Sola Scripturists guide on the authority of the Bible

[Hentenza]

My point is that the first bishops were appointed by and succeeded the apostles, and that this succession continues today.

Your point is wrong. The apostles did appoint the first overseers but there was no succession of apostles. The office of apostle ceased once the apostles died.

 

[laconicstudent]

My point is that the first bishops were appointed by and succeeded the apostles, and that this succession continues today.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Your point is wrong. The apostles did appoint the first overseers but there was no succession of apostles. The office of apostle ceased once the apostles died.

Note carefully what I said, I did not say that the apostolic office itself continued. I said that the office of the bishops (the highest authority after the apostes) took it's place with regards to preservance of church doctrine and teaching, and were commissioned by the apostles to do so and continue teaching other's the same.

Paul to Timothy:

2And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I think we should make that a sticky on GT as you posted the same thing in another thread

http://www.christianforums.com/t7541281/#post57042186

Patience is a gift of mine.

I'd do it:

The Rule of Scripture in Norming (What Luther and Calvin called "Sola Scriptura")

Dang CJ!
Perhaps you should put this in yer siggy!

http://www.christianforums.com/t7545326/#post57042229
Why I am done with studying scripture as a private endeavor

Okay. So, the Jews should have ignored the Ten Commandments because we know a lot more was to come, right?<snip>........

The Rule of Scripture in Norming (What Luther and Calvin called "Sola Scriptura

 

[Ortho_Cat]

The verse is talking about gifts not the office. Try again.

Just because you say it's there doesn't convince me that it is...

Yes there is a big distinction. Show me where Paul and Luke disagree.

Again, show me the scriptural evidence of the distinction among gift receiving and official apostles. Paul and Luke call Paul, Barnabas, and Timothy Apostles. I'm pretty sure at least Luke knew what it meant to call someone an apostle...

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Dang CJ!
Perhaps you should put this in yer siggy!

You think it would do ANY good?

Me, neither.




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[CaliforniaJosiah]

.

Paul to Timothy:

2And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others.

See, I read those words and here's what I think they say: And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others.

The RCC teaches those "words" and says, "You infallible, unaccountable men whose words are God's words, your ability will be re-gifted to others in perpetuity when the RC Denomination appoints someone in your place, who then is equally incapable of being wrong - a quality they share with the denomination that appointed them, for Jesus said to the RC denomination: Whoever hears you hears me, and since Jesus is immune to accountability, so is the RC denomination and all it appoints - unless it says one is messing up."


In my Catholic years, I learned that according to the RCC, nearly everything in the Bible is about the RCC and all the POWER it has so that all are to be in quiet, docilic submission to itself as unto God. Things just get "read" so as to "say" that. Pretty soon, it seems like the actual words God put there don't have any significance or meaning. So it seemed to me.





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[Ortho_Cat]

See, I read those words and here's what I think they say: And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others.

The RCC teaches those "words" and says, "You infallible, unaccountable men whose words are God's words, your ability will be re-gifted to others in perpetuity when the RC Denomination appoints someone in your place, who then is equally incapable of being wrong - a quality they share with the denomination that appointed them, for Jesus said to the RC denomination: Whoever hears you hears me, and since Jesus is immune to accountability, so is the RC denomination and all it appoints - unless it says one is messing up."

I'm not sure even RC's would agree with that...I do think it refers to handing down some type of teaching authority though, and the importance of passing down what you learned from those who came before you.

In my Catholic years, I learned that according to the RCC, nearly everything in the Bible is about the RCC and all the POWER it has so that all are to be in quiet, docilic submission to itself as unto God. Things just get "read" so as to "say" that. Pretty soon, it seems like the actual words God put there don't have any significance or meaning. So it seemed to me.

Yes, this show's how we can interpret the bible passages many different ways depending on our surrounding context that are able to read into it. Luther certainly was not immune to this either.

 

[Hentenza]

Note carefully what I said, I did not say that the apostolic office itself continued. I said that the office of the bishops (the highest authority after the apostes) took it's place with regards to preservance of church doctrine and teaching, and were commissioned by the apostles to do so and continue teaching other's the same.

Nope. The office of overseer did not take the place of the office of apostle. Nothing in scripture teaches that.

Paul to Timothy:

2And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others.

Teach, brother, not go lead a bunch of single denominational churches. I am a deacon and teacher at my church. This past year I led a discipleship class for mature and reliable Christians that were interested in teaching. I entrusted what Paul, through the scripture, had taught me to them. This is what Paul teaches not some mystical pass down of power or some legalistic succession.

 

[Hentenza]

Just because you say it's there doesn't convince me that it is...

I am not here to convince you. No one wins these kind of debates. My writings here are for the lurker and those wanting to learn a biblical view of this topic.

Again, show me the scriptural evidence of the distinction among gift receiving and official apostles. Paul and Luke call Paul, Barnabas, and Timothy Apostles. I'm pretty sure at least Luke knew what it meant to call someone an apostle...

I am not repeating myself. I have posted many verses to support such in this thread and others. Go find them.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I'm sorry, but this just doesn't make sense. If scripture is your norm, don't you want to make sure you have all the right 'scripture'?

If you do the sign of the Cross, don't you want know who is president of the USA? Probably, but the practice of one isn't the same as the knowledge of the other.

Sola Scriptura is the PRACTICE of embracing Scripture as the rule in norming. Yes - it would be helpful to be embracing the same thing, I see your point, but then what Book do you think we should be focusing on IN STEAD of the ones in your Bible or mine? The Book of Mormon? Which? Where's the dispute? What conflict is so great as to make the praxis moot? Are you saying the only Scripture that matter is Psalm 151 and since the RCC doesn't accept that as Scripture, ergo it is impossible to use Scripture as a rule?

Right now, there are laws being enacted by my State. I don't know what they are. Does that mean I should just ignore all the driving laws I know DO exist and hey, do what I want - I'm unaccountable?




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[Steve Petersen]

IIRC I was focusing on the 27 books of the NT. Which I thought all Christians agreed on up to today...

Actually, there are at least four different scriptural canons in use today in the Christian world.

Some only have 22 books, others more; some missing books that are in the 27, some use books that are not in the 27.

Which group has the inspired collection?

 

[Ortho_Cat]

If you do the sign of the Cross, don't you want know who is president of the USA? Probably, but the practice of one isn't the same as the knowledge of the other.

 

[laconicstudent]

'Tis ok, I don't know what the sign of the Cross has to do with President Obama, either....

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Nope. The office of overseer did not take the place of the office of apostle. Nothing in scripture teaches that.

Again, I did not say that it 'replaced' the apostles, such as 'fulfilling' the roles of the apostles. The bishops merely carried on the jurisdictional duties of taking care of the flock and ensuring correct teaching.

Teach, brother, not go lead a bunch of single denominational churches. I am a deacon and teacher at my church. This past year I led a discipleship class for mature and reliable Christians that were interested in teaching. I entrusted what Paul, through the scripture, had taught me to them. This is what Paul teaches not some mystical pass down of power or some legalistic succession.

That's good, but if you do not have a historical connection to the source, don't you have to wonder if something got lost somewhere between the first century and now?

 

[Montalban]

Actually, there are at least four different scriptural canons in use today in the Christian world.

Some only have 22 books, others more; some missing books that are in the 27, some use books that are not in the 27.

Which group has the inspired collection?

Absolutely why we can't go SS

 

[Ortho_Cat]

'Tis ok, I don't know what the sign of the Cross has to do with President Obama, either....

This is all I can come up with...

Deacon: Again we pray for our country, our President, all civil authorities and those in public service.

People: +Lord have mercy.

 

[Montalban]

If you do the sign of the Cross, don't you want know who is president of the USA? Probably, but the practice of one isn't the same as the knowledge of the other. .

Is Peyote legal in your state?

 

[laconicstudent]

This is all I can come up with...

Deacon: Again we pray for our country, our President, all civil authorities and those in public service.

People: +Lord have mercy.

I guess.... Maybe he's objecting to the fact that we aren't commemorating the President by name?

I think some parishes might do that.

 

[Standing Up]

Actually, Tradition was used to combat Arius -- as both sides had Scriptural support. In fact, what was received/believed is what identified Arius's teaching as being in error.

Since Montalban can't, could you provide the tradition sources that supported Arius' claim?