Some are not going to feel comfortable

[Avniel]

I think he should be able to do what he wants. If he gets pulled over, unless he is doing something wrong then he shouldn't have anything to worry about except deal with the aggravation of it.

Yeah not to mention embarrassment and if he gets upset he has a slight chance to be physically assaulted by the police. The black community as a whole has no trust in the police for this reason. I was robbed at gun point and I never called the police I am a productive member of society and I fear the police.

 

[Avniel]

That being said I wouldn't advise any teenager black or white to ride in a car like that with hoodies on head and tinted windows ESP at night. A black colleague of mine once educated me that a thug is a thug. You don't have to be black to be a thug. And someone who might come across as a thug which is a popular young male thing, might get pulled over a time or two. Sometimes it's color discrimination, but always.

What is a thug? Especially when so many young men in the black community embrace the "hip hop culture" as their own. Which in part is apart of the black experience for many young black men. If you go to any historically black college or university you will see young black men dressed similar to other young black men who are not in college.

I went to a top ranked HBCU the same HBCU that martin luther king went to. The kids there dressed the same way the rappers on TV do, the same way the kids in the bronx do.

Clothes doesn't make you a thug your actions make you one.

The question comes up, when you notice a lot of young black men dressing a certain type of way inspired by an art form as being "thuggish" then when does that become a race issue?

The fact is there are millions of black men that are not thugs that have had many run ins with police officers, one being Sean Bell, Amadou Diallo and many other law abiding citizens that have lost their lives because the color of their skin lead to suspicion....to deny that is to deny what the black experience in america is.

 

[Avniel]

That's exactly my point. If you dress like a thug, drive a thug car, and drive in the middle of the night like a thug, regardless of the color of your skin, you will get pulled over because thugs are up to no good and the cops know that.

If you are not a thug and you choose to dress and drive like a thug, be prepared for society and the police to profile you like a thug. Just don't whine that you got pulled over because the first thing I and others will say is "if you don't want to get pulled over, why are you dressed and driving like a thug?"

What is dressing like a thug? What is driving like a thug? What makes you a thug? I always thought it was crimes, I never thought it was how one dresses.

The fact is that I bought a charger I really wanted a BMW 7 series and I could have bought it but I would have been a target. If I'm wearing a suit in a Mercedes Benz I as a black man will be pulled over in the Bronx my car will be searched. I bought rims because I like shinny things and I have tints because they are legal and I can have them. There is nothing thuggish about rims and tints it makes me a suspect because of where I am living and how much money I put into my car. I am a black kid from the bronx that still lives 6 blocks away from the projects and my car looks nice, my clothes look nice so no matter if I have a hoodie on or ferragamo suit I am a target. I have a college degree and I am in law school there is no reason I should be stopped and treated like scum.

If I go outside for a jog and I have a hoodie on I am a suspect?

Its not even about the hoodie. Do you know how many times I have been stopped by the police walking on my two feet in my neighborhood because I fit the profile. All my friends experience this from my college friends to my friends that arent doing anything with their life. I mean this is a reality this is the black man's experience in america.

The fact is a black man from my area in a nice car is..........a drug dealer, and a white man in my area in a nice car is........a business man. Which might not exactly be true but that is the reality most people are working with.

 

[Avniel]

Thats exactly what i was thinkign too..hes only an infant now..things ARE much better than they were even 20 years ago..so lets pray by the time this little guy is 20..what it is now.will be an extinct attitude..My chidlren too have been expsed to a LOT more diversity than I was ..of course Im 44 ...Anyway ..funny ..one of my sons is datng a black girl (we are whities by the way) and my 16 year old is dating a middle eastern girl of Muslim decent..and my oldest sons best friend is black hes also my grandbaby's God father and hes also "gasp" gay..YEP my grandbaby's God father ..is a black gay man...LOL!!..Im not laughing to poke fun..its just come on..we all need to grow up I think..

Dallas

I agree with you Dallas you made some great points me and my wife were actually just going over your points in the prior post and you made a lot of sense. I think that most racism comes from lack of education and or culture exposures. Truthfully I find that the higher educated a person is the less likely they are to be racist and the more likely they are to understand that persons cultural experiences.

II think that being married has kind of made more sympathetic to the woman's struggle in the world. I see my wife going through it and so I can understand the female's cognitive better.

But you did bring up our first argument in your prior post the black woman's experience vs the black man's experience the truth is I'd say they are about equal.

On one side the black man has to be sharp dress a certain way, talk a certain way, drive a certain car, watch where and when they go places. However black women have bigger freedoms as far as mobility and safety are concerned. However black women have other worries such as being devalued by black men, complexion bias, employment bias(as all women do), pay bias(as all women do)..

My wife will argue that women do in general.


Side note I actually enjoy this thread and the thoughts on it. I think this is a great way to open minds and to see what the next person feels

 

[Avniel]

I think there such a thing as just cause and police or neighborhood watch people can't just go around shooting people who fit a certain profile

Check the sean bell and Amadou Diallo case because that is exactly what happened. And Zimmerman is still not charged with any crimes

 

[LinkH]

I think it's good to be exposed to both perspectives. Just to save yourself from being hassled, it may be worth it not to have those rims on your car, or one of those cars that bounces up and down, not to have the metal-vibrating speakers, etc. That's my perspective. I've been a minority in a foreign country. Most of the discrimination though came in the form of higher prices in the market and things like that. I suppose there was a some positive discrimination in my favor being a foreigner, too, and there was the possiblity that some robbers might target me, but I never had my wallet stolen and I was never robbed. Firearms were rare there, and I was a bit taller and bigger than most men there, so that helped.

 

[sdmsanjose]

to Avniel
To answer the first subject you brought up, I think your position with your son is the best way to play the odds and is a safer approach.I can not deny that there is still some judgments made about a person based on the looks of that person and their dress and a few other factors.

My wife and I used to go to Mexico a few times a year and when we come back across the border the American custom officers will ask if we are all American Citizens. We say yes and sometimes the custom officer will look at my wife and ask “where were you born”. She will answer Arizona and sometimes they will ask for identification. They ask only her that question and not me.

You see my wife is 25% Mexican and has a darker skin color than an all white person. Now here is the interesting part. I am 50% Mexican but I have white skin. They have asked my wife where she was born but not me and I am more Mexican than she is.

I will say this, I really do not get upset over this situation as the ones that are coming to the U.S. are mostly dark skinned Mexicans and that is one of the duties of the custom officers is to keep undocumented Mexicans from coming into the U.S. When I buy things in Mexico I let my wife buy them as she will get a better price because my skin is white and they think that she is all Mexican.

I have heard that the people from the Middle East that dress like Middle Eastern people in America get checked at the airport and other places more than other people. That is appearance profiling and I have no problem with that. I would rather be called a racist than dead.

quote of Avniel
I was robbed at gun point and I never called the police I am a productive member of society and I fear the police

Frankly I think you are right to be aware that a black person has to make some sacrifices to play it safer in the U.S. However, I think you have taken it too far with your allowing an armed robber to not be pursued by the police because you “fear the Police”. In a way you are not helping crime but enabling a criminal to get his reward for his crime without the possibility of being prosecuted for his crime.

All policemen are not bad and I will even state that most policemen are not bad. All black people are not bad and most are not IMO. You have done what you are fighting against. You have judged all policemen by a minority of policemen

 

[LovedSparrow]

Hi Avniel,
I don't want to derail the thread, but I wanted to show you something. Here's a website that I liked reading a lot, it is going through America through the eyes of a black man and what he endures, even on a prominent college campus. It is tied to Trayvon's story:

I Could Be Trayvon

My best friend is black, and she told me the comments that people would make to her because she was 'too dark' or that she was a woman in a high up company position. It just made me sick hearing it. It's just not right. I think a lot of people in America don't realize this is alive and real.

I'm so glad that the media is giving so much attention to this case. It baffles me as to why Mr. Zimmerman has not been arrested yet, but that's for another thread another time.

Great thread idea.

**back to post***

 

[LovedSparrow]

Side note I actually enjoy this thread and the thoughts on it. I think this is a great way to open minds and to see what the next person feels

I do too.

 

[favoredbyGod48]

Honestly...if you are black in America, you will/can be pulled over or followed.

I am a woman who loves Jesus with all of my heart. I am AA and have been stopped and followed, not because I had on a hoodie, or wear my clothes baggy, nor do I have tinted windows or fancy rims on my tires. But, because of my skin color, I am discriminated against and it is quite disturbing.

Many times I have gone into stores to shop for clothes, etc. and have been followed as if I am going to steal items in the store. I have been stopped because I was told I look 'suspicious'....(maybe it was because I had just finished praising the Lord and crying in my car, in a parking lot and had a huge smile on my face, cause the presence of God was with me).

This needs to stop. What happened to that young man is not uncommon in America.

My prayer is that those who have this heart, come to know Jesus in a real and mighty way, and that they get delivered from this thing that so easily besets them. I pray that their eyes are opened to see that Our Father created us in His image and after His likeness and that He made us the way He wanted us...there is no favorites with God...He loves us all the same!

In Jesus name...Amen!

 

[WolfGate]

Avniel - shouldn't be this way but it is. You son cannot control some of the things that will cause profiling. He can't change his race. He has to decide if he wants to change those things that could increase harrassment and stereotyping. Best you can do is help him understand the reality of the situation and help him make an informed choice.

I pray that will continue to change. It is better than when I was growing up. Even as the cultures of different races, nationalities remain different (and that is not a bad thing), positive exposure in schools, neighborhoods, etc. has increased (slowly) and that will help the problem.

However, if someone chooses to adopt the look of certain groups, they should expect suspicion. If someones dresses like a motorcycle club member, wears inner city gang symbolic items, covers their truck with redneck (possible white supremicist) stickers, expect police to be suspicious that they are active in the organizations that fostered that look. That is profiling based on their choice to mimic criminals.

 

[Avniel]

Honestly...if you are black in America, you will/can be pulled over or followed.

I am a woman who loves Jesus with all of my heart. I am AA and have been stopped and followed, not because I had on a hoodie, or wear my clothes baggy, nor do I have tinted windows or fancy rims on my tires. But, because of my skin color, I am discriminated against and it is quite disturbing.

Many times I have gone into stores to shop for clothes, etc. and have been followed as if I am going to steal items in the store. I have been stopped because I was told I look 'suspicious'....(maybe it was because I had just finished praising the Lord and crying in my car, in a parking lot and had a huge smile on my face, cause the presence of God was with me).

This needs to stop. What happened to that young man is not uncommon in America.

My prayer is that those who have this heart, come to know Jesus in a real and mighty way, and that they get delivered from this thing that so easily besets them. I pray that their eyes are opened to see that Our Father created us in His image and after His likeness and that He made us the way He wanted us...there is no favorites with God...He loves us all the same!

In Jesus name...Amen!

Exactly people are copping out saying its clothes it doesn't matter what you wear the result is the same.

 

[mkgal1]

I know the underlying hateful attitude has NEVER gone away (there's always been a group of people that outright hate others just because they are different than them--maybe that even has to do with the Cain/Abel dynamic too), but doesn't it seem that the actual demonstration of the hate is increasing? And, like this murder in Florida, the ones involved are under the delusion that what they are doing is good instead of the evil it is?

**this was mostly a blind post, sorry if it is "out of step" of the discussion.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

I've been following the case. It's pretty messed up how something like that can happen with no arrest. I'm a former Floridian and have friends that are highly active in FL politics on both sides of the aisle. A lot of what I hear happening in FL these days politics wise is backwards and unfair in the extreme. I find it telling that my liberal and conservative friends there seem to at least agree on that.

FL politics are pretty awful.

 

[WolfGate]

WWC - from what I read (article written by legislator who wrote the law), the castle doctrine was in no way intended to allow someone to chase down another person, influence a confrontation, and then shoot them. Which is what happened here. Police dispatcher even told the guy he shouldn't follow the victim. The legislator seemed puzzled why the gunman wasn't charged.

So either the law isn't clear, or (more likely IMHO) the police and prosecutor botched this one pretty severly.

 

[dallasapple]

Exactly people are copping out saying its clothes it doesn't matter what you wear the result is the same.

right..I even UNDERSTAND the clothes part..seriously if I go outside dressed a certain way ..I can expect SOME might "wonder' if Im a prostitue..even if Im driving in my car with my gradnbaby on my way to the playground..LOL!!..

But I think I would get the BENEFIT of the doubt MORESO because im WHITE that I just dress tacky and "like " a prostitute but Im most likey NOT one....than if I was BLACK...so being black AND dressing in a manner thats "sterotyped" thug..or gangsta..or lady of the night..just seals the deal and turns it into a " that person must be' rather than "wonder if they are fllowed by a "nah"..

Hers an example..say a white kid..dressed "like a thug" and" like" a thug come on ..ya know the whole bang bang Im from the hood yo yo got my B and my gun whoa yo!

Anyway a white kid dressed "like" a "thug' would most likely be pegged a "thug wannabe"...a black kid dressed like a thug would BE A THUG..

Dallas

 

[WolfGate]

Dallas - for some reason, when I read your post, Eminem and Vanilla Ice samples started floating through my brain...

 

[dallasapple]

There was something recently that just showed how black people are ASSUMED "that" and not given the beneift of the doubt..white kids are given the benefit of the doubt and apparrently arent as 'threatening' to white people..dressed the saem way ..and committing the same crime..

I think its was Dateline..And this makes me angry so Im SURE it will everyone here too..

How it went was they hired teenaged actors..in an affluent mostly white community..and staged them in a parking lot vandalizing (I mean beating with bats spray painting knifing the tires ) a car..they DID have them all dress in the sterotypical thug clothes..the drooping pants ..the hoods..all that..in the middle of the day in a park..When the white boy actors were in the process of ripping this car to shreads..there were something like 20 paserbys they filmed..some..just pointed shook ther heads and walked away..some even tried to approach the boys and say HEY..what are you doing is that your car? NO? Well ou cant do that..stop it or I'll call the police..all together though I think it was only like 2 people that even CALLED 911...

Change the group..everything the same but the boys were black..20 passerbys something like 15 calls to the police..NO ONE tried to appraoch them either and reason with them like they did the white boys...some of the people (unlike with the white boys) CLEARLY seemed terrified..and stopped and turn around and sort of trotted off in the opposit directin to not even get near them..they apparently feared for their saftey with the black kids..not so with the white guys...even during the commission of a CRIME in progress ..

Heres the MOST sad part..during the filming..some of the black actors had brought along friends..(their ages and I think a cousin ..so ther were liek 3 black kids..that werent directly part of this experiment..but in the vacinity hanging out waiting)..DURING the time the WHERE the WHITE guys were vandalizing the car ...remember when there were only 2 911 calls to report it?The friends there (may have been 4) black kids who were waiting in a car..that was parked in the parking lot..they FELL asleep..there were something life 4 911 calls on THOSE sleeping black boys...while the vandelizing in PLAIN sight was going on by the with guys..the reports were "supsicious black men in a car that "appeared to be on drugs'..(they were ASLEEP).."didnt look like they BELONGED their' etc..so people were MORE alarmed and supsicious and ready to be GREAT watchdogs for society with 4 sleeping black boys in a car..than 4 WHITE wild out of control obvious vandals in plain sight pretty much got tolerated by many..

That wasnt even PART of the experiment they got that bit of info by ACCIDENT...

The black actors said ..they werent "surprised' they knew this would be the result..I was however ENCOURAGED one of them said ..but thats why wer're doing this..to show people infortunately its REAL..we are being actively discriminated against and hope this brings awareness and in some way helps shape a better future for OUR kids..All these boys were good students..never had been in trouble a day in thier life by the way..but they had expereinced this kind of "supspicion" already in thier young lives...with the racial profiling..

Dallas

 

[dallasapple]

Dallas - for some reason, when I read your post, Eminem and Vanilla Ice samples started floating through my brain...

I used to be a rapper wanna be..LOL!! I loved Em&Em..and I STILL love Tupac..YEP I LOVE Tupac Shakir...I like Biggie Smalls too..biggie biggie biggie cant you see..sometimes your love just hypmotise me...LOL!!Yeah i think I'll play that..and I love Dear Mama by Tupak too..I cant beleive they are dead...see?Their dead..I know Tupaks mother is outraged becaseu basically the cops just dropped the case..and didnt even half butt try to find his killer..I think they thought he was asking for it.He was a ittle bit thug..but Oh well..I loved the guy..

Dallas

 

[WalksWithChrist]

WWC - from what I read (article written by legislator who wrote the law), the castle doctrine was in no way intended to allow someone to chase down another person, influence a confrontation, and then shoot them. Which is what happened here. Police dispatcher even told the guy he shouldn't follow the victim. The legislator seemed puzzled why the gunman wasn't charged.

So either the law isn't clear, or (more likely IMHO) the police and prosecutor botched this one pretty severly.

I read that as well. It's truly baffling.

I just hope this sort of thing doesn't cause a riot or something.