Some random discussion on evolution...

OldWiseGuy

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OldWiseGuy

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And complex things can only come from things that are even more complex than themselves, right?

It's not turtles all the way down. It begins and ends with God; the Alpha and Omega.
 
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pitabread

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It is to me. Elegant in the sense that complex human systems run beautifully...and quietly.

Your subjective opinion is not objective evidence for the origin of something.

So why post them?

You asked about complexity.

By the fact that anatomy is very complex. Just look at any system.

What does "very complex" mean? Again, you're not giving a measurement here.

Look, we can go 'round and 'round with this again and we're going to wind up in the same place. You either need to bring something more concrete to the table or we're just going to conclude again that you're basing your views on an emotional reaction.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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You have based your conclusions on your own personal experiences. That makes it anecdote, and since you have looked at only your own experiences, that makes it a sample size of one.

Critical thinking would tell you that relying on a single sample and anecdote is not a valid way to find the truth about anything. Therefore you have not engaged in critical thinking.

I have put forward human anatomy as my argument, not my 'anecdotal personal experiences'.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Your subjective opinion is not objective evidence for the origin of something.



You asked about complexity.



What does "very complex" mean? Again, you're not giving a measurement here.

Look, we can go 'round and 'round with this again and we're going to wind up in the same place. You either need to bring something more concrete to the table or we're just going to conclude again that you're basing your views on an emotional reaction.

Let's pose the question to you. Is human anatomy complex or not, without regard to any definition? You might also opine concerning the internal combustion engine.
 
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pitabread

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Let's pose the question to you. Is human anatomy complex or not, without regard to any definition?

How can I answer without regard to any definition? That makes no sense. :scratch:

Regardless, I don't know if it's complex. It would depend on how we were defining and measuring complexity.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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How can I answer without regard to any definition? That makes no sense. :scratch:

Regardless, I don't know if it's complex. It would depend on how we were defining and measuring complexity.

Then use your favorite measure.

If you need to fill a large blackboard with mathematical equations to explain a 'simple' organic process I'd say that's a pretty good indication of complexity, even without a definition.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Getting back the actual thread topic rather than the off topic posts.

- Light hollow bones ordered properly for flight to take place.

- Metabolic structure. Reptiles have the slowest, while Birds the fastest metabolism.

- Lung Structure. Terrestrial lungs have a two-directional flow structure. In birds however, air follows just one direction through the lungs. The structure of the lung in birds, and the functioning of the respiratory system are unique.

Actually therapods had hollow bones, their skeletons suggest a metabolic rate on par with mammals and birds and not only did they have flow-through lungs, so don't other archosaurs living today like crocodilians.
Similarity of Crocodilian and Avian Lungs Indicates Unidirectional Flow Is Ancestral for Archosaurs

- Physiological mechanisms to maintain an essentially constant body temperature.

Theropods are mesotherms.
Warm or Cold? Dinosaurs Had 'In-Between' Blood

- Feathers. From gene structure and organization, to development, morphogenesis and tissue organization, every feature is different in feathers and scales. Also the protein structure of bird feathers is unique among vertebrates.

Coelurasaurs had feathers.
First Dinosaur Tail Found Preserved in Amber

- Hip Structure. All dinosaurs fall into one of two major groups: A) "lizard-hipped" - their pubis bone is typically swept forward, B) "bird-hipped" - where the pubis juts backwards to join another bone called the ischium. However, birds are more closely related to the "lizard-hipped" dinosaurs, and would have to independently evolve the pubis bone facing backwards.

Maniraptorans evolved a bird shaped pelvis.
The Secret to Dinosaur Hip Shape
>> Among dinosaurs, the pubic bone shifted to a backwards-pointing position four times among maniraptoran dinosaurs - the group that contains favorites like Velociraptor as well as birds - and once among ornithischians. <<

- Birds have a wishbone that includes a kneeled sternum bone, which is where the muscles attach to that are critical for flight.

Non-avian theropods had wishbones.
Wishbones and Dinosaurs
>> The anatomical structure we call the wishbone in birds is formed by the fusion of the two clavicles — what we call our collarbones. This anatomical structure was long thought unique to birds. But fossil discoveries of recent decades have shown that some kinds of dinosaurs also had wishbones. In particular, those dinosaurs known as theropods: carnivorous dinosaurs that stood upright and walked — and ran — on two legs. This group includes mighty Tyrannosaurus rex, and the terrifying Velociraptors of Jurassic Park.

This means the wishbone itself dates back more than 150 million years.

And there is now wide consensus among experts that this group of dinosaurs includes the direct ancestors of modern birds. (Not only did they have wishbones but, like birds, they likely incubated their eggs, had hollow bones, and were clad in feathers.) <<

Basically your entire laundry list not a problem because they had all evolved in theropods long before birds evolved.
 
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pitabread

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Then use your favorite measure.

I suppose my favorite measure would be the number of bits required to store compressed digital information. I'm not sure how that would be applied to the human body though. :scratch:
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I suppose my favorite measure would be the number of bits required to store compressed digital information. I'm not sure how that would be applied to the human body though. :scratch:

I like it!

Just write out one of those formulas I spoke of for a single process, then repeat for all other processes, and the processes that enable other processes, etc. I'm guessing it would require a lot of space (just the super computer that would be needed would likely be rather complex).
 
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Kylie

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It's not turtles all the way down. It begins and ends with God; the Alpha and Omega.

So complex things need more complex sources - but you make an exception for God, because... reasons?

How about this - if God can be complex and not require a source, then let's say the universe - which is much less complex, surely - doesn't require a source either, okay?
 
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Kylie

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I have put forward human anatomy as my argument, not my 'anecdotal personal experiences'.

No, you said it was your own observations and critical thinking. Post 296.

You've never said, as far as I know, that you have based your conclusions on the investigations conducted by biologists and scientists who are well-trained in the scientific method.

Of course, I am happy to be proven wrong. Please show me where you have based your conclusions on the studies done by reputable scientists in relevant fields, and I will withdraw my criticisms of your position.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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So complex things need more complex sources - but you make an exception for God, because... reasons?

How about this - if God can be complex and not require a source, then let's say the universe - which is much less complex, surely - doesn't require a source either, okay?

If God has ordered the universe his mind must be more complex than all the stars and other things.
 
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pitabread

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Just write out one of those formulas I spoke of for a single process, then repeat for all other processes, and the processes that enable other processes, etc. I'm guessing it would require a lot of space (just the super computer that would be needed would likely be rather complex).

Let me know what you come up with then.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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No, you said it was your own observations and critical thinking. Post 296.

You've never said, as far as I know, that you have based your conclusions on the investigations conducted by biologists and scientists who are well-trained in the scientific method.

Of course, I am happy to be proven wrong. Please show me where you have based your conclusions on the studies done by reputable scientists in relevant fields, and I will withdraw my criticisms of your position.

I defer to those who study anatomy and write books about it. Mr. Gray for example. Are they not reputable scientists in fields relevant to my argument?

Of course they don't make their observations to support my ID point of view, but that's the (inescapable) conclusion I draw from their research.
 
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