Some Russians don't believe their own relatives in Ukraine

Halbhh

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(On the ground in Kyiv video added in middle below)

"...22-year-old Julia Tymoshenko called her relative in Moscow. "I told her about spending a night in the basement of our building in Kyiv, waking up at 4:00 a.m. to the sounds of explosions and fighter jets.

My aunt told me, 'Well, you don't know who did that.'"

What Russians can see of their war against Ukraine

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Another:

Four days after Russia began dropping artillery shells on Kyiv, Misha Katsurin, a Ukrainian restaurateur, was wondering why his father, a church custodian living in the Russian city of Nizhny Novgorod, hadn’t called to check on him.

“There is a war, I’m his son, and he just doesn’t call,” Mr. Katsurin, who is 33, said in an interview. So, Mr. Katsurin picked up the phone and let his father know that Ukraine was under attack by Russia.

“I’m trying to evacuate my children and my wife — everything is extremely scary,” Mr. Katsurin told him.

He did not get the response he expected. His father, Andrei, didn’t believe him.

“No, no, no, no stop,” Mr. Katsurin said of his father’s initial response.

“He started to tell me how the things in my country are going,” said Mr. Katsurin, who converted his restaurants into volunteer centers and is temporarily staying near the western Ukrainian city of Ternopil. “He started to yell at me and told me, ‘Look, everything is going like this. They are Nazis.’”

As Ukrainians deal with the devastation of the Russian attacks in their homeland, many are also encountering a confounding and almost surreal backlash from family members in Russia, who refuse to believe that Russian soldiers could bomb innocent people, or even that a war is taking place at all."

Ukrainians Find That Relatives in Russia Don’t Believe It’s a War

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Russia has taken over all news broadcasting with tight rules and shut downs of independent media, and unreality is reality:


A majority of Russians get their news from broadcast television, which is fully controlled by the state. “This is largely a country of older people and poor people,” Lev Gudkov told me. Gudkov is the director of the Levada Center, which was once Russia’s leading public-opinion-research organization ...
There are more Russians over the age of forty-five than there are between the ages of fifteen and forty-four. Even those who get their news online are still unlikely to encounter a narrative that differs from what broadcast television offers. The state continues to ratchet up pressure on the few surviving independent media outlets, blocking access to their Web sites, requiring them to preface their content with a disclaimer that it was created by a “foreign agent,” ...

State television varies little, aesthetically and narratively, from channel to channel. .... There is no ongoing live coverage, no acknowledgment that what’s happening is extraordinary, even as Russian bombs fall on Ukraine’s residential areas and the Russian economy enters a tailspin.

The news lineup, too, changes little day to day. On Thursday, the 7 a.m. newscast on Channel One lasted six minutes and contained six stories: a new round of Russian-Ukrainian peace talks in which Russia was eager to seek “common ground”; the “shelling of the Donetsk People’s Republic by the Ukrainian armed forces,” from which “twenty-five civilians have died.” A segue: “And now let’s look at footage from the Chernigov region, an area that is now controlled by the Russian armed forces. . . . Civilians continue driving around on their regular business.” (There were no civilians in the footage shown, only an endless sequence of armored vehicles.) Then: “Russia has prepared more than ten and a half thousand tons of humanitarian aid for the people of Ukraine”; “The West is pumping Ukraine full of offensive weapons”; “Aeroflot is organizing charter flights to return Russian citizens stranded in Europe.” Then the young male host announced, “The next scheduled program is ‘Good Morning.’ ” There was no mention of Kharkiv or Kyiv, which had been bombed the day before. ...

Gudkov summed up the world view shaped by Russian television:

“Russia is a victim, as it has been ever since the Second World War. The West aims to establish world domination. Its ultimate goal is to humiliate Russia and take possession of its natural resources. Russia is forced to defend itself.” Days before the full-scale invasion began, the Levada Center asked Russians who they thought was responsible for the mounting tensions in Ukraine. Three per cent blamed Russia, fourteen per cent blamed Ukraine, and sixty per cent blamed the United States."
...
The War That Russians Do Not See
 
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timothyu

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Russians are no different in their thinking about Ukraine and the West moving in than the US was about Cuba and the USSR moving in. Same situation, different team of the sporting event. You can't condemn one without also condemning the other.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Yeah I heard about this, it kind of reminds me of the old Counter Culture saying of "don't trust anyone over 30" because it is the people who are middle aged and older that generally support the government by wide margins, also the people who get their news primarily from TV that is now entirely state controlled vs. the internet.
 
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Halbhh

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Russians are no different in their thinking about Ukraine and the West moving in than the US was about Cuba and the USSR moving in. Same situation, different team of the sporting event. You can't condemn one without also condemning the other.
Well, there is always distortion about what is happening in another country, in this case, as you learn in the OP, that distortion and misrepresentation inside Russia just recently has become very extreme -- intentional.

As Putin has limited, and ended, many independent media.

So what Russia has today, here in late March is not merely the 'lack of perspective of being there in person' but worse: it's from intentional misrepresentation.

In contrast, here in the U.S., we have plenty of reporting that isn't always great at perspective, but at least there isn't a uniform across the board restriction meant to force the media to only give one story -- so you see a variety of viewpoints and ideas.

And, also we have some media that does actually try hard to report factual things -- media that focuses on increasing the factual portion: more facts and a little less opinion.

There's a night and day difference between official state propaganda and an independent media allowed to report facts on the ground without much restriction. Those 2 are quite different in the end.

No matter how many times you find limited understanding in the free media (not controlled by the state) -- a gradual slow progress to learning more happens because there is freedom to report and slowly more real things become evident over time.

So, always imperfect, but so much better than intentional state propaganda.
 
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Halbhh

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Yeah I heard about this, it kind of reminds me of the old Counter Culture saying of "don't trust anyone over 30" because it is the people who are middle aged and older that generally support the government by wide margins, also the people who get their news primarily from TV that is now entirely state controlled vs. the internet.
If only the stories about Ukraine Putin has spun up and repeated were actually the truth, instead of a cynical manipulation of the public, then Russians would be well justified to feel good about fighting a real evil in that alternate universe (instead of the reality here in this one of being lied to in order to make them think that they are fighting evil, when they are instead being used for evils like bombing civilian areas to try to force Ukraine to capitulate to save buildings and lives of civilians, women and children, so that Putin can try to recreate the (imperialistic) Soviet Union he worked hard for in his KGB youth).
 
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Halbhh

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Russians are no different in their thinking about Ukraine and the West moving in than the US was about Cuba and the USSR moving in. Same situation, different team of the sporting event. You can't condemn one without also condemning the other.
I thought the videos in post #2 and #5 (and post #3 too, though just another example) were especially helpful about reporting actual factual things, to counter the false ideas we've heard some, such as it's merely a war about boundaries or about NATO being too close, and other things Putin said . What is your view after seeing those videos in posts #2 and #5?
 
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timothyu

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you learn in the OP, that distortion and misrepresentation inside Russia just recently has become very extreme -- intentional.
No different than in the US compliments of the corporate owned mainstream media... controlling the narrative is the way.
 
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Halbhh

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No different than in the US compliments of the corporate owned mainstream media... controlling the narrative is the way.
As I was trying to explain in post #7, there is that huge long run difference between biased media that is in competition with freedom of reporting vs the very different situation of strictly controlled state media.

The biased commercial media in competition will gradually, slowly, convey some real facts that now and then help people understand more, in spite of being imperfect and biased.

But the state propaganda is very different in that way: it aims to intentionally mislead and will not help people even here and there learn much real factual things, because the whole aim is only and entirely to hide the facts.

With the free media, you get bits of the reality along with bias, and plenty of competition to tell you facts. In the later, state propaganda, you get lots of outright lies meant only to hide facts, and no competing outlets to give you a different view.
 
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timothyu

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What is your view after seeing those videos in posts #2 and #5?
Typical western slant catering to western interests and grossly outdated. Ukraine president said last week there would be no more intention to join NATO. #5 is typical of any scorched earth war where the idea is to destroy everything which will make a country weak for decades t come. Traditionally Russian. You might want to ask why a million civilians died in Iraq. Typically American? But no matter what mainstream media you listen to, it is all propaganda for the interest of those at the top. People are dumb enough to play along and even take sides. Easily controlled.

Perhaps you would like to get some intellect info as compared to the usual amateurish pundit stuff info. WATCH: Mearsheimer and McGovern on Ukraine
 
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Halbhh

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You might want to ask why a million civilians died in Iraq.
America is guilty of a lot of wrongs. But is that the topic of this thread? Not that I can see -- I'm not anywhere suggesting that America always does right or any such propaganda. Instead, I'm pointing out the very extreme new situation inside Russia, which is very concerning and very relevant to us right now, because of what may come from it. Because of the extreme level of propaganda inside of Russia, it may be that Germany doubling its defense budget really is for the best (which is not normally anything I'd ever say).
 
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timothyu

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America is guilty of a lot of wrongs. But is that the topic of this thread? Not that I can see -- I'm not anywhere suggesting that America always does right or any such propaganda. Instead, I'm pointing out the very extreme new situation inside Russia, which is very concerning and very relevant to us right now, because of what may come from it.
The point is there is no right and wrong. Both are just as guilty.
 
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Halbhh

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The point is there is no right and wrong. Both are just as guilty.
Because of the big change -- the entirely new situation -- of Russia now going to 100% pure propaganda, and all freedom of the press shut down.

Someone like you or me would end up in jail there....

That huge new change that isn't like a few months ago even....

It may actually make sense then that Germany is doubling its defense budget really is for the best (which is not normally anything I'd ever say). Because that increase in German military defense might help deter Putin from invading to retake Poland or such, as it was before under largely under Russian control in the Warsaw Pact.
 
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timothyu

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Because of the big change -- the entirely new situation -- of Russia now going to 100% pure propaganda, and all freedom of the press shut down.

Someone like you or me would end up in jail there....

That huge new change that isn't like a few months ago even....

Funny how a few months ago we were comparing western media and tech censorship to the old Pravda of the USSR. Now Russia is showing in a renewed concentrated form what has been happening everywhere, especially the net, in recent years. When you come right down to it, everything in this world is a lie, and it is high time people stopped taking sides in it.
 
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Halbhh

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Funny how a few months ago we were comparing western media and tech censorship to the old Pravda of the USSR. Now Russia is showing in a renewed concentrated form what has been happening everywhere, especially the net, in recent years. When you come right down to it, everything in this world is a lie, and it is high time people stopped taking sides in it.
Yes, I'm very pro Russian just like I'm pro Ukrainian, and pro French, and pro Mexican, and pro American.

I actually really loved all the Russians I met face to face in person like in NYC. They were very easy to like, because they were so very friendly, for one thing. Maybe it's just the luck of having personal exposure, but Russians are easy to love. Just like many other nationalities.

Part of what is so awful is how many Russian troops are dying. (probably well over 10,000 already, which is very fast and steep losses)
But...I can't really blame Ukraine -- they are fighting to defend their country, and their cities, and their civilians.

It's a huge tragedy. Putin does really have blame here for making an already problematic situation far far far worse -- his own choice -- and deserves blame for that wrong right along with some others like those that kept Russia out of NATO back when Russia wanted to join NATO, way back.
 
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timothyu

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like those that kept Russia out of NATO back when Russia wanted to join NATO, way back.
Yes Russia sacrificed 28 million fighters to win WWII on both fronts for the western world and yet their reward was reneging on such as promised oil rights in the Middle East and the start of a cold war to keep them from sharing the spoils which made the US the world leader as the British Empire paid off their war debt to them. This all after Marxism was originally imposed on Russia by the west.
 
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