Groovy said:
How?
Paul speaks of the scirptures as a tool . . something useful . .
How can a tool be equal to a person?
Are you saying that all of Sacred Tradition is contained in the bible?
Let me ask you this . .
In the Early Church, you have admitted that all the Christians had were the Old Testament . .
Where were the teachings of the apostles in all that? The apostles came after the Old Testament?
If the apostles had never written anything down, are you saying all the teachings of Jesus would have vanished, and all we would have would be the Old Testament?
Without Sacred Tradition . . yes I agree . . for all of the Church's teachings are contained within it . .
But how does that equate to the bible?
It seems to me that you are making a case for all of Sacred Tradition being contained within the Bible . . . That there is no such thing as oral Sacred Tradition .. . . am I right?
If not, what place do you see Oral Sacred Tradition playing in the Church?
And where does it say in the bible that the bible is God's main tool?
Where does it this anywhere?
Where does Church teaching anywhere say this?
Also, the "useful"/"Helpful" depends on the translation you read
Oh . . not at all . . it depends on the original language . . not on a translation at all . . .
Here .. look at this again:
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Now look at the original word translated "profitable"
From Strong's Greek Dictionary:
G5624
ὠφέλιμος
ōphelimos
o-fel'-ee-mos
From a form of G3786; helpful or serviceable, that is, advantageous: - profit (-able).
There is nothing at all there that indicates necessity . . only that it is helpful, servicalbe, . . . as a tool is . . G5624
ὠφέλιμος
ōphelimos
o-fel'-ee-mos
From a form of G3786; helpful or serviceable, that is, advantageous: - profit (-able).
Look again here:
G5624
ὠφέλιμος
ōphelimos
Thayer Definition:
1) profitable
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayers/Strongs Number: from a form of G3786
ὠφέλιμος
ōphelimos
Thayer Definition:
1) profitable
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayers/Strongs Number: from a form of G3786
What does profitable mean?
From Webster's 1828 dictionary:
Profitable
PROF'ITABLE, a. Yielding or bringing profit or gain; gainful; lucrative; as a profitable trade; profitable business; a profitable study or profession.
1. Useful; advantageous.
What was so profitable to the empire, became fatal to the emperor.
Profitable
PROF'ITABLE, a. Yielding or bringing profit or gain; gainful; lucrative; as a profitable trade; profitable business; a profitable study or profession.
1. Useful; advantageous.
What was so profitable to the empire, became fatal to the emperor.
There is nothing that indicate necessity here . . only usefulness . . as a tool is . . .
Look again . . show me the places where, when He spoke to the people, the common people, he used scripture . . He used parables, stories . . but not scripture that I can remember . .
No . . we pattern them after the Church's teachings . . the Church uses the bible as one of its tools to teach from . . for it is helpful, useful, profitable for doctrine, instruction in righteousness . .
But nothing in the bible says it is needed . .
Plesae show me in the bible where it says the bible is NECESSARY for these things?
I can't find it . .
But I can find where the Church is necessary!
Which places it over scripture . .
OK . . let's look at what useful means . .
I have a table . . on that table are 3 sources of light . . a lamp, candles and a flashlight . .
I am talking to you and I say, those candles are useful for light . .
Am I at all suggesting to you tha they are needful? Especially when there are other sources of light present?
To take the word "thoroughly" that occurs in the next verse and apply it to the verse we are discussing is to make gramatical nonsense of this passage . .
Tthe bible is one of the tools of equipping . . if one has a good understanding of its contents, its use, how to weild it, then they are thoroughly equipped . . and Paul is speaking in particular here to a Bishop . . one who is required to teach and lead the Church . . . If He did not have access to the bible, are you suggesting he could no longer effectively lead the flock under his care?
If you are, I have to strongly disagree . . If he did not have a bible, he could still teach, insruct, reprove, etc . .
Now look at this passage again:
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Paul is speaking to a Bishop regarding the usefulness of scripture for 4 things . .2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
- doctrine
- reproof
- correction
- instruction in righteousness
After these 4 things are mentioned, Paul goes onto say "that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. "
What thoroughly furnishes a man of God unto all good works? The scriptures?
OR Doctrine, Reproof, Correction, Instruction in Righteousness?
There is some room for debate about this . .
And how does any of that mandate an understanding of being NECESSARY ???
Candles are useful for light . .so are lamps . . so are flashlights . .
(by the way, what is the source of your definitions?)
Peace in Him!
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