cha when the universe shows it is engineered. Your sources are not good and also meaningless because whether or not they believe that God made things in a progressive way as St Augustine theorized, but it doesn't eliminate the fact that evolution is more of evidence of this world being a design and not an accident. Watch William L Craig’s debate on Christopher Hitchens.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Cis.jd

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2015
3,613
1,484
New York, NY
✟140,465.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Actually, pre-Abraham. The beliefs of people in the Middle East were about limited gods and goddesses who were neither omnipotent or omniscient, and were unable to created a universe that would unfold as they desired.

I suggest you calm down and think/research about what you say because you are making Christianity (and God) to be a sillier tale of fiction that is even intelligently told.

First of all, most of the BC gods and the longest myths about them was creating the universe with no thought. You’ll google up fake or later day myths of them thinking during creation but the actual historical ones was either by war, having sex, and other means.

A creation that has an intelligent intent in where functions, systems, and everything else planned is a design. This is not a “pre-christian” argument, the pre-christian argument is what you are doing. We christians (mainly the Catholic church) new God was too great to be understood as a creator just by 1,200 + pages.
We had the common sense to know that there was more to this universe that wasn't told in pages, and because of that you now have things such as the law pf gravity, discovering the earth was the one that revolved around the sun, the Gregorian calendar - in where we looked to the stars and calculated everything on their to have the understanding and accuracy.
We christians did that because we understand that the universe was also God’s word that he designed. If we never saw it as a design we would not even attempt to access/discover how things systematically worked.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
26,212
11,445
76
✟368,206.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Every post you’ve made shows you are ignorant about many things.

Well, you know how ignorant old barbarians are...

you are making Christianity (and God) to be a sillier tale of fiction than those older religions.

If you calmed down a bit and thought about it, the difference between an omnipotent creator of the universe, and the other gods believed by other religions in that area is one of kind, not of degree. Think. And then we can talk.

Most of the BC gods did not create the world at will,

That's what I just showed you.

a good majority of them created the world through war, sex, and whatever.

While the God of Abraham created all things, not just this world. That should be an important clue for you.

A creation that has an intelligent intent in where functions, systems, and everything else planned is a design.

No. God's creation is not a bigger version of what we do. Limited creatures design; God creates. There is a difference in kind between the creation of God and the designs of men. He's not just bigger and smarter, He's the Creator.

This is not a “pre-christian” argument.

Pre-Abraham. People could only envision gods as mightier versions of themselves, doing things as they did, only bigger. God showed Abraham something quite different.

Creation isn't just design scaled up. It's something entirely above design.
 
Upvote 0

Cis.jd

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2015
3,613
1,484
New York, NY
✟140,465.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
That's what I just showed you.
But what you are missing is the difference between creation and design. The creation stories we have about those myths is what you call creation only. Its just the world came to existence with out thought. Nothing was assigned or appointed. It just happened unintelligently due to the power of these gods.

No. God's creation is not a bigger version of what we do. Limited creatures design; God creates. There is a difference in kind between the creation of God and the designs of men. He's not just bigger and smarter, He's the Creator.
no there is a difference between the meaning of create and design. Create is simply putting into existence.. design is when a creation becomes or has things that are appointed to or assigned. In other words there is functionality.

Pre-Abraham. People could only envision gods as mightier versions of themselves, doing things as they did, only bigger. God showed Abraham something quite different. Creation isn't just design scaled up. It's something entirely above design.

Pre Abrahan is a nomadic time. But then again, you’ve been arguing -as you stated “i just said that” how these gods made the universe through combat, sex, and other random ways. The universe itself is already proof that it wasn’t just put to existence just look at water cycle, how sea turtles know where to lay eggs and where to go after they hatch, how your own cells work.

Edit: i just realized you are catholic. Read up on st augustine
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
26,212
11,445
76
✟368,206.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
They are a minority. Its not about doubting the power of God but recognizing that he is thee mastermind. The universe shows his way of creation is all intelligent and not some wizard like stuff as to what you baselessly imply.

No, "wizard stuff" would be again, limited creature things. God is another category entirely.

Not only is the universe fine tune but it is readable. There is a language that is read by us as numbers (math) and through this we can see how the universe functions and we can utilize it to create/design our own stuff.

Because we cannot truly create. We have to figure things out, and design.

So its highly hard to believe that God is a wizard like deity that just poofs it all like Akazukin Cha Cha

That's what pre-Abrahamic religions thought. But God is not merely greater; He created everything. The universe in which we live might have been made ex nihilo. But scripture itself points out that He created many things using the universe he had made instantaneously.

when the universe shows it is engineered.

That's a bad assumption. It looks created, not engineered. As engineers have come to realize, the processes of the universe are more efficient than design. That's what genetic algorithms do. For very complex problems, engineers are finding that processes from His creation work better than design.

Your sources are not good

They may be creationists and IDers, but they do recognize the "front loading" concept in ID. Michael Denton is perhaps the extreme case on one end; proposing complete front-loading, with Philip Johnson the other extreme limiting God to constant special creation, being unable to do what Denton thinks the "designer" did.

and also meaningless because whether or not they believe that God made things in a progressive way as St Augustine theorized, but it doesn't eliminate the fact that evolution is more of evidence of this world being a design and not an accident.

Neither design nor accident, but creation. And neo-Platonism never really made much sense to me. The world is knowable, and logical because that is the kind of world in which we can live. That wasn't something God figured out. It was merely His will. And God being eternal, so was His intent.
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
26,212
11,445
76
✟368,206.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
But what you are missing is knowing the difference between creation and design. The creation stories we have about those myths is what you call creation only.

Quite the opposite. We see endless variations on this deity or that, who within time, developed some idea and took from already-existing things to make something else. That's design. It's not what God does.

What you dont realize is that you’ve dumbed down the Christian God to be just like that with a mix of Gandolf.

A God Who is eternal, and who has no need of design seems to be more in line with Illuvatar (Eru), than Gandalf who could create nothing, much less sentient beings. As you might know, Tolkien's Illuvatar, being eternal, never planned creation and made it so, utilizing those things he had made to complete His will.

Tolkien, who was Catholic, saw Illuvatar not as a fictional being, but as a literary representation of the real one God.

Gandalf would best be understood as a powerful angel, who for a time was given a body and many of the limitations of men, for a specific purpose.
 
Upvote 0

Cis.jd

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2015
3,613
1,484
New York, NY
✟140,465.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
No, "wizard stuff" would be again, limited creature things. God is another category entirely.
Yes, he is another category he is the mastermind.

Because we cannot truly create. We have to figure things out, and design.
Design is not a limitation or a show of a lack of (super)powers it is simply showing him off as intelligent. Design is simply creating something that functions, in where elements are all appointed to. Its creation done intelligently.

Just take a look at the Church. How did we come up with the Gregorian calendar, how did Galileo find out that the earth revolves around the sun? Why find out? Because the Bible speaks about creation but we also see in the universe that it is a design.


That's what pre-Abrahamic religions thought. But God is not merely greater; He created everything. The universe in which we live might have been made ex nihilo. But scripture itself points out that He created many things using the universe he had made instantaneously.
Yes, he put everything in existence that is the definition of creation but we also see that he assigned and appointed things in creation to work systematically.

Post something about the water cycle, how do we get rain.. after that tell me how we get oxygen.. how does life reproduce and then decompose?

That's a bad assumption. It looks created, not engineered. As engineers have come to realize, the processes of the universe are more efficient than design. That's what genetic algorithms do. For very complex problems, engineers are finding that processes from His creation work better than design.
Why is it a bad assumption? How are we able to read the universe through mathematics, do you think we just imagined these numbers and formulas out of thin air and just happen to be right? No. These numbers show the accessibility of the creation hence proving the creation is an engineered type. Again, we go back to the church and their reasoning for looking through telescopes and even doing mathematics to understand what is going on up there.

Neither design nor accident, but creation. And neo-Platonism never really made much sense to me. The world is knowable, and logical because that is the kind of world in which we can live. That wasn't something God figured out. It was merely His will. And God being eternal, so was His intent.

Creation that isn't designed is more likely an accident. Look at those ancient “pre abraham” myths. The universe was created by deities accidentally. These deities didnt make life intentionally, they where just powerful and did it out of accident or reproduction. Nothing assigned or tuned in.

Sorry for being a bit hot headed in my earlier replies. I edited it out to be more respectful.. Because since you are Catholic i know you are not closed to fundamentalism. I just think you are confused on terminologies more and have the wrong understanding of definition of design.. read up on St Augustine and other good thinkers in the churches (or Eastern Orthodox) history.
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
26,212
11,445
76
✟368,206.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
The universe itself is already proof that it wasn’t just put to existence just look at water cycle, how sea turtles know where to lay eggs and where to go after they hatch, how your own cells work.

And you suppose God wasn't capable of creating something like this without giving the problem some consideration? He's eternal. Never has to do that.

Edit: i just realized you are catholic. Read up on st augustine

St. Augustine saw creation as happening instantaneously, with all things, including "beasts" developing from potentialities within the original creation.

But I don't see anything Augustine wrote that would promote a Blakean God of the Calipers, studiously designing what He could not create instantly.
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
26,212
11,445
76
✟368,206.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Sorry for being a bit hot headed in my earlier replies. I edited it out to be more respectful..

Don't worry about me taking offense. I value bluntness, if honestly delivered. And clearly, it was.

Why is it a bad assumption? How are we able to read the universe through mathematics, do you think we just imagined these numbers and formulas out of thin air and just happen to be right? No. These numbers show the accessibility of the creation hence proving the creation is an engineered type. Again, we go back to the church and their reasoning for looking through telescopes and even doing mathematics to understand what is going on up there.

I can't see God going over the details and building a design as He looks over the plan, realizing that in order for matter to exist, He's going to have to set a higher value for the speed of light.

Engineers take what they find in nature and make things from it. Which is entirely different than creating nature.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Cis.jd

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2015
3,613
1,484
New York, NY
✟140,465.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
And you suppose God wasn't capable of creating something like this without giving the problem some consideration? He's eternal. Never has to do that.
I don't think his capability is being questioned. But the evidence is based on not just how systematic the universe operates but it being accessible.

St. Augustine saw creation as happening instantaneously, with all things, including "beasts" developing from potentialities within the original creation.

But I don't see anything Augustine wrote that would promote a Blakean God of the Calipers, studiously designing what He could not create instantly.

If you have access to his books, check out Book V chapter 7. You’ll see him talk about the production of things and how animals and plants where generated from water and earth and gradually developed into their present form.

Aside from that book, i recommend you read this link on what he teaches about how to approach science and the Bible.

How Augustine Reined in Science
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Cis.jd

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2015
3,613
1,484
New York, NY
✟140,465.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I can't see God going over the details and building a design as He looks over the plan, realizing that in order for matter to exist, He's going to have to set a higher value for the speed of light.

Engineers take what they find in nature and make things from it. Which is entirely different than creating nature.

But dont you see your reasoning here is contradictory to what you have been arguing about with creation? You’ve said: “and you supposed that God wasnt capable of creating..” can’t you use that same reasoning with Design.

“Looking over a plan”.. how does this mean a design? What you just described is more of creation. Design is obsolete - when a creation has been assigned/appointed to something or someone.. create is simply just putting something into existence. Everything in this solar system is all assigned to keep life on this planet.. this shows this universe is more than just put into existence but functionally working purposefully.
 
Upvote 0

Nancy Hale

Active Member
Dec 29, 2019
226
157
Nevada
✟24,486.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
We know what life is, in biological terms, and if any organism that doesn't make its own food, depends on the death of other things. God surely knows this.

So then, if it's not a biological death, what is it? The text tells you what it is. God says to Adam that he will die the day he eats from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam eats, but lives on biologically for many years thereafter. But what does happen is Adam dies a spiritual death that day, suddenly fearing God, aware of good and evil. He's become like God, potentially capable of fellowship with Him. But unable to be truly good, he's now estranged from God, dead in spirit, and unable to save himself.

This is why God sent His Son. If Jesus came to save us from a physical death, He failed. We will all die someday. But we can be saved from that greater and more devastating death if we will only accept His sacrifice for us.

Adam was never immortal; in Genesis, God even expresses concern that he might become so, and prevents it from happening.

We have created a definition for life that fits what we see.
Certainly God knows what death is. Certainly God does not lie. If God said we died the moment we ate from that tree, we did. Let God be true and every human being a liar.
But, more than that changed.
And, Adam was permitted to eat from the tree of life, which would have "caused him to live for ever" - sounds like immortality to me. It also sounds physical, since it is something ingested. But, how would anyone absolutely know?
How many RC Saints withstood things society would consider biologically impossible? I'm assuming you're RC, but we could talk icons. Do Catholics not hold God's truth as The Truth and man's as inferior?
 
Upvote 0

Jamdoc

Watching and Praying Always
Oct 22, 2019
7,503
2,336
43
Helena
✟207,423.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
A lot of it is a misunderstanding of what "evolution" really is.
What evolution really is is applied genetics combined with sexual reproduction and environmental stimulus. It is a process, that is fundamentally not unlike any other biological process such as digesting food, breathing, or sexual reproduction itself which is a key element of the biological process of evolution. All evolution truly means is gradual change over generations, particularly hereditary changes.

What is called microevolution, which is hereditary changes within populations within the same species, is not even theory, it's fact, it's something that we humans have done in the past and continue to do. Think about how many breeds of dogs there are. God didn't individually create Golden Retrievers and Beagles and Alaskan Malamutes. Humans separated out traits they liked and bred them together, substituting for environmental stimulus to evolve a breed specialized in those traits they wanted, like a good nose for tracking, or a soft mouth for retrieving fowl without damaging it, a downy undercoat to keep a dog warm and powerful muscles to pull through the snow. But what God created, was the species that our domesticated dogs were bred from, Canis lupus. Similarly, you can grow bacteria in a petri dish, then introduce discs containing weak concentrations of antibiotics, and grow them, then if you take a sample of the colonies that grow closest to the disc, and put them on another dish with higher concentrations, and keep repeating, you'll find after a few generations, the bacteria can now fill the whole plate and pretty much ignore the antibiotics. Why? Because you provided the bacteria with an environmental pressure so that bacteria that could resist the antibiotic survived and reproduced, while those susceptible to the antibiotic died. All the future generations that were reproducing all had the genetics to resist the antibiotic.

Evolution, as a process, is not incompatible with creationism, or God, unless you have a very narrow view of what it means for God to create something (IE it has to be magically poofed into existence). Evolution being change over generations because of genetics, sexual reproduction, and environmental pressures (or outside manipulation, such as when humans selectively breed for something, genetically engineer something, or, think of this, if humans can manipulate DNA to create hybrids, just think of how God can use that knowledge? God created the genetic code.) is just a mechanism for expanding diversity within a species is what we know for fact, expanding diversity of the number of species itself is where it crosses into the theory realm because it is not something that we can duplicate ourselves (though we could certainly create hybrids that are sometimes different enough to be their own species, GMO's and the like). But I'd argue is not out of the realm of possibilities for God to do. Genesis uses the word kind a lot, and I think it is logical, that what God created were kinds rather than individual species, a kind might be the equivalent of a taxonomical family. Such as the Canidae family. Noah had to cram 2 of every kind of animal on the ark, not 2 of every species, of which there are millions of species, but a lot fewer families. From those representative species, diversity could have evolved out of those, especially if God had wanted to speed up the process Himself.

Ultimately they are all still God's creations, even if a biological process was involved as the mechanism that God used to create, because God created that mechanism itself. Think about this, does it make you any less God's creation that you were born from a biological process of your parents having sex, father's sperm fusing with mother's egg, combining from 2 haploid (1 half of a set of normal human chromosomes) sets of chromosomes into a full diploid set, and the cell undergoing mitosis, expressing different genes to specialize stem cells into different types of cells to form all your organs and tissues, given nourishment and oxygen from your mother's blood, and being born? God didn't sculpt you with His own hands and breathe life into you, but to me you are no less a creature of God. Even if "evolution" was a part of the process. It is still creation by God.

Still stuck on magic because in Genesis 1 God spoke things into being? He did some but I'd like to point out that in Genesis 1, there are several times that the act of speaking, and the act of creating, are in separate verses, which to me indicates that God didn't necessarily speak it out of nothing, but He created it with an unspecified mechanism, sometimes we might find evidence of that mechanism in nature.
Genesis 1:3
This is speaking something into existence directly. There is no followup verse where God actively does anything other than speak, aside from God dividing light from darkness, but the light itself was just "there" right after God spoke.
This on the other hand Genesis 1:6-7
Separation between speaking and God actively doing something to create, with no explanation how God did it. This happens again in Genesis 1:20-21 and Genesis 1:24-25 That's the creation of animals. He separated the act of speaking from the act of creating. This has always been an "Aha!" moment for me, where scripture and science are not necessarily in conflict, but rather man's interpretation of scripture has been in conflict with science.

My absolute favorite verse is Proverbs 25:2 it is my "scientist" verse
and I find that scripture can conceal things that God maybe felt was better for us to "search out" these matters for ourselves. Study of nature itself should always reveal God, not conflict with Him. Scripture does not lie, but scripture conceals, and our interpretations of it can be flawed. Nature does not lie either, and nature definitely conceals, it has to be "searched out", but our understanding of it can be flawed.

So is science wrong? No.
Is scripture wrong? No.
Can our interpretations of scripture, with a prejudice towards a certain narrative mislead us? Yes.
Can our interpretations of data taken from observations of data, with a prejudice towards a certain narrative mislead us? Yes.

If we read the bible with a preconception that God does things entirely through magic, then we'll interpret scripture to back up that preconception, and assume any time science disagrees with that preconception, than the science is wrong.
If we observe nature with a preconception that there is no God, that things had to have happened naturally on their own, then you'll interpret findings that lead you to hypothesis supporting that preconception.
What needs to be done is observations of nature and scripture, need to be compared as if both the raw data from the observations, and the raw scripture, are both true, then the interpretation of both where they agree with each other, is more likely to be closer to the truth. We won't know the absolute truth of it until we can ask God face to face. But it can be a guess that we have.
For example, the "Big Bang". Both science, and the bible, agree that at a point in time, matter and energy sprang into existence very suddenly. The difference is, the naturalist world view holds that the big bang had no cause, the bible tells us the cause. Was there a big bang? Yes, absolutely there was, the cosmic microwave background radiation is "the echo of the big bang", the universe is expanding, expanding from what? Its point of origin where a big bang occurred. When God created the universe at the beginning, it manifested as a giant explosion of matter and energy that didn't previously exist, but now it suddenly came into being. Scripture and science agree on the raw data.

So to conclude, is Evolution "the enemy" and Godless and abiblical? Not necessarily. What is the opposing view is not evolution, a process, itself, but rather the NATURALIST world view, that it happened completely on its own, without God.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

coffee4u

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2018
5,005
2,817
Australia
✟157,841.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
A lot of it is a misunderstanding of what "evolution" really is.

While I am well aware the word 'evolution' has been applied to a range of things, what I and what I believe most other creationists mean by the term is non-life springing to life by itself and one cell creatures gradually changing over millions of years into fish, animals, primates and man. This is because the term is loaded and what most people think of when it is mentioned.

Think about how many breeds of dogs there are. God didn't individually create Golden Retrievers and Beagles and Alaskan Malamutes. Humans separated out traits they liked and bred them together, substituting for environmental stimulus to evolve a breed specialized in those traits they wanted, like a good nose for tracking, or a soft mouth for retrieving fowl without damaging it, a downy undercoat to keep a dog warm and powerful muscles to pull through the snow. But what God created, was the species that our domesticated dogs were bred from, Canis lupus.

This is what we call specialization. We believe God created kinds.
Genesis 1
24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.”

We don't know exactly what a kind was since they are not around any longer but it was an animal that was capable of producing a range of species and breeds. Beagles and Alaskan Malamutes came from a dog kind.
One test is if animals can breed together like tigers and lions. But due to loss of genetics material, some have lost this ability even if they originated from the same kind.

We also believe kinds went onto the ark not breeds.
19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive.

Similarly, you can grow bacteria in a petri dish, then introduce discs containing weak concentrations of antibiotics, and grow them, then if you take a sample of the colonies that grow closest to the disc, and put them on another dish with higher concentrations, and keep repeating, you'll find after a few generations, the bacteria can now fill the whole plate and pretty much ignore the antibiotics. Why? Because you provided the bacteria with an environmental pressure so that bacteria that could resist the antibiotic survived and reproduced, while those susceptible to the antibiotic died. All the future generations that were reproducing all had the genetics to resist the antibiotic.

This we also call specialization. We believe the original kind contained all the varieties of genes that all species and breeds that came from it will ever show.
The resistant bacteria had the gene needed to resist. The bacteria without the gene died off and the bacteria with the gene flourished.
This is in contrast to evolution that says the bacteria developed the ability at some point.

Evolution, as a process, is not incompatible with creationism

Creation:
Day 1)Light source which wasn't the sun
Day 2)Sky and water vapour canopy, Land and sea
Day 3)Plants
Day 4)sun, moon and stars.
Day 5)Sea creatures and flying creatures, including birds and insects
day 6) Land animals including dinosaurs. Man

All made 'very good'. No death. Death only begins after sin. Death is a thief and an enemy that does not belong and will one day be taken away.


Evolution:
Big Bang
sun and solar system developed slowly from cosmic gas and dust.
chemical origin of life, one cell creatures.
Uni cellular- Chordata- Lobe Finned- Amphibia
Reptile- T.Form- P Robustas - H.Erectus- H.Sapiens

All occurring over millions and billions of years while things died. Death, more death and yet more death. Death is simply a mechanism to weed out the weak and non-suitable.

If we read the bible with a preconception that God does things entirely through magic, then we'll interpret scripture to back up that preconception,

Magic being your word for miracle?
God created
Manah fell from heaven
A virgin gave birth
the blind and crippled were healed
Jesus died and rose again and ascended into heaven

No miracle is greater than another but if you question creation why not question the others?

and assume any time science disagrees with that preconception, than the science is wrong.

Far better to assume the Bible is wrong than science, right? How about the scandalous idea that evolutionary science could be wrong? You realize the world they are testing is not the world God made? You realize that not only was it covered with water and mud in a global flood, but the world after the fall and before the flood was a greenhouse with long life and long growing periods. The water canopy collapsed at the flood allowing in space radiation. Across the globe volcanoes erupted creating lightning and electricity across the planet.
The Bible gives a framework with which to work in. If science, which is really just man and what he has learned and what he thinks falls outside the framework then science is the one that is wrong.

So to conclude, is Evolution "the enemy" and Godless and abiblical? Not necessarily. What is the opposing view is not evolution, a process, itself, but rather the NATURALIST world view, that it happened completely on its own, without God.

Death is very much the enemy and a huge part of evolution.
 
Upvote 0