Limited atonement !

[Brightfame52]

They that are Called !

The Lord Jesus Christ didn't come nor die to save all mankind, but only for them which are called Heb 9:15

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

There is a called people that Christ came specifically to taste death for, and bring them into their eternal inheritance. In the original its they which are " the called" with the definite article.

These are the same ones called here Rom 8:30

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified

Rom 9:24

Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

1 Cor 1:9

God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Pet 2:9

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Remember those in 1 Peter had been redeemed by the blood of Christ 1 Pet 1:18-19 and they were going to obtain an inheritance 1 Pet 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by

the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

This is the same inheritance written of in Heb 9:15 coming to them by means of His death.

 

[zoidar]

They that are Called !

The Lord Jesus Christ didn't come nor die to save all mankind, but only for them which are called Heb 9:15

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

There is a called people that Christ came specifically to taste death for, and bring them into their eternal inheritance. In the original its they which are " the called" with the definite article.

These are the same ones called here Rom 8:30

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified

Rom 9:24

Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

1 Cor 1:9

God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Pet 2:9

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Remember those in 1 Peter had been redeemed by the blood of Christ 1 Pet 1:18-19 and they were going to obtain an inheritance 1 Pet 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by

the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

This is the same inheritance written of in Heb 9:15 coming to them by means of His death.

Instead of dealing with the verses presented you jump to new verses that seemingly (with the wrong interpretation) fit your standpoint better...

 

[Brightfame52]

Instead of dealing with the verses presented you jump to new verses that seemingly (with the wrong interpretation) fit your standpoint better...

You deal with your own verses, Im not here to help you make a point with verses you dont understand yourself. You the one evading my points. Now you exegete each verse you bring up and explain how they contradict Limited atonement which I took time to explain.

 

[zoidar]

You deal with your own verses, Im not here to help you make a point with verses you dont understand yourself. You the one evading my points. Now you exegete each verse you bring up and explain how they contradict Limited atonement which I took time to explain.

You are the most undebatable debater I ever met on this forum. I have posted verses proving you wrong, then you tell me to exegete the verses. I'm simply showing you where you misunderstand a verse, that's all I'm doing. From there you should by yourself get to the right understanding. But by all means ...

Let's take:
There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
— John 1:9-12

I even underlined it for you. If "His own" is the Church, then the Church did not receive Jesus. So that is clearly the wrong understanding. So we see "His own" must be speaking of the Jews since it is they who rejected Jesus. If "His own" are the Jews then it's just one step away from seeing "His people" might also refer to the Jews.

Then we go to:
“Now Lord, You are releasing Your bond-servant to depart in peace,
According to Your word;
For my eyes have seen Your salvation,
Which You have prepared in the presence of all peoples,
A Light of revelation to the Gentiles,
And the glory of Your people Israel.”
— Luke 2:29-32

Here it is talking about peoples, plural. So Gentiles are one people and "Your people" is one people. "Your people" can therefore not refer to His elect. Because it can not speak about two peoples if it is the Gentiles and the elect, since many Gentiles are also of the elect. So from there we see it must speak of the Gentiles and "Your people" here must refer to the other people than the Gentiles, which is the Jews.

Then it all fits together when Matthew 1:21 also refers to the Jews when it says "His people". From there on you will have to make your own conclusion. What does it mean that "His people" refers to the Jewish nation rather than the elect? Even it's not directly proving limited atonement wrong, the verse shouldn't be used the wrong way, as a support of unconditional election or limited atonement.

She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
— Matthew 1:21

 

[Brightfame52]

Christ death wasn't for all mankind, but for those whom He perfected forever who were the sanctified. Heb 10:14

14 For by one offering[His death] he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

These are the ones God the Father chose in Christ before the foundation and so they were sanctified in Him Eph 1:4

4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Jude 1:1

Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called

Furthermore Christs death/offering of Himself for them, sanctified them Heb 10:10

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Because His death took away our sins ! Now can this be said of all mankind ? Can this be said of the world of the reprobate which is condemned ? 1 Cor 11:32

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Were they ever sanctified by God the Father or by the death of Christ ? I say God forbid, No

 

[Brightfame52]

You are the most undebatable debater I ever met on this forum. I have posted verses proving you wrong, then you tell me to exegete the verses. I'm simply showing you where you misunderstand a verse, that's all I'm doing. From there you should by yourself get to the right understanding. But by all means ...

Let's take:
There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
— John 1:9-12

I even underlined it for you. If "His own" is the Church, then the Church did not receive Jesus. So that is clearly the wrong understanding. So we see "His own" must be speaking of the Jews since it is they who rejected Jesus. If "His own" are the Jews then it's just one step away from seeing "His people" might also refer to the Jews.

Then we go to:
“Now Lord, You are releasing Your bond-servant to depart in peace,
According to Your word;
For my eyes have seen Your salvation,
Which You have prepared in the presence of all peoples,
A Light of revelation to the Gentiles,
And the glory of Your people Israel.”
— Luke 2:29-32

Here it is talking about peoples, plural. So Gentiles are one people and "Your people" is one people. "Your people" can therefore not refer to His elect. Because it can not speak about two peoples if it is the Gentiles and the elect, since many Gentiles are also of the elect. So from there we see it must speak of the Gentiles and "Your people" here must refer to the other people than the Gentiles, which is the Jews.

Then it all fits together when Matthew 1:21 also refers to the Jews when it says "His people". From there on you will have to make your own conclusion. What does it mean that "His people" refers to the Jewish nation rather than the elect? Even it's not directly proving limited atonement wrong, the verse shouldn't be used the wrong way, as a support of unconditional election or limited atonement.

She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
— Matthew 1:21

Debating isn't me answering all the scripture you can muster up, you trying to get out of work and force others to do it, how is that debating when you put no effort into anything. Now all the scripture you cite says nothing against limited atonement, Christ exclusively/explicitly died for His Sheep Jn 10 or His Church Eph 5:25 So its easy for me to understand all other references to His death and people yield to what is explicitly stated. So His People in Matt 1:21 is easily His Church of Eph 5:25 duh

 

[zoidar]

Debating isn't me answering all the scripture you can muster up, you trying to get out of work and force others to do it, how is that debating when you put no effort into anything. Now all the scripture you cite says nothing against limited atonement, Christ exclusively/explicitly died for His Sheep Jn 10 or His Church Eph 5:25 So its easy for me to understand all other references to His death and people yield to what is explicitly stated. So His People in Matt 1:21 is easily His Church of Eph 5:25 duh

Ok, so you discard all the proof I presented and instead go to Eph 5:25 and superimpose it on Matt 1:21? Eph 5:25 is not even of the four Gospels. Why not start with understanding Matt 1:21 first?

 

[Brightfame52]

Ok, so you discard all the proof I presented and instead go to Eph 5:25 and superimpose it on Matt 1:21? Eph 5:25 is not even of the four Gospels. Why not start with understanding Matt 1:21 first?

Im simply interpreting who Christ died for by explicit wording as Jn 10 and Eph 5:25 provided. Why would the people be different anywhere else ? Can you explain that ?

 

[zoidar]

Im simply interpreting who Christ died for by explicit wording as Jn 10 and Eph 5:25 provided. Why would the people be different anywhere else ? Can you explain that ?

Why? you say. They wouldn't, but even if you are right that Eph 5:25 teaches limited atonement, you should read Matt 1:21 from it's original setting. Otherwise you are starting with the conclusion of limited atonement and fitting every verse into it, rather than letting each passage speak first on its own. Also your might be wrong about you initial conclusion of John 10 and Eph 5:25. How are you to see that if you don't read passages by their own terms and context?

 

[Brightfame52]

Why? you say. They wouldn't, but even if you are right that Eph 5:25 teaches limited atonement, you should read Matt 1:21 from it's original setting. Otherwise you are starting with the conclusion of limited atonement and fitting every verse into it, rather than letting each passage speak first on its own. Also your might be wrong about you initial conclusion of John 10 and Eph 5:25. How are you to see that if you don't read passages by their own terms and context?

I did read Matt 1:21 from its original setting, that is how I found out He came specifically to save His People, not all mankind

 

[zoidar]

I did read Matt 1:21 from its original setting, that is how I found out He came specifically to save His People, not all mankind

From the original setting the message is to Joseph, a Jew and the Church had not yet been formed. The child, Jesus is born into the nation of Israel. What comes more natural from this setting, "His people" being the Jews or "His people" being the Church, the elect?

 

[David Lamb]

From the original setting the message is to Joseph, a Jew and the Church had not yet been formed. The child, Jesus is born into the nation of Israel. What comes more natural from this setting, "His people" being the Jews or "His people" being the Church, the elect?

But the point is what God's word means by "His people," not what Joseph might have understood it to mean. Jesus talked about His people as His sheep:

“"The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.” (Joh 10:13-16 NKJV)

Jesus didn't come to save only Jews.

 

[Brightfame52]

From the original setting the message is to Joseph, a Jew and the Church had not yet been formed. The child, Jesus is born into the nation of Israel. What comes more natural from this setting, "His people" being the Jews or "His people" being the Church, the elect?

Doesnt really matter what country one lives in or ethnicity to be a sinner Christ came to save, His people are people from all ethnicities and nations

Rev 5

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Dont get caught up on salvation based on race, thats a denial of Grace Salvation and makes God respect of persons because of ethnicity.

 

[zoidar]

But the point is what God's word means by "His people," not what Joseph might have understood it to mean. Jesus talked about His people as His sheep:

“"The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.” (Joh 10:13-16 NKJV)

You mean we should understand the phrase "His people" in Matt 1:21 outside the OT context? Why? Especially when we consider Matt 2:6 and Luke 2:32. At that time the elect people were the Jews and there was no Church.

Jesus didn't come to save only Jews.

Well, Jesus did first come to save only the Jews (Matt 15:24). First after the crucifixion the scope of salvation expands to all men (John 12:32).

But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
— Matthew 15:24

And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
— John 12:32

 

[David Lamb]

You mean we should understand the phrase "His people" in Matt 1:21 outside the OT context? Why? Especially when we consider Matt 2:6 and Luke 2:32. At that time the elect people were the Jews and there was no Church.

Well, Jesus did first come to save only the Jews (Matt 15:24). First after the crucifixion the scope of salvation expands to all men (John 12:32).

But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
— Matthew 15:24

And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
— John 12:32

But if "His people" means "the Jews", why were not all Jews saved?

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Jesus mentioned the sheep and the goats, separation to right and left. Paul the apostle was a goat that God made an exception for. He had to see Heaven before really hearing the prophets. On the Road to Damascus, he saw the light and repented from the murder of Stephen.

Some of His people had already died centuries before and were in pain.

In the story of the rich man and Lazarus, only when seeing the afterlife would the rich man change his mind.

Anyone can be saved.

In Romans 8:29 we read of God foreknowing whoever it will be who respond to grace, as so choosing some from before this world was. In Genesis 6 God is remorseful about creating man, except for Noah and his family. This foreknowing is also in Exodus, in which God tells Moses, He foreknows what Pharaoh will do, then later He says built on the first verse, that He will harden his heart.

In the Gospel, Jesus invites select people to the wedding banquet, but in the end has to take in the lame... and later Paul leaves the Jews and goes to the gentiles. He could prophesy and receive knowledge, he could find the elect, if there was such a people, but they are determined by hearing grace and truth and by their response.

If Jesus' blood falls on someone while they sleep or are drinking and dancing, they may inadvertently harden their hearts. But if they hear their secret thoughts revealed, maybe some sins or the aspirations of their consciences, and of's love and promises, they will likely soften their hearts. Pharaoh missed his chance to repent or receive grace. He was not born into the Hebrews, and knew of but rejected their God... But in the resurrection, he was a captive led captive and given gifts.

 

[David Lamb]

Jesus mentioned the sheep and the goats, separation to right and left. Paul the apostle was a goat that God made an exception for. He had to see Heaven before really hearing the prophets. On the Road to Damascus, he saw the light and repented from the murder of Stephen.

Some of His people had already died centuries before and were in pain.

In the story of the rich man and Lazarus, only when seeing the afterlife would the rich man change his mind.

Anyone can be saved.

In Romans 8:29 we read of God foreknowing whoever it will be who respond to grace, as so choosing some from before this world was. In Genesis 6 God is remorseful about creating man, except for Noah and his family. This foreknowing is also in Exodus, in which God tells Moses, He foreknows what Pharaoh will do, then later He says built on the first verse, that He will harden his heart.

In the Gospel, Jesus invites select people to the wedding banquet, but in the end has to take in the lame... and later Paul leaves the Jews and goes to the gentiles. He could prophesy and receive knowledge, he could find the elect, if there was such a people, but they are determined by hearing grace and truth and by their response.

If Jesus' blood falls on someone while they sleep or are drinking and dancing, they may inadvertently harden their hearts. But if they hear their secret thoughts revealed, maybe some sins or the aspirations of their consciences, and of's love and promises, they will likely soften their hearts. Pharaoh missed his chance to repent or receive grace. He was not born into the Hebrews, and knew of but rejected their God... But in the resurrection, he was a captive led captive and given gifts.

Where in the bible are we told that goats change into sheep, or that Paul was a goat that God made an exception for?

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

All infants and small children who die are well received and have the Kingdom. Luke 18:16,17, Luke 9:48, Matthew 10:40-42
Only as they get older do they make decisions that lead to Hell. Example, Pharaoh and his firstborn. Adolph Hitler is lost. Pharaoh would now have life.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Where in the bible are we told that goats change into sheep, or that Paul was a goat that God made an exception for?

Matthew 25 KJV
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Saul of Tarsus was a murder, even focusing on early Christians and described himself as being born some other way. Only when taken out of this world would he repent. Having gone blind in the process.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

All infants and small children who die are well received and have the Kingdom. Luke 18:16,17, Luke 9:48, Matthew 10:40-42 and 1 Timothy 4:10

This disproves Augustine, Calvin and Arminius on predestiny, as it is sure from scripture, and NDEs that people do not have to be baptised or else end in Hell.