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Sola Scripturists guide on the authority of the Bible

Hentenza

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I posted a over 11 verses in my post 308 and you have addressed one which I counter addressed. You are far from addressing my post 308.

EDIT: I apologize for that tone, it was unnecessary.

Apology accepted.

Nope, not at all!

Then what is the problem? Silas and Barnabas never defended their apostleship. They never claimed to hold the office of apostle nor did they pretend to have the same authority as the 12 and Paul. The were sent by the authority of the 12 and Paul with the message of the gospel. In a sense, most evangelists have the gift of apostleship just not the office.
 
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Standing Up

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This is one I've answered many times before

homoousios is not to be found in the Bible

When they met at council they voted on what the church had always taught.

That was my question. What Tradition taught it? Did Barnabas, didache, irenaeus, what? Someone mentioned spurgeon, but he's a little later ;)

I suspect Arius pulled out scripture like satan, without understanding the whole of scripture. IOW, he cited Father is greater than the Son, without understanding the context of servanthood.
 
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Ortho_Cat

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No since neither was chosen by Christ. Both fit the criteria for the gift of apostle (1 Cor. 12:28) not the office of apostle.

28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.



:confused: Yes, and your point? I see no distinction here between "an office" and "a gift". This sounds more like a desperate attempt to cling to man-made traditions in the face of overwhelming scriptural evidence to the contrary. Too bad Paul and Luke (among others) disagree with you on what the criteria for what an apostle is.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Debunked and annihilaition are 2 different things. Both of those ideas are alive and taught today.
Of course, it is said that there are no new heresies...
:)
That topic is alive mainly on the UT board of CF

http://www.christianforums.com/t7488091/
Annihilationism resources

snip OP:
Looking to learn more about annihilationism (as in annihilation versus eternal torment)
I've been to tentmaker.org and alsp heard some of edward fudges expositions. I'm looking for an in-depth resource on the study of the biblical words such as "eternal" and "for ever and ever"...........

Annihilationism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Annihilationist)

In Christianity, annihilationism is the belief that sinners are destroyed, rather than tormented forever in "hell" as in the lake of fire. It is directly related to the doctrine of conditional immortality, the idea that a human soul is not immortal unless it is given eternal life. Annihilationism asserts that God will eventually destroy or annihilate the wicked, leaving only the righteous to live on in immortality.
 
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Ortho_Cat

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Then what is the problem? Silas and Barnabas never defended their apostleship. They never claimed to hold the office of apostle nor did they pretend to have the same authority as the 12 and Paul. The were sent by the authority of the 12 and Paul with the message of the gospel. In a sense, most evangelists have the gift of apostleship just not the office.

Ah, sleight of hand tricks now I see. Of course they didn't claim it themselves, at least not verbally in scripture, Paul clearly did that for them! I suggest you refer to the verses in post #326 again, that should clear things up.
 
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ivebeenshown

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28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.



:confused: Yes, and your point? I see no distinction here between "an office" and "a gift". This sounds more like a desperate attempt to cling to man-made traditions in the face of overwhelming scriptural evidence to the contrary. Too bad Paul and Luke (among others) disagree with you on what the criteria for what an apostle is.
That's where I was going too... never seen the phrases 'office of Apostle' or 'gift of Apostle' anywhere in the scriptures. :confused:
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by Hentenza Then what is the problem? Silas and Barnabas never defended their apostleship. They never claimed to hold the office of apostle nor did they pretend to have the same authority as the 12 and Paul. The were sent by the authority of the 12 and Paul with the message of the gospel. In a sense, most evangelists have the gift of apostleship just not the office.
Ah, sleight of hand tricks now I see. Of course they didn't claim it themselves, at least not verbally in scripture, Paul clearly did that for them! I suggest you refer to the verses in post #326 again, that should clear things up.
Would that be the same as being "slick" :)

Slick | Define Slick at Dictionary.com
—Synonyms
3. wily, tricky, foxy, sharp.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7411153-42/#post53271205
Slick move by the Pope to attract Anglicans
 
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Standing Up

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Ah, sleight of hand tricks now I see. Of course they didn't claim it themselves, at least not verbally in scripture, Paul clearly did that for them! I suggest you refer to the verses in post #326 again, that should clear things up.

Vines:
Apostle, Apostleship:
is, lit., "one sent forth" (apo, "from," stello, "to send"). "The word is used of the Lord Jesus to describe His relation to God, Hbr 3:1; see Jhn 17:3. The twelve disciples chosen by the Lord for special training were so called, Luk 6:13; 9:10. Paul, though he had seen the Lord Jesus, 1Cr 9:1; 15:8, had not 'companied with' the Twelve 'all the time' of His earthly ministry, and hence was not eligible for a place among them, according to Peter's description of the necessary qualifications, Act 1:22. Paul was commissioned directly, by the Lord Himself, after His Ascension, to carry the Gospel to the Gentiles.
"The word has also a wider reference. In Act 14:4, 14, it is used of Barnabas as well as of Paul; in Rom 16:7 of Andronicus and Junias. In 2Cr 8:23 (RV, margin) two unnamed brethren are called 'apostles of the churches;' in Phl 2:25 (RV, margin) Epaphroditus is referred to as 'your apostle.' It is used in 1Th 2:6 of Paul, Silas and Timothy, to define their relation to Christ." *
[* From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp. 59-60.]
Rev. 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

There are 12, yet others will claim it.

Rev. 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

But what's your point? That a bishop is the same as an apostle?
 
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Montalban

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That was my question. What Tradition taught it? Did Barnabas, didache, irenaeus, what? Someone mentioned spurgeon, but he's a little later
I suspect Arius pulled out scripture like satan, without understanding the whole of scripture. IOW, he cited Father is greater than the Son, without understanding the context of servanthood.

You've just undermined your entire position!

You've argued here that NO TRADITION taught the heresy, but the heresy was pulled from the Bible.

I would totally agree with you. Tradition is what guaranteed the correct use of the Bible

Welcome brother StandingUp!
:holy:
 
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Standing Up

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You've just undermined your entire position!

You've argued here that NO TRADITION taught the heresy, but the heresy was pulled from the Bible.

I would totally agree with you. Tradition is what guaranteed the correct use of the Bible

Welcome brother StandingUp!
:holy:

Slow down brother Montalban. You may be confusing people here, as well as confusing me for someone else.

Arius did use some scripture to try to prove his point. Others used scripture to prove theirs. An impasse? Or was there some tradition that they pointed to?

All I'm wondering is what tradition was used to prove the creed? I don't know. But, I've already said that Arius was like the devil in quoting scripture---it is written---but Jesus replied---it is written. Jesus obviously knew the full counsel of God, not just the pick and choose, one liner.

So, in my mind, the controversy was still solved by the ---it is written--- rule of faith. I'm just wondering what tradition, if any, did either side point to to buttress their position?

PS, as I've also mentioned I do acknowledge tradition, as long as that tradition ties back to an apostle (like Polycarp's apostolic tradition versus Sixtus I's/Anicetus/the church's custom). That was Irenaeus' position as well as Tertullian's. So, sola scriptura (SS) and TTA (tradition tied to apostle), which is to say really, that at this stage of our history, we have scripture alone.
 
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Montalban

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Slow down brother Montalban. You may be confusing people here, as well as confusing me for someone else.

I accept what you wrote. Great rebuttal of SS!

Arius pulled Scripture to back him up.

Tradition guaranteed the right interpretation :bow:
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Tradition guaranteed the right interpretation

You know, if this thread was about hermeneutics instead of norming, I would have given a big "AMEN" to your post.

But as the rule - I find that self looking to self is not a sound rule in evaluating if self is correct in what self says.





.
 
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sunlover1

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I accept what you wrote. Great rebuttal of SS!

Arius pulled Scripture to back him up.

Tradition guaranteed the right interpretation :bow:
You're misrepresenting SUp
Interesting.
Did you think that the rest of us can't read?
Or are ya just having some fun on a boring Tuesday eve?
I am all for having some fun too!
We're sort of grounded in my part of the country.
(Weather related) so.. this IS my fun...
 
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Thekla

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This might help:

(I deliberately quoted the portion which includes Justin Martyr and Trypho, as it helps to demonstrate 'received' vs. 'reasoned/inferred' understanding in the Christian Tradition.)
In order to prove their points the Arians and Eunomians argued, as did the Jew Trypho with Justin Martyr, that it was not the Angel of the Lord in the burning bush who said "I am He Who Is" (Ex. 3, 14), but God Himself by means of the created Logos Angel. The Fathers insisted that the Angel-Logos revealed this about Himself also, and not only about God. The Angel of the Lord spoke in His own right also when to Moses He said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob" (Ex. 3, 6).
w.gif
Against the Arians St. Athanasius argues that the name 'angel' is sometimes applied to the uncreated Logos and sometimes to a created angel. He insists that there can be no confusion on whether one sees a created angel or the uncreated Son of God sometimes called 'angel' in the Old Testament. He insists that "when the Son is seen, so is the Father, for He is the Father's radiance; and thus the Father and the Son are one... What God speaks, it is very plain He speaks through the Logos and not through another... And he who hath seen the Son, knows that, in seeing Him, he has seen, not an angel, nor one merely greater than angels, nor in short any creature, but the Father Himself. And he who hears the Logos, knows that he hears the Father; as he who is irradiated by the radiance, knows that he is enlightened by the sun (Against Arians III, 12-14). As a key to the Old and New Testaments, St. Athanasius states that "there is nothing that the Father operates except through the Son..." (Ibid. III, 12).

w.gif
This means that the Old Testament is Christocentric since Christ is the pre-incarnate Angel of the Lord and of the Great Council, the Lord of Glory, and the Lord Sabbaoth in Whom the patriarchs and prophets see and hear God and through Whom they receive grace, succor, and forgiveness.

w.gif
That the Orthodox and Arians agreed that it was the Angel-Logos Who appeared to and revealed God to the prophets and the very same person who became man and the Christ should be taken very seriously as the key to understanding the decisions of the First and subsequent Ecumenical Councils. It is important to realize that the Orthodox and Arians were not arguing speculatively over an abstract Second Person of the Holy Trinity whose identity and nature one allegedly deciphered by mulling over biblical passages with the help of Hellenistic philosophy and the Holy Spirit. What they were discussing was the spiritual experience of the prophets and apostles; specifically whether it is a created or uncreated Logos who appears in glory to them and reveals in Himself as Image God the Father as Archetype.

w.gif
Because the Eunomians held the same positions as the Arians on the appearances of the allegedly created Logos-Angel to the prophets, this same discussion was carried to the Second Ecumenical Council, St, Basil the Great with a bit of loss of patience accosts Eunomius as follows: You atheist, are you not going to cease calling Him who is really He Who Is - the source of life, the one who gives to all that exist their being - non-being? Him who found, when giving an audience to His own servant Moses, His proper and meet appellation for His eternity, naming Himself 'He Who Is.' For He said 'I am He Who Is. And that these things were said by the Person of the Lord no one will gainsay; that is, no one who does not have the Jewish covering lying over against his heart in the reading of Moses (2 Cor. 3. 15). For it is written, that an angel of the Lord appeared to Moses in fire of flame from the bush (Ex. 3, 2). Whereas the Scripture presents in the narrative an angel, the voice of God follows: 'He said to Moses, I am the God of your father Abraham' (Ex. 3, 6). And a bit later again, 'I am He Who Is.' Who then is He Himself both angel and God? Therefore, is it not He about whom we learned, that He is called 'the Angel of the Great Council'? (Is. 9, 6)." After summarizing the same observations about the encounter between the Angel-Logos and Jacob, which one finds in St. Athanasius the Great and the earlier Fathers, St. Basil gives expression to the same interpretative principle as we saw in the bishop of Alexandria. It is clear to all, that wherever the same person is called both angel and God, it is the Only-Begotten who is declared, who manifests Himself to human beings from generation to generation and announces the will of the Father to His saints. Thus He who to Moses gave Himself the name 'He Who Is,' is to be thought of as none other than God the Logos, who in the beginning is with God (John l. I - 2)' (Refutation Of Eunomius Apology II, 18). Eunomius answered these arguments of Basil by claiming that the Son is the angel of "Him Who Is» but not "He Who Is Himself. This angel is called god to show his superiority over all the things created by him, but this does not mean that he is He Who Is. Thus Eunomius claims that, He who sent Moses was Himself He Who Is, but he by whom He sent and spake was the angel of Him Who Is, and the god of all else (Gregory of Nyssa, Against Eunomius XI. 3).

w.gif
The sophistic subtlety of the argument may seem strange but it is nevertheless important as a witness to the fact that the identity of the Angel, called God in the Old Testament, with Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God and Creator, was so entrenched in the tradition that the Eunomians could never think of getting rid of it as Augustine, a younger contemporary, was about to do in North Africa in spite of the fact his alleged teacher Ambrose and all the rest of the Western Fathers agreed with the tradition herein described.
THE LORD YAHWEH OF GLORY IN THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS Part 2
 
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Thekla

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You never read this, I know, but give it a shot. I highlighted in bold, blue font the part that you are ignorant about.






The Rule of Scripture in Norming (What Luther and Calvin called "Sola Scriptura")




The Definition:


The Rule of Scripture is the practice of embracing Scripture as the rule ("straight edge") - canon ("measuring stick") - norma normans (the norm that norms) as it is called in epistemology, as we examine and evaluate the positions (especially doctrines) among us.


Here is the official, historic definition:
"The Scriptures are and should remain the sole rule in the norming of all doctrine among us" (Lutheran Formula of Concord, Solid Declaration, Rule and Norm, 9). "We pledge ourselves to the prophetic and apostolic writings of the Old and New Testaments as the pure and clear fountain of Israel, which is the only true norm according to which all teachers and teachings are to be judged" (ditto, 3).




What it IS
:

1. An embrace of accountability for the doctrines among us (especially those in dispute).


2. An embrace of norming (the process of examining positions for truth, correctness, validity).


3. An embrace of Scripture as the best, most sound rule/canon/norma normans for this process.



What it is NOT
:

1. A teaching that all revelation or truth is found in Scripture. It's not a teaching at all, it is the PRACTICE of using Scripture as the rule in the norming of doctrines. Scripture itself says that "the heavens declare the glory of God" but our visual reception of the stars is not used as the norma normans for the evaluation of doctrines among us in the practice of Sola Scriptura.


2. A teaching that Scripture is "finished." It's not a teaching at all. While probably all that practice Sola Scripture agree with all others that God seems to have inscribed His last book around 100 AD and doens't seem to be adding any more books, the Rule of Scripture was just as "valid" in 1400 BC when Scripture consisted of just two stone tablets as it is today - only the corpus of Scripture is larger, that has no impact on the practice of embracing it as the rule/canon/norma normans in our evaluation of doctrines among us. The Rule of Scripture embraces the Scripture that is.


3. Hermeneutics. The Rule of Scripture has to do with WHAT is the most sound rule/canon/norma normans for the evaluation of the doctrines among us, it is not a hermeneutical principle. Obviously that Scripture needs to be interpreted, but that's a different subject or another day and thread. The Rule of Scripture has to do with norming, not interpreting.


4. Arbitration. Obviously, some process of determining whether the doctrine under review "measures up" (arbitration) to the "measuring stick" (the canon). This is also beyond the scope here, the Rule of Scripture is the embrace of Scripture AS that canon, it does not address the issue of HOW it is best determined if a position "measures up" to that canon.





An illustration:



Let's say Dave and Fred are neighbors. They decided that they will hire a contractor to build a brick wall on their property line, six feet tall. Dave and Fred hire Bob the Builder. He agrees to build the wall on the property line - six feet tall.

Bob is now done. He claims the wall is six feet tall. Does it matter? If it doesn't, if his work and claim are entirely MOOT - then, nope - truth doesn't matter. And can just ignore what he said and did. OR we can consider that of the nearly 7 billion people in the world, there is ONE who is incapable of being wrong about measurements - and that ONE is Bob the Builder, claims ONE - Bob the Builder. IF Bob the Builder alone is right about what he alone claims about he alone here, it's pretty much a waste of time to wonder if what he said about this is true or not. But, IF truth matters and IF Bob the Builder will permit accountability (perhaps because he is confident the wall IS six feet tall), then we have the issue of accountability: Is the wall what we desire and what Bob the Builder claims it is?


If so, we just embraced norming. Norming is the process of determining correctness of the positions among us. For example, Bob claiming the wall is 6 feet tall. Is that correct? Addressing that question is norming.



Norming typically involves a norm: WHAT will serve as the rule (straight edge) or canon (measuring stick) - WHAT will be embraced by all parties involved in the normative process that is the reliable standard, the plumbline. Perhaps in the case of Fred and Dave, they embrace a standard Sears Measuring Tape. They both have one, Bob does too. Dave, Fred and Bob consider their carpenter's Sears Measuring Tape as reliable for this purpose, it's OBJECTIVE (all 3 men can read the numbers), it's UNALTERABLE (none of the 3 can change what the tape says) and it's OUTSIDE and ABOVE and BEYOND all 3 parties. Using that could be called "The Rule of the Measuring Tape." The Sears Measuring Tape would be the "canon" (the word means 'measuring stick') for this normative process.




Why Scripture?



In epistemology (regardless of discipline), the most sound norma normans is usually regarded as the most objective, most knowable by all and alterable by none, the most universally embraced by all parties as reliable for this purpose. My degree is in physics. Our norma normans is math and repeatable, objective, laborative evidence. Me saying, "what I think is the norm for what I think" will be instantly disregarded as evidential since it's both moot and circular. I would need to evidence and substantiate my view with a norm fully OUTSIDE and ABOVE and BEYOND me - something objective and knowable. This is what The Handbook of the Catholic Faith proclaims (page136), "The Bible is the very words of God and no greater assurance of credence can be given. The Bible was inspired by God. Exactly what does that mean? It means that God Himself is the Author of the Bible. God inspired the penmen to write as He wished.... the authority of the Bible flows directly from the Author of the Bible who is God; it is authoritative because the Author is." Those that accept the Rule of Scripture tend to agree. It's embrace as the most sound Rule flows from our common embrace of Scripture as the inscriptured words of God for God is the ultimate authority.

The embrace of Scripture as the written words of God is among the most historic, ecumenical, universal embraces in all of Christianity. We see this as reliable, dependable, authoritative - it as a very, very, broad and deep embrace as such - typically among all parties involved in the evaluation. (See the illustration above).


It is knowable by all and alterable by none. We can all see the very words of Romans 3:25 for example, they are black letters on a white page - knowable! And they are unalterable. I can't change what is on the page in Romans 3:25, nor can any other; what is is.


It is regarded as authoritative and reliable. It is knowable by all and alterable by none. Those that reject the Rule of Scripture in norming ( the RCC and LDS, for example ) have no better alternative (something more inspired, more inerrant, more ecumenically/historically embraced by all parties, more objectively knowable, more unalterable), they have no alternative that is clearly more sound for this purpose among us.


To simply embrace the teachings of self (sometimes denominational "tradition" or "confession") as the rule/canon is simply self looking in the mirror at self - self almost always reveals self. In communist Cuba, Castro agrees with Castro - it has nothing whatsoever to do with whether Castro is correct. We need a Rule outside, beyond, above self.




Why do some so passionately reject it?



Those that reject the Rule of Scripture in norming tend to do so not because they reject Scripture or have an alternative that is MORE inerrant, MORE the inscripturated words of God, MORE reliable, MORE objectively knowable, MORE unalterable, MORE ecumenically embraced as authoriative. Rather the rejection tends to be because each rejects accountability (and thus norming and any norm in such) in the sole, singular, exclusive, particular, unique case of self alone. From The Handbook of the Catholic Faith (page 151), "When the Catholic is asked for the substantiation for his belief, the correct answer is: From the teaching authority. This authority consists of the bishops of The Catholic Church in connection with the Catholic Pope in Rome. The faithful are thus freed from the typically Protestant question of 'is it true' and instead rests in quiet confidence that whatever the Catholic Church teaches is the teaching of Jesus Himself since Jesus said, 'whoever hears you hears me'." The Catholic Church itself says in the Catechism of itself (#87): Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: “He who hears you, hears me”, The faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their [Catholic] pastors give them in different forms." IF self declares that self is unaccountable and that self is exempt from the issue of truthfulness, then the entire issue of norming (and the embraced norma normans in such) becomes moot (for self). The issue has been changed from truth to power (claimed by self for self).



I hope that helps extend understanding of this praxis.




Pax




- Josiah








.

Doesn't work with Arius (or the Eunomians). Or with what was received before the NT was widely available, yet core belief was already consistent.

Again, it treats Scripture with undue authority vis a vis Christ.

But also, it wrests Scripture (and doctrine) away from the life lived in "the Way".
 
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Ortho_Cat

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Vines:
Apostle, Apostleship:
is, lit., "one sent forth" (apo, "from," stello, "to send"). "The word is used of the Lord Jesus to describe His relation to God, Hbr 3:1; see Jhn 17:3. The twelve disciples chosen by the Lord for special training were so called, Luk 6:13; 9:10. Paul, though he had seen the Lord Jesus, 1Cr 9:1; 15:8, had not 'companied with' the Twelve 'all the time' of His earthly ministry, and hence was not eligible for a place among them, according to Peter's description of the necessary qualifications, Act 1:22. Paul was commissioned directly, by the Lord Himself, after His Ascension, to carry the Gospel to the Gentiles.
"The word has also a wider reference. In Act 14:4, 14, it is used of Barnabas as well as of Paul; in Rom 16:7 of Andronicus and Junias. In 2Cr 8:23 (RV, margin) two unnamed brethren are called 'apostles of the churches;' in Phl 2:25 (RV, margin) Epaphroditus is referred to as 'your apostle.' It is used in 1Th 2:6 of Paul, Silas and Timothy, to define their relation to Christ." *
[* From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp. 59-60.]
Rev. 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

There are 12, yet others will claim it.

Rev. 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

But what's your point? That a bishop is the same as an apostle?

My point is that the first bishops were appointed by and succeeded the apostles, and that this succession continues today.
 
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Hentenza

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28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.


The verse is talking about gifts not the office. Try again.


:confused: Yes, and your point? I see no distinction here between "an office" and "a gift". This sounds more like a desperate attempt to cling to man-made traditions in the face of overwhelming scriptural evidence to the contrary. Too bad Paul and Luke (among others) disagree with you on what the criteria for what an apostle is.

Yes there is a big distinction. Show me where Paul and Luke disagree.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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You never read this, I know, but give it a shot. I highlighted in bold, blue font the part that you are ignorant about.

The Rule of Scripture in Norming (What Luther and Calvin called "Sola Scriptura").......<snip>
- Josiah .
I think we should make that a sticky on GT as you posted the same thing in another thread :)

http://www.christianforums.com/t7541281/#post57042186

Patience is a gift of mine.
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I'd do it:

The Rule of Scripture in Norming (What Luther and Calvin called "Sola Scriptura")
 
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