Some random discussion on evolution...

Guy Threepwood

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2019
1,117
73
51
Midwest
✟18,520.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Just to be clear, you are suggesting - in all seriousness - that there is more evidence for a deity (and presumably the Christian deity) than there is for evolution?

If we define deity here as intelligent creator of life, and evolution as in Darwin's theory of it,
absolutely yes, quite a bit more objective scientific evidence for the former I would submit to you!


Note: it is a given that science is not in the business of proving things.


ideally yes, unfortunately not all scientists agree with us
"Evolution is a fact. Beyond reasonable doubt, beyond serious doubt, beyond sane, informed, intelligent doubt, beyond doubt evolution is a fact."

Richard Dawkins


I applaud your honesty. You are agreeing that blind faith is believing something because you think it is true and regular faith is recognising that you believe something just because you believe it.

Blind faith is demonstrated in the Dawkins quote, failing to recognize one's personal beliefs as such-
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,625
81
St Charles, IL
✟347,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
If we define deity here as intelligent creator of life, and evolution as in Darwin's theory of it,
absolutely yes, quite a bit more objective scientific evidence for the former I would submit to you!
But they are two separate questions, not alternatives. The theory of evolution does not speak to the existence of God, either for or against.





ideally yes, unfortunately not all scientists agree with us
"Evolution is a fact. Beyond reasonable doubt, beyond serious doubt, beyond sane, informed, intelligent doubt, beyond doubt evolution is a fact."

Richard Dawkins




Blind faith is demonstrated in the Dawkins quote, failing to recognize one's personal beliefs as such-
But it is a fact. Evolution has occurred--even creationists agree to it. The theory of evolution, an explanation of the process by which that evolution occurred, is something else again.
 
Upvote 0

Guy Threepwood

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2019
1,117
73
51
Midwest
✟18,520.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
But they are two separate questions, not alternatives. The theory of evolution does not speak to the existence of God, either for or against.

Yes I agree, they are not mutually exclusive - though I don't think we can entirely separate the implications one would have for the other...

Dawkins noted that 'evolution allows him to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist'- paraphrasing but that was the substance

But it is a fact. Evolution has occurred--even creationists agree to it. The theory of evolution, an explanation of the process by which that evolution occurred, is something else again.

Yes, it gets into definitions, and I agree with evolution defined as simply change over time (as again does Genesis) , Dawkins is applying 'fact' to much more than this- to specific relationships in the tree of life and common ancestry

Certainly arguments can be made for that, but if becomes obsolete, it would not be the greatest revolution known to science

the laws of classical physics were once considered so factual as to be utterly 'immutable'
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,625
81
St Charles, IL
✟347,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Yes I agree, they are not mutually exclusive - though I don't think we can entirely separate the implications one would have for the other...

Dawkins noted that 'evolution allows him to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist'- paraphrasing but that was the substance
Just as evolution "allows" one to be an intellectually fulfilled Christian--because there are no implications.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SLP
Upvote 0

Guy Threepwood

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2019
1,117
73
51
Midwest
✟18,520.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Just as evolution "allows" one to be an intellectually fulfilled Christian--because there are no implications.

I guess you'd have to argue that one with Dawkins, he obviously sees implications there- & I don't think it's a complete coincidence that the best selling book from the world's best known Darwinist - was titled 'The God Delusion'

And I don't really flatter myself as a Christian, so I can't really speak directly for them either- I'm skeptical of Darwinism first and foremost
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,625
81
St Charles, IL
✟347,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
I guess you'd have to argue that one with Dawkins, he obviously sees implications there- & I don't think it's a complete coincidence that the best selling book from the world's best known Darwinist - was titled 'The God Delusion'.
Yes, he's an atheist. Quite militant about it, too, as a consequence of the crap that's been handed him by biblical creationists. What opinion would you expect of him? In any case, Dawkins opinions are not a barrier to the acceptance of the theory of evolution by a theist.

And I don't really flatter myself as a Christian, so I can't really speak directly for them either- I'm skeptical of Darwinism first and foremost
It's always good to be skeptical of obsolete theories.
 
Upvote 0

Guy Threepwood

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2019
1,117
73
51
Midwest
✟18,520.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Yes, he's an atheist. Quite militant about it, too, as a consequence of the crap that's been handed him by biblical creationists. What opinion would you expect of him? In any case, Dawkins opinions are not a barrier to the acceptance of the theory of evolution by a theist.

It's always good to be skeptical of obsolete theories.

well between the Dawkinses and the biblical creationists, I guess most of us are somewhere in between in our beliefs? and maybe that's where the truth lies also.. and I think as long as we all acknowledge those beliefs as such- we can all get along, and even be open to changing our minds now and again?

It's when people on either side reject 'belief' and claim 'undeniable fact'- isn't that where the problems always begin?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

SLP

Senior Member
May 29, 2002
2,369
660
✟21,532.00
Faith
Atheist
Well we have one known process which can great gears (creative intelligence)

HUMAN intelligence.
we know that gears can be designed through creative agency- that is utterly unambiguous, and nobody disputes this, correct?
Yes - Humans make gears.
Bottom line: we only have one definitely known cause for such things as this
Humans.
and digital information systems
Humans.
as we see in DNA required to build those gears.
Oops - Unwarranted Extrapolation Alert! Over-extended Metaphor Alert! Analogy as Evidence Alert!


At best, all you can claim is that humans designed life and this insects gears.

Is that really your position?
 
Upvote 0

SLP

Senior Member
May 29, 2002
2,369
660
✟21,532.00
Faith
Atheist
I would argue the opposite, but neither can be definitively proven.'

So please start a thread and present this evidence for a deity. And please - no analogies, not attacks on evolution, etc. Just actual valid evidence pointing at a deity's existence.
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,625
81
St Charles, IL
✟347,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
well between the Dawkinses and the biblical creationists, I guess most of us are somewhere in between in our beliefs? and maybe that's where the truth lies also.. and I think as long as we all acknowledge those beliefs as such- we can all get along, and even be open to changing our minds now and again?

It's when people on either side reject 'belief' and claim 'undeniable fact'- isn't that where the problems always begin?
Too many straw men in that post to allow a definitive answer.
 
Upvote 0

Ophiolite

Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape
Nov 12, 2008
8,522
9,492
✟236,334.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
ideally yes, unfortunately not all scientists agree with us
"Evolution is a fact. Beyond reasonable doubt, beyond serious doubt, beyond sane, informed, intelligent doubt, beyond doubt evolution is a fact."

Richard Dawkins




Blind faith is demonstrated in the Dawkins quote, failing to recognize one's personal beliefs as such-
My attitude to Dawkins was summed up years ago on an online forum, when I declared "I wouldn't even vomit on his hamburger". Although I almost forgave him much else for "The Ancestor's Tale"

If we define deity here as intelligent creator of life, and evolution as in Darwin's theory of it,
absolutely yes, quite a bit more objective scientific evidence for the former I would submit to you!
That's just too ludicrous to respond to seriously, but if you open a thread on the matter I'll give it a go. If you choose to address it in this thread I shall take that as a message you are not serious and will ridicule it accordingly.
 
Upvote 0

Guy Threepwood

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2019
1,117
73
51
Midwest
✟18,520.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
My attitude to Dawkins was summed up years ago on an online forum, when I declared "I wouldn't even vomit on his hamburger". Although I almost forgave him much else for "The Ancestor's Tale"

that's very sporting of you!

To be honest, I was raised a staunch atheist myself, who could make Dawkins look like a moderate back in the day...

But I knew I had gone too far when people would refuse to vomit on my hamburger!


That's just too ludicrous to respond to seriously, but if you open a thread on the matter I'll give it a go. If you choose to address it in this thread I shall take that as a message you are not serious and will ridicule it accordingly.

I used to feel the same way- but I agree- it's for another thread, and I'm sure there are existing ones for that? time for lunch anyway though for some reason I've lost my appetite...:sick:
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,258
8,056
✟326,229.00
Faith
Atheist
... the laws of classical physics were once considered so factual as to be utterly 'immutable'
Then it was discovered that they are actually a limit case of Einsteinian Relativity... still perfectly adequate for most everyday purposes and sending probes around the solar system.

In a similar vein, original Darwinism has been subsumed by a more sophisticated theory, but still has explanatory power.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Astrophile
Upvote 0

Guy Threepwood

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2019
1,117
73
51
Midwest
✟18,520.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Then it was discovered that they are actually a limit case of Einsteinian Relativity... still perfectly adequate for most everyday purposes and sending probes around the solar system.


In a similar vein, original Darwinism has been subsumed by a more sophisticated theory, but still has explanatory power.

Yes, apples still fall from trees, and genetic apples still fall not far from their genetic/evolutionary 'trees' right? and in a superficial sense, they both work fine of course

But how do you explain gravity BY classical physics? how do you explain adaptation BY darwinism?

i.e. extrapolating the superficial observation into a comprehensive explanation, is not just a fallacy but an insurmountable paradox, inherent to any hierarchical information system, like physics, biology, or software

So similarly, adaptation is not an explanation or design mechanism for life, it is a necessary feature of life- not just adding more detail, it's turning the structure and assumptions entirely upside down.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,625
81
St Charles, IL
✟347,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Yes, apples still fall from trees, and genetic apples still fall not far from their genetic/evolutionary 'trees' right? and in a superficial sense, they both work fine of course
No, there is a limit to the amount of variance from the parent. The "principle of reproductive similarity" I believe is what Darwin called it. But there is no known limit to the sum of those variances over many generations.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Astrophile
Upvote 0