Sola Scriptura?

[thereselittleflower]

They got the Scriptures same way the Jews did: Written Tradition.

Really? There was no such thing as ORAL Sacred Tradition for the Jews? I think it would be a good idea to brush up on some of this . .


As I said above, even Jesus taught from their Sacred Traidtion . . we see this when He used the Seat of Moses and that the people were to obey the Scribers and Pharisees BECAUSE they sat in the Seat of Moses . .

Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

​

Show me where the Seat of Moses is found in the Old Testament?


Jesus appealed to Sacred Oral Tradition as His authoritative base for His teaching . .

Those Apostles had good memories.

Oh . . the Holy Spirit had absolutely nothing to do with it?

Didn't Christ promise that the Holy Spirit would bring to their rememberance all that He had taught them?

Where does it say that He promised that the Holy Spirit would help them write it ALL done? OR that they would write any of it idown?

Can't you remember 30 years ago clskinner?

HoLe In OnE

does he have to ???

What would that prove or not prove?


doesn't seem to be related to anything we are discusing . .unless you want to assert that Jesus promised Hhim that the Holy Spirit would cause him to remember 30 years ago?





Peace in Him!

 

[Groovy]

The apostle Paul's USE OF the Old Testament had to be examined . .

Peace in Him!

Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

"To see if what Paul said was true" i.e. if it alligned with Scripture, which, of course it did. They did not examine the Scripture to see if Paul's use of the Scripture was true.

Blessings in Christ
√Groovy

 

[Benedicta00]

Did they forget to bring their Bibles?

What "bible" did they have?

What do you mean by Tradition? The Apostles heard Jesus first hand, then they wrote about him.

They wrote pastoral letters, John wrote a gospel account and he wrote revelation but the others wrote to the faithful teaching and instructing them in the faith much the same way our bishops and pope write to us now. They did not sit down and consciously write the NT with it in mind that this will become Scared Scripture for all ages to come.

They had the Torah, which is the Law. They had the books of the Prophets, the only thing they did not have, as Groovy said, was the NT.

So? Is there a point to this?

You know what I find interesting? Jesus already had left all of His revealed truth with the Church long before Paul, who wrote most of the NT mind you, was ever converted to Christ. While he was still a murder and a persecutor, the other apostles were teaching and preaching Christ’s word. What did they use? No bible, just their oral witness. In fact, Paul killed St. Stephan… for what? Because he was orally teaching the faith, not because he was handing out bibles giving bible study.

 

[Groovy]

What’s changed IYO? Sacred Tradition has not changed Groovy. You do realize there is Sacred Tradition which is God’s word and then there is just tradition which are rules and disciplines and Church laws? Those can change but ST can not and has not ever changed.

Sacred Tradition never changed, application of Sacred Tradition changed.

Blessings in Christ
√Groovy

 

[Benedicta00]

"To see if what Paul said was true" i.e. if it alligned with Scripture, which, of course it did. They did not examine the Scripture to see if Paul's use of the Scripture was true.

Blessings in Christ
√Groovy

They had the OT scriptures to check... what did the Gentiles use?

Also, Paul even says in Galatians that it was Peter and James who gave him his authority that they judged that he was sent from God. He never said that it was the OT that gave him his authority, h said it was Peter and James, the Church. It was established long before Paul came along.

 

[Carrye]

They got the Scriptures same way the Jews did: Written Tradition.

The Jews didn't have written tradition in the beginning either. All writing comes long after tradition has already been established. The Christian NT is no different from the Hebrew Torah in that respect.

Those Apostles had good memories.

No one's disputing their memory. The Apostles were inspired by God to write what they had witnessed. The point is, what happened in the meantime? There was a good deal of time when there was no written account of the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. So how was the gospel spread during that time? By word of mouth, from the Apostles to others. There was no writing about it.

Can't you remember 30 years ago clskinner?

No I can't. That was before I was born.

 

[Benedicta00]

Sacred Tradition never changed, application of Sacred Tradition changed.

Blessings in Christ
√Groovy

You gotta cite Groovy if we are to take you seriously. Can you cite what application of ST has changed? Give me one example.

 

[thereselittleflower]

TLF, your first post was awesome! thank you!

It is worth quoting again if it were not so big.

I agree, and that did help with the clarity.

Can I call you by your name? TLF is so impersonal.

√Groovy

Hi Groovy . .I am glad it was helpful.

I don't go by my real name online . . it would be too easy for someone to figure out who I am . . . Not because I am any one special, but my family is known about well enough in some circle here it would be easy to figure out who I am.

If you want to call me Therese, to make it seem less impersonal, that would be fine


Peace in Him!

 

[Highway of Life]

What "bible" did they have?

Very, very Old rugged paper

So? Is there a point to this?

Yep! They had.... you guessed it! SCRIPTURE!!!

What did they use? No bible, just their oral witness. In fact, Paul killed St. Stephan… for what? Because he was orally teaching the faith, not because he was handing out bibles giving bible study.

What did they use? They used.... you guessed it! SCRIPTURE!!! i.e. Written Tradition, Sacred Tradition, Oral Tradition, Torah -- law -- and Prophetic books -- i.e. The books of the Prophets.... Scripture. Which IS the Bible today.

HoL In OnE

 

[Carrye]

What did they use? They used.... you guessed it! SCRIPTURE!!! i.e. Written Tradition, Sacred Tradition, Oral Tradition

Tradition is different from Scripture. One cannot equate the two.

 

[Highway of Life]

No I can't. That was before I was born.

I know, me too, I can't remember that far either.

HoL In OnE

 

[Highway of Life]

BTW, FYI... FATWDK... the Apostles and their memories was a joke. I know that the Holy Spirit inspired them, I hope nobody took me wrong

HoL In OnE

 

[Benedicta00]

Very, very Old rugged paper
Yep! They had.... you guessed it! SCRIPTURE!!!

What did they use? They used.... you guessed it! SCRIPTURE!!! i.e. Written Tradition, Sacred Tradition, Oral Tradition, Torah -- law -- and Prophetic books -- i.e. The books of the Prophets.... Scripture. Which IS the Bible today.

HoL In OnE

No... they didn't. We did not have the scriptures in a canon until 400 years later. We had the OT scriptures and guess what? The apostles said that Jesus opened their eyes to those OT scriptures after he rose before he ascended. This is what they taught- what Jesus taught them and John tells us that everything that was taught to them all the books could not contain them. They orally taught us the meaning of the OT. They did not tote a OT bible around teaching from it. They taught Christianity as it was taught to them by Christ.

 

[Carrye]

Sorry HoL, I'm failing to see your point.

 

[Highway of Life]

The Apostles were inspired by God to write what they had witnessed. The point is, what happened in the meantime? There was a good deal of time when there was no written account of the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. So how was the gospel spread during that time? By word of mouth, from the Apostles to others. There was no writing about it.

How do we know that there was no written account? There could have been. But Jesus was converting people before he was crucified, and he used Scripture to do it.

HoL In OnE

 

[ps139]

Do you know when the first gospel was written?
How did people learn about Jesus before that Gospel was written?

 

[Carrye]

How do we know that there was no written account? There could have been. But Jesus was converting people before he was crucified, and he used Scripture to do it.

But "there could have been" is not a good argument. Where are these documents? Besides, this is right in line with human thought and action. People in antiquity didn't place the same importance on writing things down immediately as we do. Not everyone could read. Even those who could taught the others. The masses listened to the teachings of the scribes, and weren't left to figure things out for themselves.

Jesus didn't convert people with the scriptures, he did it with his example - his life, miracles, and signs. The well educated Jews were the first to condemn him. They knew the scriptures better than anyone, and by all rights should have been the first to recognize him. He was who their scriptures (which they knew so well) talked about.

 

[Benedicta00]

How do we know that there was no written account?

Written account from who? Who would have written it?

There could have been. But Jesus was converting people before he was crucified, and he used Scripture to do it.

No offense but you really don't know what you are talking about. Jesus is God- Jesus did not have to use scripture to convert anyone. Anything that he speaks is God's word because he is God, OT scripture did not/does not trump Him. That is a very false dichotomy, pitting Jesus’ oral word against OT scripture.

 

[Highway of Life]

No... they didn't. We did not have the scriptures in a canon until 400 years later. We had the OT scriptures and guess what? The apostles said that Jesus opened their eyes to those OT scriptures after he rose before he ascended. This is what they taught- what Jesus taught them and John tells us that everything that was taught to them all the books could not contain them. They orally taught us the meaning of the OT. They did not tote a OT bible around teaching from it. They taught Christianity as it was taught to them by Christ.

Okay, this is understandable, but how can you explain Acts 17:11?

HIghway

 

[Highway of Life]

Do you know when the first gospel was written?
How did people learn about Jesus before that Gospel was written?

30 years after Jesus Died. Orally I suppose. But I am assuming... please understand, it is only an assumption: that they must have wrote something. Even something that was not used in the current Bible today.

Highway