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Since that time, God has not hesitated to bring me back to Himself when I'd start to wander, and guided me, intimately, to the truth I wanted to deny for many years.
of God being the author and finisher of our faith, of Christ when he said "It is finished", leaving me with no option but to believe that HE grants me faith, HE saves me and HE keeps me safe so that nothing can ever separate me from him. He does it all.
There is still a way Calvinism can be expressed in your testimony.
There is not a way arminianism can be expressed in mine.
The direct answer is yes and no. Yes we do exactly as God has determined beforehand to be done and no we do not always follow what He has revealed as righteous in the Law. We sin but God has perfect control over that sin and uses it for His purposes.
No God predetermines everything all the time.So, correct me if I am wrong: God predetermines sin (sometimes) in the converted, yet he always predetermines the perfect quantity of preaching from the converted?
I am trying to clarify... Many thanks...
What you espouse here is Wesleyan Arminianism. He called it prevenient grace. The problem with it is that you still have the logical conclusion that you save yourself and are in control. God starts it but you finish it. More than that you seem to think you can twist God's arm with prayer. Add to that the difficulty that you run into when you say that God doesn't judge you for your sin. That simply isn't Scriptural. I know that the answer you think is that He judges for unbelief but is not unbelief a sin that Christ died for? If He didn't then you are left with the result that Christ didn't actually cover all your sin.Dear A New Dawn,
Let me explain further my beliefs, and why I am against Calvinism...
I, and some Arminians believe: First it ALL starts with God. God gives us grace. He gives us grace as his Holy Spirit in conviction of sin. This happens to the whole world. God gives more grace to some people and less to others. It's all about a kind of tug of war, God pulling us (weakly, not full strength) to ourselves, and we either give in or fight his drawing of Himself to us. It ALWAYS starts with Him. In times of revival in the past such as under Jonathan Edwards or Charles Finney, that drawing from God was very very strong and hard to resist, however God never forced anyone. If a person is being prayed for day and night by a strong Christian, the force of God will be quite strong but never strong enough as to take over our wills completely. We must yield to Him ultimately. Remember the parable of the talents... some received more and increased it (their choice!, they increased the grace of God!), whereas the one who received little, did nothing (likewise their choice, even though they had little grace to go on, the voice of God drawing them was faint.) In fact the God could remove his voice to be so faint that hardly anyone would be saved at all, yet he would still hold us accountable for not responding to his grace. Suppose you had died in your sins, before the time God did His work in you? You would still have been accountable before God, because your formally rejected him. The same goes for myself and all of us! But God gave us more grace, more drawing of Himself, in His kindness, and we responded out of our own free-will. He did not make our final decision as well... Jesus does not condemn anyone because of sin any more as he came to save. However our rejection of Him will condemn us on the last day when we die (John 12:48) if we did not at some point accept Him.
This was the grace of God! I agree. Praise God!
God kept at you, kept on your case. But it was your final decision to respond. Remember the parable of the talents...
No, there is not, because it rules out the final response to God's grace that I testified to. We work together WITH God!...
Yes there is! God kept on your case, until you finally responded to His grace out of your own free-will... through faith in Him...
No God predetermines everything all the time.
We are the light of the world. We are Christ's Ambassadors here. We have been given authority over the enemy. A righteous man's prayer is powerful and effective. This is not twisting God's arm. This is absolutely scriptural. I think you know the verses I am referring to. Otherwise I will post them... What you are saying is a major major problem with Calvinism. God's Will is simplyly NOT done on earth. Sin is NOT the Will of God. Granted, he does permit it, under perhaps his "permissive will", but it is not his ultimate will. His will is not done on earth as it is in heaven. That is what we are to pray for. Calvinism is so unscriptural. I could go on and on and doubtless there would be a war on scriptures which would never end... However at the moment I am just trying to clarify things, as Calvinism appears extremely inconsistent to me. Hyper-Calvinism seems much more consistent!More than that you seem to think you can twist God's arm with prayer.
Add to that the difficulty that you run into when you say that God doesn't judge you for your sin. That simply isn't Scriptural.
Jesus did not die for our lack of belief. The work of the cross just reversed the sin of Adam. I hesitate to use the word "just" as it was a very great work including ALL sin which is immense, but it did not include faith in Jesus, as that was not a "sin" of Adam. In fact faith in Jesus was not available to Adam......is not unbelief a sin that Christ died for?
Dear A New Dawn,
Let me explain further my beliefs, and why I am against Calvinism...
I, and some Arminians believe: First it ALL starts with God. God gives us grace. He gives us grace as his Holy Spirit in conviction of sin. This happens to the whole world. God gives more grace to some people and less to others. It's all about a kind of tug of war, God pulling us (weakly, not full strength) to ourselves, and we either give in or fight his drawing of Himself to us. It ALWAYS starts with Him. In times of revival in the past such as under Jonathan Edwards or Charles Finney, that drawing from God was very very strong and hard to resist, however God never forced anyone. If a person is being prayed for day and night by a strong Christian, the force of God will be quite strong but never strong enough as to take over our wills completely. We must yield to Him ultimately. Remember the parable of the talents... some received more and increased it (their choice!, they increased the grace of God!), whereas the one who received little, did nothing (likewise their choice, even though they had little grace to go on, the voice of God drawing them was faint.) In fact the God could remove his voice to be so faint that hardly anyone would be saved at all, yet he would still hold us accountable for not responding to his grace. Suppose you had died in your sins, before the time God did His work in you? You would still have been accountable before God, because your formally rejected him. The same goes for myself and all of us! But God gave us more grace, more drawing of Himself, in His kindness, and we responded out of our own free-will. He did not make our final decision as well... Jesus does not condemn anyone because of sin any more as he came to save. However our rejection of Him will condemn us on the last day when we die (John 12:48) if we did not at some point accept Him.
This was the grace of God! I agree. Praise God!
God kept at you, kept on your case. But it was your final decision to respond. Remember the parable of the talents...
No, there is not, because it rules out the final response to God's grace that I testified to. We work together WITH God!...
Yes there is! God kept on your case, until you finally responded to His grace out of your own free-will... through faith in Him...
More than 20 years ago, as a teenager, I came (independently) under a general conviction of sin, and a sense of lack of desire for God.. As I confessed this to God, I felt he accepted me.
So you are suggesting that God does not know will happen to his own creation? That He cannot see from beginning to end? God knows all. God is intimately involved in our lives. To suggest otherwise is not even a Christian thought. It devolves to deism.Suppose you had died in your sins, before the time God did His work in you?
Of course. I am afraid I don't get what you intend by perfect preaching I suppose. You seem to be using it as though it were something special. The only perfect preaching is that which is done by the Spirit through the faulty mind and mouth of a man.So, God predetermines whatever a converted person does, be it sin or anything good, yet he always predetermines the perfect quantity of preaching from the converted, and never predetermines a lack of preaching from the converted?
We are the light of the world. We are Christ's Ambassadors here. We have been given authority over the enemy. A righteous man's prayer is powerful and effective. This is not twisting God's arm. This is absolutely scriptural. I think you know the verses I am referring to. Otherwise I will post them... What you are saying is a major major problem with Calvinism. God's Will is simplyly NOT done on earth. Sin is NOT the Will of God. Granted, he does permit it, under perhaps his "permissive will", but it is not his ultimate will. His will is not done on earth as it is in heaven. That is what we are to pray for. Calvinism is so unscriptural. I could go on and on and doubtless there would be a war on scriptures which would never end... However at the moment I am just trying to clarify things, as Calvinism appears extremely inconsistent to me. Hyper-Calvinism seems much more consistent!
Yes it is!
John 3:17
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
John 12:47-48
47 If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.
So, we can see that salvation/judgement is based on faith (accepting Jesus) alone. Of course a changed heart will result from faith...
God's drawing -> faith -> works
Jesus did not die for our lack of belief. The work of the cross just reversed the sin of Adam. I hesitate to use the word "just" as it was a very great work including ALL sin which is immense, but it did not include faith in Jesus, as that was not a "sin" of Adam. In fact faith in Jesus was not available to Adam...
Skala,
I don't think Arminians have a problem with limited election (which is to an Armeinian conditional, and limited based on God's foreknowledge.) We make a distinction between election and atonement however. Atonement is for all, but effectively conditional upon our choice in receiving Christ (not works but faith, which Abraham was accredited with, and is opposed to works salvation.) Atonement for all + faith = elect. We are simply attempting to take 1 Tim 4:10 at face value without any twisting of words or reading into it...
"...have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers"
But there is also the practical side: If we look at from the perspective that ALL have been atoned for (at least in some sense), the feeling is that God has not really set a limit, rather we set the limit. It gives a more positive outlook in evangelism. So it is more like limited election, limited by us!
Dear Lindart:
He said, "But our choices are controlled and ordained by a sovereign God who has determined everything that comes to pass."
Do you really think that is beautiful? Do we have no real choice in life?
Caleb.
I was talking of my decision independent of being raised in a Christian family, not independent of God, sorry for the confusion.Why do you assume that it was "independently"?
What makes you think that it was not God leading you to that conviction.
I'd say it was God who convicted you at a time when HE knew you would respond to the call and dragged you to himself.
And although it was a choice, you were powerless to do otherwise.
I was arguing that since even in Arminianism some people are born into the world as the elect, it makes perfect sense that Christ would come to make perfect atonement for those people (and those people only).
To give the right impression, that the "elect" (though known from eternity), are chosen because of a common sacrifice/grace for all, and their OWN acceptance of that sacrifice and grace. God would not be giving the right impression (and thus an excuse for the unrepentant), if it looked like he had pre-selected people...Why is he atoning for the non-elect, in Arminianism? What is he trying to accomplish?
No, God sends His rain on the just and the unjust. As most of the OT verses have a spiritual interpretation as types for the Kingdom, I believe this also means He sends His grace, voice (even if faint) to all people (Rom 10:17-18). It was not because He knew I would respond. That is bad theology. He gives His grace to respond to ALL people regardless (some more and some less, but not depending on their goodness)... Otherwise His grace is based on our goodness (or our predetermined goodness).
I have got to say that is non-sense. God would not create a world full of robots who are powerless to choose. If you were God would you want that? He may as well make the rocks cry out, and forget about making humanity at all! Think about it...
You must take the scriptures at face value: What impression was Paul trying to give when he wrote:
Rom 2:8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
What was his tone as he said that? Was it predestination? I think not...
But the Bible teaches both 1) God is sovereign 2) Men make choices and are held accountable for those choices.
I'd say it was God who convicted you at a time when HE knew you would respond to the call and dragged you to himself.
For all this you are still stuck with the dilemma of you saving yourself and being in control in your system of theology. When you can answer that I will answer the rest of the post.
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