Solving Tricky Verses with Christian Universalism.

[HSong]

So, I was writing Bible verses for evangelism when someone said “You should do Psalms 137:9 next”.



I had typed my reply “Thank you for the suggestion ”, but deleted it and decided to search up the verse, just in case it could be perceived as controversial.



Psalms 137:9 Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock! ERV



So good thing I checked, or I could have stepped on a a proverbial land mine. It’s why I always watch out for wolves in sheeps clothing.



So I looked through this thread and then replied “Psalms 137:9, like many other parts of the Bible, is not meant to be taken literally”



So they replied “alright thanks for clarifying”



You may have noticed I said “proverbial” land mine. That’s because, Psalms 137:9, like much of Proverbs, tells of a spiritual truth.



Another common one is The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. ECTer’s love to use that in debates, but when you imagine it as a metaphor of the Jews and the Gentiles, it makes sense.



he who seizes

שֶׁיֹּאחֵ֓ז (še·yō·ḥêz)



Can be seen as grabbing a spiritual hold of something, not physical. Like, if someone’s learning math, they can say they have a “grasp” on the topic. They aren’t physically holding it, they just understand it.



your infants

עֹ֝לָלַ֗יִךְ (‘ō·lā·la·yiḵ)

Strong's 5768: A suckling



and dashes

וְנִפֵּ֬ץ (wə·nip·pêṣ)

Strong's 5310: To dash to pieces, scatter



Is also used in the following verse as “little ones to pieces”



Hosea 13:16

Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword; their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.



Hosea 13:17

Return, Israel, to the LORD your God. Your sins have been your downfall!



Reveals that the reason why the little ones are dashed on the rocks is because of sin, which is their downfall, and the LORD, is trying to persuade Israel to return to Him, thus the LORD is actively trying to stop the children from being dashed on the rocks!



dashed on the rocks | English examples in context | Ludwig



reveals that “dashed on the rocks” is an idiom like “on the rocks”



On the rocks.

If something, like a relationship, is on the rocks, it is in trouble and may come to an end.



Thus, when the Bible says “dashes on the rocks” in Psalms 137:9 it means “ending a relationship”. The LORD wants all people to have a relationship with Him through Christ, thus, the relationship that God wants to end is the relationship humans have with sin in Hosea 13:17!



That’s why it’s a blessing! The little ones have a relationship with sin, so God “dashes them on the rocks”, ends their relationship with sin and dashes them against The Lord, who is the Rock (which is mentioned frequently in the same chapter of Psalms)



Psalm 18:1-3 I love you, Lord; you are my strength. The Lord is my rock, my fortress, and my savior

3. Psalm 71:3

Psalm 71:3 Be my rock of refuge, to which I can always go; give the command to save me, for you are my rock and my fortress.

Psalm 62:7-8 My honor and salvation come from God. He is my mighty rock and my protection.

Psalm 31:3-4 Yes, you are my Rock and my protection





Is God literally a rock? No, He’s not physically a rock. He’s spiritually a rock, his spiritual protection is as hard as a rock.



And now I just used Psalms 137:9 in spreading the Gospel by saying “The Lord is our Rock. He keeps the little ones on the Rock. Christ is our Rock. All will be saved through Him. He will save the world.”



So, what was originally used as a controversial verse meant to stump Christians has now been transformed into a powerful loving verse meant to stump those who do not believe, leave them stunned by the sheer awe and splendor of the Lord’s love for all of humanity.



Why? Because, it was always meant to be a reflection of God’s grace towards all of mankind.



2 Samuel 22:2 He said: “The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge



And as well, thank you to everyone who has participate in this forum. Even a decade later, the discussion on here has helped me tremendously when spreading the Gospel of Universal Salvation through Jesus Christ to people.

 

[Der Alte]

So, I was writing Bible verses for evangelism when someone said “You should do Psalms 137:9 next”.
I had typed my reply “Thank you for the suggestion ”, but deleted it and decided to search up the verse, just in case it could be perceived as controversial.
Psalms 137:9 Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock! ERV
So good thing I checked, or I could have stepped on a a proverbial land mine. It’s why I always watch out for wolves in sheeps clothing.
So I looked through this thread and then replied “Psalms 137:9, like many other parts of the Bible, is not meant to be taken literally”
So they replied “alright thanks for clarifying”
You may have noticed I said “proverbial” land mine. That’s because, Psalms 137:9, like much of Proverbs, tells of a spiritual truth.
Another common one is The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. ECTer’s love to use that in debates, but when you imagine it as a metaphor of the Jews and the Gentiles, it makes sense.
he who seizes
שֶׁיֹּאחֵ֓ז (še·yō·ḥêz)
Can be seen as grabbing a spiritual hold of something, not physical. Like, if someone’s learning math, they can say they have a “grasp” on the topic. They aren’t physically holding it, they just understand it.
your infants
עֹ֝לָלַ֗יִךְ (‘ō·lā·la·yiḵ)
Strong's 5768: A suckling
and dashes
וְנִפֵּ֬ץ (wə·nip·pêṣ)
Strong's 5310: To dash to pieces, scatter
Is also used in the following verse as “little ones to pieces”
Hosea 13:16
Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword; their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.
Hosea 13:17
Return, Israel, to the LORD your God. Your sins have been your downfall!
Reveals that the reason why the little ones are dashed on the rocks is because of sin, which is their downfall, and the LORD, is trying to persuade Israel to return to Him, thus the LORD is actively trying to stop the children from being dashed on the rocks!
dashed on the rocks | English examples in context | Ludwig
reveals that “dashed on the rocks” is an idiom like “on the rocks”
On the rocks.
If something, like a relationship, is on the rocks, it is in trouble and may come to an end.
Thus, when the Bible says “dashes on the rocks” in Psalms 137:9 it means “ending a relationship”. The LORD wants all people to have a relationship with Him through Christ, thus, the relationship that God wants to end is the relationship humans have with sin in Hosea 13:17!
That’s why it’s a blessing! The little ones have a relationship with sin, so God “dashes them on the rocks”, ends their relationship with sin and dashes them against The Lord, who is the Rock (which is mentioned frequently in the same chapter of Psalms)
Psalm 18:1-3 I love you, Lord; you are my strength. The Lord is my rock, my fortress, and my savior
3. Psalm 71:3
Psalm 71:3 Be my rock of refuge, to which I can always go; give the command to save me, for you are my rock and my fortress.
Psalm 62:7-8 My honor and salvation come from God. He is my mighty rock and my protection.
Psalm 31:3-4 Yes, you are my Rock and my protection
Is God literally a rock? No, He’s not physically a rock. He’s spiritually a rock, his spiritual protection is as hard as a rock.
And now I just used Psalms 137:9 in spreading the Gospel by saying “The Lord is our Rock. He keeps the little ones on the Rock. Christ is our Rock. All will be saved through Him. He will save the world.”
So, what was originally used as a controversial verse meant to stump Christians has now been transformed into a powerful loving verse meant to stump those who do not believe, leave them stunned by the sheer awe and splendor of the Lord’s love for all of humanity.
Why? Because, it was always meant to be a reflection of God’s grace towards all of mankind.
2 Samuel 22:2 He said: “The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge
And as well, thank you to everyone who has participate in this forum. Even a decade later, the discussion on here has helped me tremendously when spreading the Gospel of Universal Salvation through Jesus Christ to people.

Ancient Judaism 1000 yrs BC =/- did not have the English idiom "on the rocks." According to the native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars who translated the 1917 who translated the Jewish Publication Society OT. means what it says.

JPS Psalms 137:8-9
(8) O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.
(9) Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.​

 

[Saint Steven]

Another common one is The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. ECTer’s love to use that in debates, but when you imagine it as a metaphor of the Jews and the Gentiles, it makes sense.

Great topic, thanks.
Let's talk about this one. Not sure we can sweep it under the rug so easily.
As you know, I am a Christian Universalist, so I am not defending ECT. However...

If this STORY of the Rich Man and Lazarus was not about the afterlife, why would Jesus be so misleading?
That's right, I take this as a story, not a parable. Leaves me with some issues, for sure. That's okay.
Let's try to break this down to see what we can get out of it from the UR perspective.

Right away, we can say that what is termed as "hell" is actually the realm of the dead. Sheol/Hades/the Grave.
And there is a chasm separating two groups of souls. Some have already crossed over, some have not.
"... crossed over from death to life." - John 5:24 NIV

The lives the two men led put them in one place or the other to begin with.
Interesting that the angels carried Lazarus to Abraham, but the Rich Man was buried.
Lazarus to be comforted, the Rich Man to be "tormented".

The Rich Man did not want his brothers to experience such "torment".
Requested that Lazarus be sent to warn them. The punch line was Abraham telling the Rich Man
that no one would even believe someone raised from the dead.

The UR view, or one view, that I see here is that the period of "torment" for the Rich Man was not eternal punishment.
And obviously, a person that is being burned alive would not have the whereabouts to carry on an intelligent conversation.
So, the "torment" being spoken of here is considerably less than ECT.

No one from either side could cross over, but they could be translated by Jesus, or even Abraham, perhaps.

Probably other issues I need to address here. And we may be left with some loose ends. I'm okay with that.
We're trying to defend UR with an ECT biased book translation. Only so much you can do.

 

[Der Alte]

@HSong @Saint Steven
A "Parable" is a specific form of figure of speech used in the Bible. The word "parable" is derived from the Greek work "Parabole'" which means to lay or throw beside. Something unknown/not understood is explained by comparing it to something which is known/understood. A parable is usually introduced by the phrase "'X' is like unto 'Y'" See e.g. Matt 13:24

Matthew 13:24
(24) Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:​

Luke 16:19ff does not have the form of a parable, it might be some other form of figure of speech but it is not a parable. Jesus identified six parables when He spoke them. The disciples identified 26 parables which Jesus spoke for a total of 32. Luke 16:19ff is not identified as a parable and Jesus did not explain it to His disciples later.

 

[Der Alte]

* * * Probably other issues I need to address here. And we may be left with some loose ends. I'm okay with that.
We're trying to defend UR with an ECT biased book translation. Only so much you can do.

This is the standard heterodox cop-out. The Bible, Grammars, Lexicons are all biased. It has been 2000 years +/- There must be some unbiased UR scholars, why haven't some written unbiased grammars and lexicons? Why hasn't the Bible been translated by unbiased UR scholars?
Here is a link to the Jewish Publication Society translation online.

Online Bible

Here is a link to the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible online.

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

 

[Saint Steven]

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

 

[Saint Steven]

David Bentley Hart: The New Testament – a Translation​

In this new as-literal-as-it-gets translation of the New Testament, Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, seeks to remedy this by translating “as if no doctrine were given”. The result is a version of the New Testament at odds with great portions of traditional Protestant theology.

David Bentley Hart: The New Testament – a Translation – Mercy Upon All

For a long time few options have been available for those who wanted an alternative to the often dogmatically laden Bible translations commonly available in English (and many other languages)

In his new as-literal-as-it-gets translation of the New Testament, Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, seeks to remedy this by translating “as if no doctrine were given”. The result is a version of the New Testament at odds with great portions of traditional Protestant theology.

The translation also contains a nice introduction and a comprehensive post-script where Hart explains some of his more controversial translation choices.

Hart opts for translating the Greek words aion and aionion, traditionally translated as ‘eternity’ and ‘eternal’, by words more close to the original meaning of ‘age’ and ‘pertaining to an age’. But unlike, e.g. Young’s literal translation that translates aionios as ‘age-enduring,’ Hart chooses to render aionios as ‘of’ or ‘in’ the ‘Age’.

As with many others who defend a universalist soteriology, Hart argues that what has often been perceived as ‘eternal’ in the sense of being ‘never-ending’ should in fact not be understood so. This means that there are no biblical warrant for the belief in eternal (in the sense of never-ending) punishment:

“[…] in the original Greek of the New Testament, there really are only three verses that seem to threaten “eternal punishment” for the wicked (though, in fact, none of them actually does), and many who are doctrinally or emotionally committed to the idea of eternal torment for the unelect would feel gravely bereaved if the delicious clarity of the seemingly most explicit of those verses were allowed to be obscured behind a haze of lexical indeterminacy. To these I can say only that, if they really wish to believe in the everlasting torment of the reprobate, they are perfectly free to do so, whether there is any absolute unquestionable scriptural warrant for doing so or not; but, then again, even the Greek word typically rendered as “punishment” in that verse raises problems of translation […]” (Hart 2018, p. 541f).

Get it here.

 

[Der Alte]

*** Hart opts for translating the Greek words aion and aionion, traditionally translated as ‘eternity’ and ‘eternal’, by words more close to the original meaning of ‘age’ and ‘pertaining to an age’. But unlike, e.g. Young’s literal translation that translates aionios as ‘age-enduring,’ Hart chooses to render aionios as ‘of’ or ‘in’ the ‘Age’.
As with many others who defend a universalist soteriology, Hart argues that what has often been perceived as ‘eternal’ in the sense of being ‘never-ending’ should in fact not be understood so. This means that there are no biblical warrant for the belief in eternal (in the sense of never-ending) punishment:* * *

Oh goody. Universalists now have their own UR biased NT. This URNT lacks one thing that most other translations have, that is peer review. "Peer review" a published work is reviewed by recognized scholars in the field and errors or omissions are identified.
A word can only be translated as "of" something if it is in the genitive case. "Aionios" is an adjective. Only nouns take the genitive case. "Aionios' being an adjective cannot be translated as the noun "age."
Please see these three vss. where Jesus defines/describes "aionios" as eternal by juxtaposition with "shall not perish." three times.

John 10:28​

(28) I give them eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] life, and they shall never​

[εἰς τον αἰῶνα[font]/ eis ton aiona][lit. unto eternity] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. ​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aiona life” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aiona” means “age(s), a finite period,” “age(s) is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

John 3:15​

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.​

John 3:16​

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus juxtaposes “aionion life” with “should not perish,” twice! By definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
FYI I have 21 more vss. where "aionios" is defined/described as eternal/everlasting/for ever etc.
"Aionios" is never defined/described as a period less than eternal.

 

[HSong]

A good way to solve tricky verses in the Bible is by consulting good versions and different versions.


1 Corinthians 15:22: "As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive."

Christ will save everyone. Have faith alone in Jesus and be saved, amen.



What is the best version of the Bible?



Well, that would be the original Hebrew, Koine Greek and Aramaic scriptures, as they are the breathed out words of Jesus Christ, as He inspired and spoke out through His prophets.



But the answer you’re probably looking for, especially since you’re reading this in English is.



What is the best English version of the Bible?



Since the Bible wasn’t originally written in English, this will be a translation. So a better way to phrase this questions is:



What is the best English translation of the Bible?



This is important, since the translation process is done by humans. And we as humans are capable of making mistakes. It’s why it’s important to cross reference different translations of the Hebrew and Greek text on sites like Biblehub



For some verses, one version is better than the other. For instance, with Titus 2:11





Best Bible Translation





English Standard Version (ESV)

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,



New International Version (NIV)

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.



King James Version (KJV)

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,



(It’s more accurate to call it the King James Version, KJV, rather than the King James Bible. This is because the term “King James Bible” is used by fundamentalists, KJV-onlyists who only read that specific 1611 version.)



So, while it is best to read multiple versions of the Bible and look through different translations, some translations are more accurate to the original text than others.



Here’s a list of Bible versions I’ve found that I’ve enjoyed. I make this post because I wish to archive some of them on this website.



Holy Bible Aionian Edition

Here’s an interesting one, Aionian Bible.



To quote the user joeteekay from the Tentmaker forum “The Aionian Bible is a great improvement over the modern popular translations in use today such as the NIV, RSV, NKJV, among others. It correctly uses the words hades rather than hell, age or ages (eon or eons) rather than eternity or forever and ever, and gehenna rather than hell. This is consistent with the Greek.” End quote.



http://tentmaker.org/e-sword_modules/index.html



Doing some Internet sleuthing







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Forums List

Best Bible Translation



Romans 5:18: "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men."

 

[Der Alte]

A good way to solve tricky verses in the Bible is by consulting good versions and different versions.
1 Corinthians 15:22: "As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive." ***

I won't even bother with the rest of this out-of-context misrepresentation of scripture., Hardly a day goes by that 1 Cor 15:22 is quoted out-of-context vainly trying to "prove" universal reconciliation [UR].
This vs. does NOT say "all shall be made alive in Christ." as UR-ites twist it. How do we, beyond a shadow of a doubt, know this? Because the very next vs. #23 makes it abundantly, beyond question, clear.

1 Corinthians 15:23
(23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.​

This vs. tells us who will be made alive, "Christ first" afterward "they that are Christ's at his coming." NOT all mankind as UR-tes insist but only those who already belong to Christ when He returns. <Period>, End of sentence!
Also, Matthew 7:21-23 spoken by Jesus, Himself, says "NOT everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven."

 

[Mark Quayle]

A good way to solve tricky verses in the Bible is by consulting good versions and different versions.


1 Corinthians 15:22: "As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive."

Christ will save everyone. Have faith alone in Jesus and be saved, amen.



What is the best version of the Bible?



Well, that would be the original Hebrew, Koine Greek and Aramaic scriptures, as they are the breathed out words of Jesus Christ, as He inspired and spoke out through His prophets.



But the answer you’re probably looking for, especially since you’re reading this in English is.



What is the best English version of the Bible?



Since the Bible wasn’t originally written in English, this will be a translation. So a better way to phrase this questions is:



What is the best English translation of the Bible?



This is important, since the translation process is done by humans. And we as humans are capable of making mistakes. It’s why it’s important to cross reference different translations of the Hebrew and Greek text on sites like Biblehub



For some verses, one version is better than the other. For instance, with Titus 2:11





Best Bible Translation





English Standard Version (ESV)

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,



New International Version (NIV)

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.



King James Version (KJV)

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,



(It’s more accurate to call it the King James Version, KJV, rather than the King James Bible. This is because the term “King James Bible” is used by fundamentalists, KJV-onlyists who only read that specific 1611 version.)



So, while it is best to read multiple versions of the Bible and look through different translations, some translations are more accurate to the original text than others.



Here’s a list of Bible versions I’ve found that I’ve enjoyed. I make this post because I wish to archive some of them on this website.



Holy Bible Aionian Edition

Here’s an interesting one, Aionian Bible.



To quote the user joeteekay from the Tentmaker forum “The Aionian Bible is a great improvement over the modern popular translations in use today such as the NIV, RSV, NKJV, among others. It correctly uses the words hades rather than hell, age or ages (eon or eons) rather than eternity or forever and ever, and gehenna rather than hell. This is consistent with the Greek.” End quote.



http://tentmaker.org/e-sword_modules/index.html



Doing some Internet sleuthing







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Forums List

Best Bible Translation



Romans 5:18: "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men."

Just as an added note. I find the literal translations (all of them, to compare with each other— not just one) very helpful.

 

[Aaron112]

There is no version available that can help someone lost in a lie of Christian U.... nor in any other false gospel. They already have/ or had/ or claim to have or to understand, and are living in darkness.

 

[HSong]

Colossians 1:20-23



and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

This show us that if we have even the smallest amount of faith alone in Christ’s sacrifice on the cross, His blood washes us of all our sins permanently. Because the Holy Spirit begins to dwell inside us permanently as soon as we believe, and will never leave! And all things were reconciled which shows not only is it possible for all of us to be saved by believing in Jesus Christ, but it’s guaranteed that all things on Earth, all things in Heaven, everyone everywhere will become believers in Christ Jesus and be saved permanently and go to Heaven, that is guaranteed!



21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[a] your evil behavior.

Notice the word once? It tells us that that alienation was only one time! We were alienated because of sin, our evil behaviour, but after being washed clean by Jesus’ blood, we are free of sin and no longer alienated!

It also shows a change in perspective. As sinners, people have this fear and worry of a God that will punish them, but perfect love casts out fear, and when we believe in Christ with faith alone to wash away our sins, we no longer avoid evil behaviour because of the fear of punishment, but rather because of our love of God! We’ll stumble, fall, seven times a day sometimes, but since we’re already saved, we have a new attitude, a new belief. We recognize sin, and trust in Christ’s sacrifice to help us continually.



22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—

Without blemish and free from accusation further shows how Christ’s blood from His physical body washes away all our sins.



Colossians 1:23 - The Supremacy of Christ



23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.



First off, we can’t lose our salvation. Once saved always saved, that’s the eternal security of every believer.



if

εἴ (ei)

Conjunction

Strong's 1487: If. A primary particle of conditionality; if, whether, that, etc.



“If” mentions conditionality, which can also mean a condition that’s permanent, like the condition of righteousness when you believe in Christ and are saved permanently.



you continue

ἐπιμένετε (epimenete)

Verb - Present Indicative Active - 2nd Person Plural

Strong's 1961: (a) I remain, tarry, (b) I remain in, persist in. From epi and meno; to stay over, i.e. Remain.



Then demonstrates that we are in the permanent condition of remaining in something.





in [your] faith,

πίστει (pistei)

Noun - Dative Feminine Singular

Strong's 4102: Faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.



And this permanent condition came from our faith, singular, in Jesus Christ.



established

τεθεμελιωμένοι (tethemeliōmenoi)

Verb - Perfect Participle Middle or Passive - Nominative Masculine Plural

Strong's 2311: To found, lay the foundation (lit. and met.). From themelios; to lay a basis for, i.e. erect, or consolidate.



Of course, we can’t lay this foundation ourselves. Who layed the foundation? Who’s the cornerstone of your beliefs? It’s Jesus Christ! He layed the only possible foundation for salvation by dying on the cross and resurrecting 3 days later. Thus, if we have even the smallest amount of trust in that sacrifice, we are permanently saved because that foundation is Jesus Christ and He never fails because Jesus is love and

1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails!

Love = Jesus

Love never fails = Jesus never fails.

 

[Der Alte]

Colossians 1:20-23



and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

This show us that if we have even the smallest amount of faith alone in Christ’s sacrifice on the cross, His blood washes us of all our sins permanently. Because the Holy Spirit begins to dwell inside us permanently as soon as we believe, and will never leave! And all things were reconciled which shows not only is it possible for all of us to be saved by believing in Jesus Christ, but it’s guaranteed that all things on Earth, all things in Heaven, everyone everywhere will become believers in Christ Jesus and be saved permanently and go to Heaven, that is guaranteed!



21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[a] your evil behavior.

Notice the word once? It tells us that that alienation was only one time! We were alienated because of sin, our evil behaviour, but after being washed clean by Jesus’ blood, we are free of sin and no longer alienated!

It also shows a change in perspective. As sinners, people have this fear and worry of a God that will punish them, but perfect love casts out fear, and when we believe in Christ with faith alone to wash away our sins, we no longer avoid evil behaviour because of the fear of punishment, but rather because of our love of God! We’ll stumble, fall, seven times a day sometimes, but since we’re already saved, we have a new attitude, a new belief. We recognize sin, and trust in Christ’s sacrifice to help us continually.



22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—

Without blemish and free from accusation further shows how Christ’s blood from His physical body washes away all our sins.



Colossians 1:23 - The Supremacy of Christ



23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.



First off, we can’t lose our salvation. Once saved always saved, that’s the eternal security of every believer.



if

εἴ (ei)

Conjunction

Strong's 1487: If. A primary particle of conditionality; if, whether, that, etc.



“If” mentions conditionality, which can also mean a condition that’s permanent, like the condition of righteousness when you believe in Christ and are saved permanently.



you continue

ἐπιμένετε (epimenete)

Verb - Present Indicative Active - 2nd Person Plural

Strong's 1961: (a) I remain, tarry, (b) I remain in, persist in. From epi and meno; to stay over, i.e. Remain.



Then demonstrates that we are in the permanent condition of remaining in something.





in [your] faith,

πίστει (pistei)

Noun - Dative Feminine Singular

Strong's 4102: Faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.



And this permanent condition came from our faith, singular, in Jesus Christ.



established

τεθεμελιωμένοι (tethemeliōmenoi)

Verb - Perfect Participle Middle or Passive - Nominative Masculine Plural

Strong's 2311: To found, lay the foundation (lit. and met.). From themelios; to lay a basis for, i.e. erect, or consolidate.



Of course, we can’t lay this foundation ourselves. Who layed the foundation? Who’s the cornerstone of your beliefs? It’s Jesus Christ! He layed the only possible foundation for salvation by dying on the cross and resurrecting 3 days later. Thus, if we have even the smallest amount of trust in that sacrifice, we are permanently saved because that foundation is Jesus Christ and He never fails because Jesus is love and

1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails!

Love = Jesus

Love never fails = Jesus never fails.

Anybody can make the Bible support almost anything by quoting selective verses out-of-context as you have done here.
Do you think when Paul wrote the vss, you quoted he forgot he wrote the following verses?

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: [no wrongdoer] neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, [no wrongdoer] hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​

Twenty two categories of unrighteous people who have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.1. adulterers, 2. covetous, 3. drunkenness, 4. effeminate, 5. emulations, 6. envious, 7. extortion 8. fornication, 9. hatred, 10. heresies, 11. homosexuals, 12. idolators, 13. lasciviousness, 14. murder, 15. reveling, 16. revilers 17. sedition, 18. strife, 19. thieves, 20. uncleanness 21. witchcraft. 22. Wrath
Vss cited: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Ephesians 5:5, 1 Corinthians 3:17

 

[Der Alte]

Just as an added note. I find the literal translations (all of them, to compare with each other— not just one) very helpful.

I can agree with this to a point. But it seems different religious groups have their own favorite "literal" translations. For example, some groups favor Young's Literal Translation [YLT]. What makes it "literal?" Robert Young who did the translation said it was. As far as I know no body of Greek or Hebrew scholars signed off on it as "literal." Also Young was self-taught in Hebrew and Greek. I don't know about others but I would not consult a Dr or lawyer who was self-taught.
Here is what I would suggest, for Hebrew the 1906 Jewish Publication Society [JPS] translation.
For Greek the Eastern Greek Orthodox translation. Unfortunately, neither version will support the unorthodox teachings being promoted in this forum.
Link to JPS online

Online Bible

Link to EOB online

https://ia802306.us.archive.org/25/items/new-testament-the-eastern-greek-orthodox-bible/New%20Testament%20%28The%20Eastern%20Greek%20Orthodox%20Bible%29.pdf

 

[Mark Quayle]

I can agree with this to a point. But it seems different religious groups have their own favorite "literal" translations. For example, some groups favor Young's Literal Translation [YLT]. What makes it "literal?" Robert Young who did the translation said it was. As far as I know no body of Greek or Hebrew scholars signed off on it as "literal." Also Young was self-taught in Hebrew and Greek. I don't know about others but I would not consult a Dr or lawyer who was self-taught.
Here is what I would suggest, for Hebrew the 1906 Jewish Publication Society [JPS] translation.
For Greek the Eastern Greek Orthodox translation. Unfortunately, neither version will support the unorthodox teachings being promoted in this forum.
Link to JPS online

Online Bible

Link to EOB online

https://ia802306.us.archive.org/25/items/new-testament-the-eastern-greek-orthodox-bible/New%20Testament%20%28The%20Eastern%20Greek%20Orthodox%20Bible%29.pdf

But that is my point. Don't trust just one.

And certainly, don't trust paraphrases. It isn't usually hard to tell which 'versions' are paraphrases.

Ha! You say, "Unfortunately, neither version will support the unorthodox teachings being promoted in this forum." I don't know if you meant that as a play on words or what. "Orthodox teachings" and therefore also, "unorthodox teachings" have no reference to Greek Orthodox as such. Nor Russian Orthodox, but to "orthodoxy". Orthodox is an adjective: Definition of ORTHODOX
I hope you were being funny, when you said "Unfortunately..."!

 

[Der Alte]

But that is my point. Don't trust just one.
And certainly, don't trust paraphrases. It isn't usually hard to tell which 'versions' are paraphrases.
Ha! You say, "Unfortunately, neither version will support the unorthodox teachings being promoted in this forum." I don't know if you meant that as a play on words or what. "Orthodox teachings" and therefore also, "unorthodox teachings" have no reference to Greek Orthodox as such. Nor Russian Orthodox, but to "orthodoxy". Orthodox is an adjective: Definition of ORTHODOX
I hope you were being funny, when you said "Unfortunately..."!

I typed "unorthodox" when I should have typed "Controversial". At one time this forum was the "Unorthodox Theology forum." I have been here almost from the very beginning. I should have said ,"Unfortunately, [for the proponents thereof] neither version [EOB or JPS] will support the controversial teachings being promoted in this forum."