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Some questions for Christians who accept evolution

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Audacious

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When did sin come into God’s creation and how does that relate to death and suffering in the world?
I don't care, because you can't reject facts using ideology.

If death came before sin then it wasn’t the penalty for sin. So, if there wasn’t a literal Adam who brought sin and death to God’s creation, then what was the purpose of Jesus’s sacrifice on the cross?
I don't care, because you can't reject facts using ideology.

Mark 10:6, Jesus says this, "But at the beginning of creation God made them male and female.” So here we have God incarnate telling us directly that mankind was right there at the beginning of creation. How do you reconcile that with the evolutionary idea of billions of years?
I don't care, because you can't reject facts using ideology.

The evolutionists have various hypotheses for the ultimate fate of the universe. Which one do you accept as the most likely, or is the second coming of Jesus a part of the Bible that you still accept as being the truth?
I don't care, because you can't reject facts using ideology.

Seriously though, this isn't just "the evolutionists" who think these things; rather, it's 99.9% of all scientists. People who are experts in their field, who have spent years -- sometimes decades, sometimes lifetimes -- studying these issues. It's not a bunch of random people, it's experts.

The people who support creationism are almost all just random people who are not experts, and when they are, they are experts disagreeing with practically universal scientific consensus. They're not virtuous freethinkers, daring to disagree with the status quo; they are quacks, similar to the doctors who reject the use of vaccines.

Edit: Okay, as a Christian, the first three questions do actually matter to me -- at least, how they fit into systematic theology. But they have no place in a discussion of science, because they are irrelevant to it. It is much more likely that you are misinterpreting the Bible than that, somehow, every single piece of empirical evidence we have is pointing to falsehoods.
 
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Heissonear

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We saw in the earlier posts that you are indeed trying to add a lot of stuff to your Bible. You stated specifically that the fall was due to eating fruit - I'm the one who said it was rebellion. Here is a list of some of the things that aren't in there, that you are adding:

  1. The claim that Jesus says that the Good Samaritan is a parable. Verse?
  2. The idea that there was no physical death before the fall. Verse?
  3. The idea that Adam was "perfect" before the fall. Verse?
  4. The idea that the fruit was only a physical and tangible object. (then how did it magically open their eyes, if read literally?)
  5. The idea that Adam psychically knew about death before the fall. Verse?
  6. The idea that there was no physical disease before the fall. Verse?
  7. You also take away from scripture -such as when you deleted the "of creation" from Jesus own words.
These are some examples of you changing scripture to fit your own human ideas.



Oh, that must be why I'm going by what he said, and you are cutting out the parts of his words that you don't like? Ask youself - why would you do that if you go by what Jesus said?




Yeah, like the Pope? Like Billy Graham? C. S. Lewis? All those support evolution. Like the leaders of the Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, Episcopals, Catholics, and on and on? Look, there are few and fewer churches that don't allow evolution every year. You could go join the Jehovah's Witnesses - they have always been solid in their rejection of evolution.



Have you seen all the different ways creationist sources lie to you? You've already seen that they've convinced you to add and subtract things from scripture to get you to believe man's ideas, and they make oodles of money doing so, too. It's sad to hear that you help them fleece other Christians, too.




..... But it looks like you have changed it to fit the human creationist ideas you've been taught, as shown above? Even worse, your constant suggestion that symbolic or non-literal scripture is somehow of lesser value - when our Lord and Savior Jesus taught mainly by using symbolic parables.


In Christ-

Papias
Papias,

Evolution of life never occurred on earth.

I was raised an evolutionist and majored in Geology in college.

Then the Lord Jesus through His Spirit and Word woke me up Spiritually.

I understand the details of natural physical changes on Earth over the radiometric dated 4.5 billions years, including the episodes of carbonaceous and saliceous depositions of strata and the intrusions/extrusions and history of crustal tectonics.

I've taken Paleontology in college as a evolutionist and have investigated and collected fossil bearing rocks all my life.

But life did not "evolve" on Earth.

There are no transitional fossils between species, even though there are millions upon millions of fossils and ten's of thousands of feet of vertical sedimentary strata to be examined. Isn't that strange.

There is no realistic biochemical way nor chance that DNA could have come about through molecular-building processes and the needed environmental conditions and constituents.

Your position on evolution as something the Church of Christ must "maturely" except is based on men and their interpretation of physical findings through Natuturalism.

Why do you look down on others who see this world having apparent age when Created?

May I say you still have natural history and Spiritual learning to do.

May I also say you have received something that takes belief to recieve it - it is called "things come about through evolving process". You need to go back to that place when you exercised such belief and let the Spirit of the Lord lead.
 
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eclipsenow

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"But life did not "evolve" on Earth."
And Global Warming isn't happening either: everything in your worldview is a conspiracy! What a surprise, despite thousands of Christians in the evolutionary sciences who disagree with you.

"There are no transitional fossils between species, even though there are millions upon millions off fossils and ten's of thousands of feet of vertical sedimentary strata to be examined. Isn't that strange."​

How many complete sauropod skeletons do we actually have? In other words, could this be something to do with how much of a miracle it is that we have any fossils at all?
 
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Heissonear

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I have some questions for Christians who have accepted the theory of evolution as being the truth, rather than a straightforward reading of the biblical account of creation...
  • If the Genesis account of creation isn’t true, what do you make of the following part of the ten commandments?
Exo 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days you shall labour and do all your work,
Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns.
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
  • When did sin come into God’s creation and how does that relate to death and suffering in the world?

  • If death came before sin then it wasn’t the penalty for sin. So, if there wasn’t a literal Adam who brought sin and death to God’s creation, then what was the purpose of Jesus’s sacrifice on the cross?

  • In Mark 10:6, Jesus says this, "But at the beginning of creation God made them male and female.” So here we have God incarnate telling us directly that mankind was right there at the beginning of creation. How do you reconcile that with the evolutionary idea of billions of years?

  • The evolutionists have various hypotheses for the ultimate fate of the universe. Which one do you accept as the most likely, or is the second coming of Jesus a part of the Bible that you still accept as being the truth?
Not by chance,

I've been a person who has had to change to what Genesis and the Bible says. This required complete and pure openess to Him, and to learn over again what is true verses what is error.

I've experienced repentance by heeding Grace at work within, and recovered from snares that had me trapped.

It is possible there are some on this forum with no intention to be sensitive to the Lord Jesus and repent from error through His leading to repentance.

The falling away of the Church is not abstract. False teaching is not abstract. People in deception is not abstract, even when the Bible states in numerous places to not be deceived little ones. I John 2: 26, 27 is pure instruction. Replace the word deceived with "educate", "instruct", "teach", "enlighten", etc. for how some deceive without knowing it.

If someone does not agree with us this does not mean that they do not know Him and that they are not saved. We can all error and need correction!

May the Lord bless.
 
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Not_By_Chance

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Not by chance,

I've been a person who has had to change to what Genesis and the Bible says. This required complete and pure openess to Him, and to learn over again what is true verses what is error.

I've experienced repentance by heeding Grace at work within, and recovered from snares that had me trapped.

It is possible there are some on this forum with no intention to be sensitive to the Lord Jesus and repent from error through His leading to repentance.

The falling away of the Church is not abstract. False teaching is not abstract. People in deception is not abstract, even when the Bible states in numerous places to not be deceived little ones. I John 2: 26, 27 is pure instruction. Replace the word deceived with "educate", "instruct", "teach", "enlighten", etc. for how some deceive without knowing it.

If someone does not agree with us this does not mean that they do not know Him and that they are not saved. We can all error and need correction!

May the Lord bless.
I quite agree, it's not about whether one is saved or not and someone can believe in evolution and still be saved. However, I think that a straightforward reading of the Bible without any input from the evolutionary story would not indicate anything about long ages to the reader. Also, I don't think it's fair to label all creation scientists as "quacks, similar to the doctors who reject the use of vaccines" or simply non-experts as per one of the posts above, just because they don't go with the flow. Some of these people are extremely intelligent (you only have to read Dr Morris's book on the Genesis Flood to realise that) and are clearly very dedicated to their studies of the Bible and yet they have come to totally different conclusions about what the Holy Scriptures are trying to tell us. That doesn't necessarily mean they are wrong or that they deserve to be given insulting labels. It just means that they have reached different conclusions. From my own viewpoint, I am happy to accept the Bible as it is written and I am happy with the conclusions that the creation scientists put forward in support of it. If others want to accept evolutionary ideas that's fine by me.
 
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Not_By_Chance

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"But life did not "evolve" on Earth."
And Global Warming isn't happening either: everything in your worldview is a conspiracy! What a surprise, despite thousands of Christians in the evolutionary sciences who disagree with you.

"There are no transitional fossils between species, even though there are millions upon millions off fossils and ten's of thousands of feet of vertical sedimentary strata to be examined. Isn't that strange."​

How many complete sauropod skeletons do we actually have? In other words, could this be something to do with how much of a miracle it is that we have any fossils at all?
We only have fossils because of the flood that God brought about in the times of Noah. The fossils that we do have don't necessarily prove evolution as Dr John Morris PhD notes, "Certainly the fossil record does not prove evolution. On the other hand, its character fully supports creation of multiple "kinds" at the start with no evolutionary lineage, and continuance of those rather static kinds with limited adaptations into the present, or else going extinct. This is the creation idea." Full text here http://www.icr.org/article/dont-fossils-prove-evolution/

I for one don't believe everything is a conspiracy by any stretch of the imagination OR deny global warming. You see how easy it is to make false assumptions or spread falsehoods (unless of course you were just joking or have I actually missed the point you were trying to criticise in Heissonear's original post?).
 
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lasthero

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We only have fossils because of the flood that God brought about in the times of Noah. The fossils that we do have don't necessarily prove evolution as Dr John Morris PhD notes, "Certainly the fossil record does not prove evolution. On the other hand, its character fully supports creation of multiple "kinds" at the start with no evolutionary lineage, and continuance of those rather static kinds with limited adaptations into the present, or else going extinct. This is the creation idea."

What's a kind?
 
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Not_By_Chance

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lasthero

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Not_By_Chance

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This doesn't actually answer the question. It provides some speculation, but I don't see a solid definition.

What's a kind? What objective criteria do you have that would determine whether two animals belong to the same kind or not?
You will have to ask God for a definitive answer (perhaps a question for Him in the afterlife?) for they are His classifications. What's a species by the way - I've heard that there's no general consensus on that either - is that correct? Note: the Oxford dictionary defines "kind" as "a group of people or things that are the same in some way; a particular variety or type:" Barnes Bible commentary has this to say about Kinds, "
After its kind. - This phrase intimates that like produces like, and therefore that the “kinds” or species are fixed, and do not run into one another. In this little phrase the theory of one species being developed from another is denied." I'll have a look in Dr Morris's commentary in my Defenders Bible to see if that sheds any more light on this.
 
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TLK Valentine

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This doesn't actually answer the question. It provides some speculation, but I don't see a solid definition.

Probably because no such definition is there -- just a lot of doubletalk.

What's a kind? What objective criteria do you have that would determine whether two animals belong to the same kind or not?

*crickets*
 
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TLK Valentine

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You will have to ask God for a definitive answer (perhaps a question for Him in the afterlife?) for they are His classifications.

Then why did you try to distract us with a meaningless web link? Why not just say this first?
 
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Loudmouth

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I quite agree, it's not about whether one is saved or not and someone can believe in evolution and still be saved. However, I think that a straightforward reading of the Bible without any input from the evolutionary story would not indicate anything about long ages to the reader. Also, I don't think it's fair to label all creation scientists as "quacks, similar to the doctors who reject the use of vaccines" or simply non-experts as per one of the posts above, just because they don't go with the flow. Some of these people are extremely intelligent (you only have to read Dr Morris's book on the Genesis Flood to realise that) and are clearly very dedicated to their studies of the Bible and yet they have come to totally different conclusions about what the Holy Scriptures are trying to tell us. That doesn't necessarily mean they are wrong or that they deserve to be given insulting labels. It just means that they have reached different conclusions. From my own viewpoint, I am happy to accept the Bible as it is written and I am happy with the conclusions that the creation scientists put forward in support of it. If others want to accept evolutionary ideas that's fine by me.

I would suggest reading this essay by Francis Collins, a Christian and geneticist.

"Professor Darrel Falk has recently pointed out that one should not take the view that young-earth creationism is simply tinkering around the edges of science. If the tenets of young earth creationism were true, basically all of the sciences of geology, cosmology, and biology would utterly collapse. It would be the same as saying 2 plus 2 is actually 5. The tragedy of young-earth creationism is that it takes a relatively recent and extreme view of Genesis, applies to it an unjustified scientific gloss, and then asks sincere and well-meaning seekers to swallow this whole, despite the massive discordance with decades of scientific evidence from multiple disciplines. Is it any wonder that many sadly turn away from faith concluding that they cannot believe in a God who asks for an abandonment of logic and reason?"
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2003/PSCF9-03Collins.pdf
 
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SkyWriting

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I have some questions for Christians who have accepted the theory of evolution as being the truth, rather than a straightforward reading of the biblical account of creation.

Most of the theory can be tested. There is a tiny sliver relating to origins that is just mythology or Science-Fiction.

Creation happened before time began when Adam sinned. God choose to call them "days" just for our benefit
even though a couple of them occurred before any stars were created.
 
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lasthero

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You will have to ask God for a definitive answer (perhaps a question for Him in the afterlife?) for they are His classifications.

I'm asking you. God's not the one using it as the crux of his argument, you are. If you don't know, you can't use it as part of your argument. Otherwise, it just becomes something you can use to move the goalpost indefinitely. Without a solid definition, no matter what evolution i present, you can always say it's not a 'new kind'. And without a rigid definition, there no way to dispute it.

What's a species by the way - I've heard that there's no general consensus on that either - is that correct?

I could get into that, but I hardly see the point. This happens a lot when I ask creationists what a kind is - they start talking about the species problem. Even if the definition of species were the vaguest term ever, that fact alone hardly makes the definition of kind any less vague, does it?


Note: the Oxford dictionary defines "kind" as "a group of people or things that are the same in some way; a particular variety or type:"

If that's the way you want to go, ANYTHING can be the same kind as any other thing. All life is similar in at least some way.

Barnes Bible commentary has this to say about Kinds, "
After its kind. - This phrase intimates that like produces like, and therefore that the “kinds” or species are fixed, and do not run into one another. In this little phrase the theory of one species being developed from another is denied."

We've observed new species being made.
 
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DogmaHunter

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These are some great questions :)

I have some questions for Christians who have accepted the theory of evolution as being the truth, rather than a straightforward reading of the biblical account of creation...
  • If the Genesis account of creation isn’t true, what do you make of the following part of the ten commandments?
Exo 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days you shall labour and do all your work,
Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns.
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Well, I'ld say that it makes these sentences kind of non-sensical. Arbitrary at best.
  • When did sin come into God’s creation and how does that relate to death and suffering in the world?

It didn't and it doesn't.
  • If death came before sin then it wasn’t the penalty for sin. So, if there wasn’t a literal Adam who brought sin and death to God’s creation, then what was the purpose of Jesus’s sacrifice on the cross?

There was no purpose since there indeed was no "fall". You don't need any saving if there is nothing to be saved from......

  • In Mark 10:6, Jesus says this, "But at the beginning of creation God made them male and female.” So here we have God incarnate telling us directly that mankind was right there at the beginning of creation. How do you reconcile that with the evolutionary idea of billions of years?

One doesn't reconcile it... Just like one doesn't reconcile any of the thousands of creation myths of competing religions...

So you can conclude several things from this:
- the book is just wrong and "god incarnate" didn't say that
- the book is correct but when "god incarnate" said that - he was lying
- the book is wrong and there is no "god incarnate".

  • The evolutionists have various hypotheses for the ultimate fate of the universe. Which one do you accept as the most likely, or is the second coming of Jesus a part of the Bible that you still accept as being the truth?

Biological evolution has nothing whatsoever to say about the fate of the universe.
That would be physics/cosmology.

And based on what we know today about the universe, it will suffer heath death and become a cold black place with ghost planets orbitting dead stars.
 
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eclipsenow

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The falling away of the Church is not abstract. False teaching is not abstract. People in deception is not abstract,
Are trees of the field clapping their hands 'abstract' (or non-literal?)
Is Jesus having 7 horns and 7 eyes 'abstract' (or non-literal?)
The bible uses metaphors and creative narratives as well as autobiography and historical narrative.
The trick is knowing which genre of literary style is being used when.

If someone does not agree with us this does not mean that they do not know Him and that they are not saved. We can all error and need correction!
Brother, I'm genuinely glad that at least we agree on this!

What I'd love to ask Creationists, is just how literally do they actually take Genesis? From a lecturer at Moore Bible College, Sydney.

Creation Science wants to claim that it takes the Bible literally and alternative approaches don’t (they don’t take literally things that disagree with science), and so it can claim to be the right position fairly easily.

The problem is that, as far as I can see, Creation Science doesn’t take things literally, but shies away from literal readings of things that disagree with those bits of science that they accept.

The most well known example is probably the second day of creation:

Genesis 1:6-8 Then God said, "Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters." And God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. And God called the expanse heaven.
A literal reading of this isn’t hard to see. The cosmos is full of water, and to create the space for land to appear God first creates an expanse (or firmament, the word suggests a physical barrier) that separates the waters that were below from the waters above. This physical barrier is called heaven.

Then dry land appears on the third day when God gathers the waters under the expanse and locks them into fixed locations—oceans, seas, lakes etc, and so dry land appears.

So the literal picture is of a universe full of water where God creates a space for earth to exist. One suspects that that fits neatly with the fact that we see blue when we look up—we’re looking at the water on the other side of the barrier, heaven.

If, however, science calls the shots, then that is nonsense. And so Creation Scientists will, when pushed, read this non-literally. It is a metaphor (or ‘poetic’). The most common suggestion I’ve heard is that pre-Flood the earth was covered in a permanent blanket of thick clouds. It’s a strained reading (and is strange science. Unless they think physical laws changed with the Flood, why wouldn’t this cloud cover build up again after the Flood?) Their exegesis at this point is hard to understand, unless they draw back from readings of Scripture that they are fairly sure don’t square with the world as they know it. In fact, 2 Peter seems fairly straightforwardly to read Genesis the way I've suggested:

2 Peter 3:5-7 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water...

The earth was formed out of water and by water. This suggests water being more significant to Genesis 1’s picture of creation than the idea of a thick cloud cover above the earth.

And this world in the midst of water makes much better sense of the Flood:

Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the floodgates of the sky were opened.
The barriers that made a division between water above and water below and water below and dry land and are taken away. The water pours in and covers the land:

Genesis 7:18-20 And the water prevailed and increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark floated on the surface of the water. And the water prevailed more and more upon the earth, so that all the high mountains everywhere under the heavens were covered. The water prevailed fifteen cubits higher, and the mountains were covered.
Two things I want to point out here. First, the amount of water involved in covering every mountain on the earth is far in excess of the amount of water that we are, pretty sure, exists on the planet. Speculations (such as I’ve heard by Creation Scientists) that what happened was a lot of water coming together into a series of large tidal wave-like phenomena are not what the text is saying, it’s another fudge. The text is painting a picture of constant rain and water coming out of the depths of the earth covering the land, not of a periodic wave smashing everything to bits. That’s why the waters subside over a long period of time rather than waves just ceasing. And how the ark would survive waves like that is beyond me—at that point you’d have to leave science behind again and suggest another miracle to preserve the wooden ship (which then raises the question of why a ship at all?).
http://reflectionsinexile.blogspot.com.au/2007/11/problems-with-creation-science-ii-on_21.html
 
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