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Sola scriptura?

thecolorsblend

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First of all, is sola scriptura even internally consistent
I don't think so.

Oddly enough, the story of the Bereans is cited as scriptural evidence of "sola scriptura". That's kind of weird because what the Bereans did was accept St. Paul's teachings about Our Lord when they realized that those teachings harmonized with the Old Testament.

That is the direct opposite of "sola scriptura". And Sacred Scripture refers to the Bereans as noble for doing what they did.

As always, I find "sola scriptura" to be a logical dead end.
 
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reformed05

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I come from a Protestant evangelical background. I am struggling with the position of sola scriptura and would like to hear your thoughts.

First of all, is sola scriptura even internally consistent? For we wouldn't even have the scriptures without the tradition of the church. It was men, not God, that determined the canon of the Bible. Sola scriptura itself seems to be a philosophical argument, not an exegetical one. The scriptures don't make that claim for itself, nor give the scope of divine inspiration.

Isn't the appeal to the scriptures first and foremost an appeal to church tradition? For the scriptures we have are determined by men and tradition through church history (ie God did not appear to me and tell me what books were canonical). That a collection of writings are published together in the same volume is not the authority. The Reformers are the ones that excluded the Apocrypha from the Protestant canon, after all, not God. Those men decided that those books were not canonical, because they supported doctrines they did not agree with (eg purgatory, praying to saints, etc). Other men, centuries before, did the same for the gnostic gospels. We cannot appeal to the book of Hebrews or Peter or Revelation vs the Didache vs the Shepherd of Hermas vs Clement vs the Apocrypha vs the gospel of Thomas without first having had human beings agree/decide for us which is canonical (the scriptures don't in themselves include a table of contents).

If it's not an appeal to church tradition, on what other basis can we understand canonicity? And therefore inspiration and inerrancy? From this perspective, it seems both Protestants and Catholics appeal to scripture (at least to some degree) but obviously disagree on the scope of the canon. What is an appeal to scripture to the Catholic is not an appeal to scripture to the Protestant.
deciding what was cannon and what was not was a concentrated painstaking process over long period of time. It did not involve any persons or church's preferred doctrine. Everything had to pass a rigid test to be considered or eliminated.
In regards to the OT all of it had been written by the time of Christ and accepted by the Jewish community. The last book, Malachi, was finished around 430 B.C. It does not contain the Apocrypha, because it was written after Malachi and ATTACHED to the OT about200-150B.C.
Over the centuries 3 principles were applied to determine what writings were inspired by God. It must have a recognized prophet or apostle as it's author. Or one associated with them a in Mark, Luke,Hebrews, James and Jude. It
had to have general consensus by the church as inspired. It could not disagree or contradict previous Scriptures.
I think we can trust God to oversee this process as it is His Word.
 
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Albion

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Oddly enough, the story of the Bereans is cited as scriptural evidence of "sola scriptura".
How so? I don't believe I've ever read a post in which that was cited, and there have been plenty of them dealing with this same topic on CF.

That's kind of weird because what the Bereans did was accept St. Paul's teachings about Our Lord when they realized that those teachings harmonized with the Old Testament.

That is the direct opposite of "sola scriptura".
...and you are citing Scripture as your reason for coming to that conclusion?? Isn't that a contradiction?
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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I don't think so.

Oddly enough, the story of the Bereans is cited as scriptural evidence of "sola scriptura". That's kind of weird because what the Bereans did was accept St. Paul's teachings about Our Lord when they realized that those teachings harmonized with the Old Testament.

That is the direct opposite of "sola scriptura". And Sacred Scripture refers to the Bereans as noble for doing what they did.

As always, I find "sola scriptura" to be a logical dead end.
Yet in reading your post, the Bereans seem to employ the same interpretive standards as Confessional Lutherans; using Scripture to give context to Scripture, and Scripture to interpret Scripture.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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deciding what was cannon and what was not was a concentrated painstaking process over long period of time. It did not involve any persons or church's preferred doctrine. Everything had to pass a rigid test to be considered or eliminated.
In regards to the OT all of it had been written by the time of Christ and accepted by the Jewish community. The last book, Malachi, was finished around 430 B.C. It does not contain the Apocrypha, because it was written after Malachi and ATTACHED to the OT about200-150B.C.
Over the centuries 3 principles were applied to determine what writings were inspired by God. It must have a recognized prophet or apostle as it's author. Or one associated with them a in Mark, Luke,Hebrews, James and Jude. It
had to have general consensus by the church as inspired. It could not disagree or contradict previous Scriptures.
I think we can trust God to oversee this process as it is His Word.
Agreed, however, we can't always trust "men" to interpret scripture properly.
 
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~Anastasia~

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deciding what was cannon and what was not was a concentrated painstaking process over long period of time. It did not involve any persons or church's preferred doctrine. Everything had to pass a rigid test to be considered or eliminated.
In regards to the OT all of it had been written by the time of Christ and accepted by the Jewish community. The last book, Malachi, was finished around 430 B.C. It does not contain the Apocrypha, because it was written after Malachi and ATTACHED to the OT about200-150B.C.
Over the centuries 3 principles were applied to determine what writings were inspired by God. It must have a recognized prophet or apostle as it's author. Or one associated with them a in Mark, Luke,Hebrews, James and Jude. It
had to have general consensus by the church as inspired. It could not disagree or contradict previous Scriptures.
I think we can trust God to oversee this process as it is His Word.
Not to be argumentative, but depending on what you refer to as "Apocrypha" ...

The early Church accepted the books that were part of the Septuagint as canon, as they have remained canon for those early sees and those in communion with them since the first centuries. The naming and numbering varies, but that's a general statement (and some of the Oriental Orthodox include some extra).

It's true that acceptance of NT books was a rigorous process though. In a sense, we could say it did relate to the Church's doctrine, since so many spurious works (like the psuedo gospels) were rejected on that basis and never read within the churches. But since you mention the consensus, I think we are in agreement. :)
 
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thecolorsblend

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Yet in reading your post, the Bereans seem to employ the same interpretive standards as Confessional Lutherans; using Scripture to give context to Scripture, and Scripture to interpret Scripture.
What scripture?! St. Paul preached. His preaching aligned with Sacred Scripture.

Either way, the Bereans did not abide by "sola scriptura". It's plainly obvious.
 
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It is like failed political/economic systems. I'll use the common example of Socialism.

"Socialism failed in country X."
"But that wasn't real Socialism. They didn't do it right."
"Socialism failed in country Y, too."
"But that's not real Socialism, either. You don't understand the definition of real Socialism. If people would apply real Socialism, it would work."
"Socialism has failed everywhere it has been tried. Has everyone gotten Socialism wrong, then?"
"Yes. If I could be in charge of implementing Socialism, we'd get it right."

That is essentially how Sola Scriptura works. Its defenders will argue about its "real definition" and how everyone who disagrees with it doesn't understand how it really works. But Sola Scriptura has never worked, doesn't work, will never work, and can never work. No matter what people want to say about its textbook definition, failure is built into its DNA. And failure is built into its DNA for the simple reason that it is man-made and wrong.
 
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questionman

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It is like failed political/economic systems. I'll use the common example of Socialism.

"Socialism failed in country X."
"But that wasn't real Socialism. They didn't do it right."
"Socialism failed in country Y, too."
"But that's not real Socialism, either. You don't understand the definition of real Socialism. If people would apply real Socialism, it would work."
"Socialism has failed everywhere it has been tried. Has everyone gotten Socialism wrong, then?"
"Yes. If I could be in charge of implementing Socialism, we'd get it right."

That is essentially how Sola Scriptura works. It's defenders will argue about its "real definition" and how everyone who disagrees with it doesn't understand how it really works. But Sola Scriptura has never worked, doesn't work, will never work, and can never work. No matter what people want to say about its textbook definition, failure is built into its DNA. And failure is built into its DNA for the simple reason that it is man-made and wrong.

I must admit, that is the first time I've heard sola scriptura equated with Socialism. xD
 
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Knee V

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Hopefully, the last...
Hopefully everyone understands that analogies have limited and narrow scopes and that Sola Scriptura was not being compared to Socialism.
 
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Screenshot_20191113-193641_Brave.jpg
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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It is like failed political/economic systems. I'll use the common example of Socialism.

"Socialism failed in country X."
"But that wasn't real Socialism. They didn't do it right."
"Socialism failed in country Y, too."
"But that's not real Socialism, either. You don't understand the definition of real Socialism. If people would apply real Socialism, it would work."
"Socialism has failed everywhere it has been tried. Has everyone gotten Socialism wrong, then?"
"Yes. If I could be in charge of implementing Socialism, we'd get it right."

That is essentially how Sola Scriptura works. Its defenders will argue about its "real definition" and how everyone who disagrees with it doesn't understand how it really works. But Sola Scriptura has never worked, doesn't work, will never work, and can never work. No matter what people want to say about its textbook definition, failure is built into its DNA. And failure is built into its DNA for the simple reason that it is man-made and wrong.
The think is it does work (in it's original context") for us confessional Lutherans in that it validates and supports tradition. Sola Scriptura is often misused the same way as the Law can be (as a destructive hammer). In much of Protestantism, Sola Scriptura has been used to irradiate all traces of "Tradition", and in turn ends up creating something that not only is at odds with orthodox and historic tradition, but at odds with Scripture. The only time a "traditional" teaching is rejected in Confessional Lutheranism is when it is clearly at odds with, or forbidden by Scripture. There are not a whole lot of those either.
 
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hedrick

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I would suggest a more pragmatic definition of sola scriptura, which is more in line with what the mainline and Catholic traditions currently think it is.

Ultimately our authority is God. And since Christ is his Word made flesh, Christ. But we know God only through his revelation. Aside from private revelations, he revealed himself primarily through his actions in history, through a few people that we call Prophets, and through Jesus’ life and teaching.

If you lived in the 1st Cent, of course you’d have a number of ways to get Jesus’ teaching. But as a practical matter, at this point the New Testament is the primary source. Similarly, whatever you think of its accuracy (and I accept critical scholarship) the OT is the only primary source for God’s interaction with Israel.

By the nature of Scripture, it doesn’t solve all questions for Christians. God left us with the authority loosing and binding. That gives the Church lots of freedom to make decisions on practical matters, and to formulate theology. But still, the ultimate source of the principles we use for decision-making are God’s revelations. So we need to check on a continuing basis that what we’re doing is really consistent with that.

By consistent with I mean not so much that it doesn’t contradict the letter of anything in the Bible as that it carries out Christ’s intentions for us and for our role in the world.

This view isn’t actually so far from the current Catholic views. I differ primarily because I’m not so confident as Catholics are that the Church always makes decisions consistent with Christ’s intentions. I think that it has made many decisions which might have been reasonable when they made them but no longer are right, and also many mistakes. Thus I’m much more willing to say of a traditional position that it doesn’t really reflect Jesus’ intention, given what we know now.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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I would suggest a more pragmatic definition of sola scriptura, which is more in line with what the mainline and Catholic traditions currently think it is.

Ultimately our authority is God. And since Christ is his Word made flesh, Christ. But we know God only through his revelation. Aside from private revelations, he revealed himself primarily through his actions in history, through a few people that we call Prophets, and through Jesus’ life and teaching.

If you lived in the 1st Cent, of course you’d have a number of ways to get Jesus’ teaching. But as a practical matter, at this point the New Testament is the primary source. Similarly, whatever you think of its accuracy (and I accept critical scholarship) the OT is the only primary source for God’s interaction with Israel.

By the nature of Scripture, it doesn’t solve all questions for Christians. God left us with the authority loosing and binding. That gives the Church lots of freedom to make decisions on practical matters, and to formulate theology. But still, the ultimate source of the principles we use for decision-making are God’s revelations. So we need to check on a continuing basis that what we’re doing is really consistent with that.

By consistent with I mean not so much that it doesn’t contradict the letter of anything in the Bible as that it carries out Christ’s intentions for us and for our role in the world.

This view isn’t actually so far from the current Catholic views. I differ primarily because I’m not so confident as Catholics are that the Church always makes decisions consistent with Christ’s intentions. I think that it has made many decisions which might have been reasonable when they made them but no longer are right, and also many mistakes. Thus I’m much more willing to say of a traditional position that it doesn’t really reflect Jesus’ intention, given what we know now.
Hedrick, you make a lot of good points here. Pastor and I had a similar discussion a little over a week ago. There is nothing wrong with "Tradition" in so far as it does not contradict Scripture; but when the two are at odds, then it is Tradition that must take the back seat. Problem is that most, if not all, of the Churches that came out of the radical reformation rather than the Lutheran Reformation also claim Sola Scriptura, but due to the application of different interpretive standards, it comes out meaning and being applied way differently than Confessional Lutherans or traditional Anglicans would do. i.e. it is often used to negate all tradition.
 
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hedrick

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Hedrick, you make a lot of good points here. Pastor and I had a similar discussion a little over a week ago. There is nothing wrong with "Tradition" in so far as it does not contradict Scripture; but when the two are at odds, then it is Tradition that must take the back seat. Problem is that most, if not all, of the Churches that came out of the radical reformation rather than the Lutheran Reformation also claim Sola Scriptura, but due to the application of different interpretive standards, it comes out meaning and being applied way differently than Confessional Lutherans or traditional Anglicans would do. i.e. it is often used to negate all tradition.
I worry about the term "tradition," because of how it often works in practice. Catholics, and various types of Protestant each have their own traditions, which in my opinion de facto function pretty much the same as 16th Cent Catholic tradition. That is, they color the interpretation of Scripture too much.

Yet the nature of Scripture leaves us with lots of responsibility for deciding how to apply it, and with remarkably little in specific doctrine. That makes interpretation inevitable, and in my opinion that interpretation should be done by churches and not isolated individuals. (The power of loosing and binding was given to the Church, not each individual.)

There's no formula for dealing with this, except to say that we should at least start by trying to understand the intent of the Scriptural writers with as little as possible in the way of preconceptions. but that the Church still has a role to play that goes beyond just finding all answers in Scripture.

Tradition, however, is a powerful force if not checked. In my view, any tradition that never changes, whether Catholic or Protestant confessional, is a bad sign. Given the major changes in our understanding of the 1st Cent context of the NT, not to mention the implications of the Enlightenment, any group that hasn't made any changes in its understanding of Scripture, and doctrine that comes from it, seems pretty likely to be letting its tradition get the upper hand.

I also note that there is now a common community of Scriptural scholarship among groups that accept critical scholarship, with little difference among Protestants, Catholics, and ana-Baptists (though that doesn't imply complete agreement among interpreters). I think that's a pretty good sign.
 
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FWIW, and not to be argumentative, but we don't all see necessary change as a good thing.

I'm not looking to argue, but only state a perspective. If the earliest Church interpreted the writings in a particular way, we would hope the Church would have maintained their understanding and the last thing we would wish is to change what was handed down based on modern interpretations or understanding.

From our point of view, surely the earliest Christians knew better what the Apostles taught them directly than we can deduce 2000 years divorced from the actual living experience of early Christianity.

It would be different if there were no living continuity and we were trying to reconstruct early understandings based only on textual data. Perhaps this is why it is understandable that some contemporary Christians find this a valid alternative. But we could hope to hold fast to a more constant witness.
 
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thecolorsblend

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I worry about the term "tradition," because of how it often works in practice. Catholics, and various types of Protestant each have their own traditions, which in my opinion de facto function pretty much the same as 16th Cent Catholic tradition. That is, they color the interpretation of Scripture too much.

Yet the nature of Scripture leaves us with lots of responsibility for deciding how to apply it, and with remarkably little in specific doctrine. That makes interpretation inevitable, and in my opinion that interpretation should be done by churches and not isolated individuals. (The power of loosing and binding was given to the Church, not each individual.)

There's no formula for dealing with this, except to say that we should at least start by trying to understand the intent of the Scriptural writers with as little as possible in the way of preconceptions. but that the Church still has a role to play that goes beyond just finding all answers in Scripture.

Tradition, however, is a powerful force if not checked. In my view, any tradition that never changes, whether Catholic or Protestant confessional, is a bad sign. Given the major changes in our understanding of the 1st Cent context of the NT, not to mention the implications of the Enlightenment, any group that hasn't made any changes in its understanding of Scripture, and doctrine that comes from it, seems pretty likely to be letting its tradition get the upper hand.

I also note that there is now a common community of Scriptural scholarship among groups that accept critical scholarship, with little difference among Protestants, Catholics, and ana-Baptists (though that doesn't imply complete agreement among interpreters). I think that's a pretty good sign.
Tradition in the manner you describe it is continuity of belief. As post #58 says, it would stand to reason that the first century Church was the generation who received all these things and they probably know more about what they believed than can be adduced from reading an incomplete historical narrative (which the first century Church themselves wrote!) so it doesn't make sense to discard their interpretation and viewpoints.

In fact, this is one of my critiques of Protestantism. The "reformation" has had the suspicious track record of constantly deleting more and more doctrines from the traditional Christian faith. Assumptions made by the "reformers" five centuries ago which were not controversial at all in their time are called into question today, or even outright rejected. One wonders if some Protestants will even be recognizably Christian before another century passes.
 
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hedrick

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Tradition in the manner you describe it is continuity of belief. As post #58 says, it would stand to reason that the first century Church was the generation who received all these things and they probably know more about what they believed than can be adduced from reading an incomplete historical narrative (which the first century Church themselves wrote!) so it doesn't make sense to discard their interpretation and viewpoints.

In fact, this is one of my critiques of Protestantism. The "reformation" has had the suspicious track record of constantly deleting more and more doctrines from the traditional Christian faith. Assumptions made by the "reformers" five centuries ago which were not controversial at all in their time are called into question today, or even outright rejected. One wonders if some Protestants will even be recognizably Christian before another century passes.
But no current tradition is actually 1st Cent. The Eastern church is probably oldest, but that tradition continued to develop at least into the 7th Cent. By that time much of the original 1st Cent context had been -- for quite defensible reasons -- lost by the translation into the Greco-Roman context that started with the Apologists.

It's unreasonable to expect any 21st Cent church to simply reproduce 1st Cent belief. We have the same problem as the Apologists: we're a different culture facing different questions than the 1st Cent church. But in many cases I think we're better off to do our reinterpretation directly from NT sources, rather than starting with a tradition that is already a reinterpretation.

This is to some extent what the Reformers thought they were doing. But we have a lot better sources than they do, both for the 1st Cent and even for patristic and medieval theology.

Of course much of the development during the patristic period and later was dealing with misunderstandings that are still dangers. If we don't want to fall into the same potholes we should look at both the strengths and weaknesses of tradition.
 
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