Sola Scriptural or Traditions of Men?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

How do you know that a tradition is inspired by God if God has not set it in order?

Simple.
Berean style.

 

[seeking.IAM]

...

As been written in 2 Timothy 3:16, All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness.

One cannot ignore the question, "What is this 'scripture' 2 Timothy is referencing?" Much of the New Testament had not been written by the time this letter was written. Were the earlier works that we know as the New Testament already embraced by the church as scripture? That doesn't work because Paul's letter to Timothy is thought to be written in 67 AD. Many scholars think Matthew was written between 80 & 90, AD for example. And certainly, the author couldn't be talking about the letter to Timothy itself as scripture because that would be a circular reference. Or was it a merely a reference to the Torah?

One also should not ignore the fact that oral tradition preceded scripture. The inspired authors wrote what they witnessed, heard, and were taught. Much of the New Testament was written long after the crucifixion into the second century. Before that there was oral tradition carried by the Apostles. Tradition shaped scripture which in turn has shaped new and continuing tradition. Tradition and scripture are inseparable.

And here for the sake of amusement is an element of tradition -->

 

[AngelOf Laodicea]

One cannot ignore the question, "What is this 'scripture' 2 Timothy is referencing?" Much of the New Testament had not been written by the time this letter was written. Were the earlier works that we know as the New Testament already embraced by the church as scripture? That doesn't work because Paul's letter to Timothy is thought to be written in 67 AD. Many scholars think Matthew was written between 80 & 90, AD for example. And certainly, the author couldn't be talking about the letter to Timothy itself as scripture because that would be a circular reference. Or was it a merely a reference to the Torah?

One also should not ignore the fact that oral tradition preceded scripture. The inspired authors wrote what they witnessed, heard, and were taught. Much of the New Testament was written long after the crucifixion into the second century. Before that there was oral tradition carried by the Apostles. Tradition shaped scripture which in turn has shaped new and continuing tradition. Tradition and scripture are inseparable.

And here for the sake of amusement is an element of tradition -->

2nd Peter 3:15-16 is indicative of the mindset of the early Christian leaders.
Peter clearly put Paul's letters inside of the same group as the rest of scripture.

As for oral tradition: you will have to verefy the accuracy of each specific oral tradition and reference the biblical source for each one or I will have to assume that it is questionable at best.

We aren't muslims here. We actually dont need blind faith in unsupported dogmas.

 

[דוד חֵן (David)]

How do we know that God will not reveal more or make clarifications outside the bible?

By lining up what God supposedly revealed by Scripture. God's words never contradict itself.

 

[civilwarbuff]

How do we know that God will not reveal more or make clarifications outside the bible?

Can you give a for instance?...Something that most Christians could relate to such as Communion as there is variation amongst what Christians believe and pratice.

 

[AngelOf Laodicea]

Can you give a for instance?...Something that most Christians could relate to such as Communion as there is variation amongst what Christians believe and pratice.

There is plenty in scripture about communion.
Why not just read it?

 

[civilwarbuff]

There is plenty in scripture about communion.
Why not just read it?

What is in scripture seems to be simple and straight forward yet different denoms have very different beliefs and practices about it, would you agree?

 

[דוד חֵן (David)]

What is in scripture seems to be simple and straight forward yet different denoms have very different beliefs and practices about it, would you agree?

I agree, but I wonder why. Oh yeah, it's because people had taken Traditions of Men > Scripture.

 

[civilwarbuff]

I agree, but I wonder why. Oh yeah, it's because people had taken Traditions of Men > Scripture.

I thought that was what we were here to talk about but rather than taking a shotgun approach why not select something that is common to most Christians that has beliefs and practice variations and see how that came about; was it through tradition or scripture? Seems better than just criticizing each other over those variatiions.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Tradition shaped scripture which in turn has shaped new and continuing tradition.

This ^^ is contrary to what YHWH, Y'SHUA nor SCRIPTURE says.

One also should not ignore the fact that oral tradition preceded scripture.

No matter if it preceded or not;
Y'SHUA exposed any that opposed YHWH'S WORD as false and taught / teaches all HIS disciples not to accept any if it is not completely true and if it is not in line and in harmony with HIS WORD.

 

[seeking.IAM]

Tradition shaped scripture which in turn has shaped new and continuing tradition. Tradition and scripture are inseparable.

This ^^ is contrary to what YHWH, Y'SHUA nor SCRIPTURE says.

Please explain how this is contrary. There was an oral history (tradition) that was recorded in writing (New Testament scripture). The written word (scripture) continues to influence our practice as Christians (tradition). Please explain how that is contrary to what God the Father, Jesus, or scripture says.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Apparently some people believe that the Holy Spirit does not inspire the leaders of the Church. In the next breath those same people will tell you the Holy Spirit inspires THEM.

It is to laugh!

 

[דוד חֵן (David)]

Apparently some people believe that the Holy Spirit does not inspire the leaders of the Church. In the next breath those same people will tell you the Holy Spirit inspires THEM.

It is to laugh!

I believe the Holy Spirit doesn't contradict "Holy Scripture"

 

[Steve Petersen]

I believe the Holy Spirit doesn't contradict "Holy Scripture"

Yeah, problem is we all have to interpret it. That is where it gets messy.

I suppose the next step would be to suggest a Holy Spirit-inspired interpretation.

 

[דוד חֵן (David)]

Yeah, problem is we all have to interpret it. That is where it gets messy.

I suppose the next step would be to suggest a Holy Spirit-inspired interpretation.

And what would that be sir?

 

[Goatee]

How do you know the tradition is sacred if it's not based on scripture?

What is your "sacred tradition" founded on specifically and how do you know that the foundation has Authority?

If you were a Catholic you would understand!

 

[דוד חֵן (David)]

If you were a Catholic you would understand!

Your authority is Vicarius Filii Dei. Mine is the Holy Spirit.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Your authority is Vicarius Filii Dei. Mine is the Holy Spirit.

See post #34. Thanks for making my point for me.

 

[dqhall]

Make no mistake, practices like kneeling down while praying are fine as long as it's done in humility before God. God doesn't care about your physical position while you pray, it's about your state of mind. Are you driven to prostrate yourself before God, or are you kneeling down for the sake of doing it? Tradition for the interests of tradition. Do as you are told, that's tradition.

Jesus was preaching his Sermon on the Mount.

Matthew 5:5 “When you pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Most certainly, I tell you, they have received their reward. 6 But you, when you pray, enter into your inner room, and having shut your door, pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. 7 In praying, don’t use vain repetitions, as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their much speaking. 8 Therefore don’t be like them, for your Father knows what things you need, before you ask him."

Jesus taught them the Lord's Prayer. This prayer contains the words: "Thy will be done; on earth as it is in heaven." (Matt 6:10)

 

[samir]

Sola Scriptural or Traditions of Men?

Sola scriptura is a tradition of men. Although scripture is certainly God-breathed and useful, it isn't all we have of God's revelation.

Can truth be known without scripture as the measuring rod?

Absolutely! The earliest Christians knew the truth without scripture. They didn't need scripture because they had the Church, founded by Jesus and guided by the Holy Spirit, to tell them the truth.