• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured Sola Scriptura, the Pail of Orthodoxy and the living God

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by frogoon234, May 14, 2019.

  1. frogoon234

    frogoon234 Active Member

    476
    +71
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    I believe it is with in the pail of orthodoxy to on some level have a relationship with the living God. We can argue about what that exactly means.

    Sola Scriptura is important especially in an online forum and even in a physical church. For the former because we don't know each other's personalities. In the latter because christians on some level should conform to their brothers and sisters.

    However it is a common idea in the Pail of Orthodoxy that we should experience to some degree or on some level a real relationship with Jesus Christ (who is the living God).

    Questions or comments?
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

    +4,024
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single
    I'll give you an example of why sola scriptura simply doesn't work. Jesus said:

    Jhn 6:53 - ... “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.

    That is the origin of the Christian belief that the Eucharist is the flesh and blood of Christ. Paul confirms that belief in his letter to the Corinthians:

    1Co 10:16 - The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

    Yet there are numerous people in this forum who deny that the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ.

    Either it is or it is not. Based on sola scriptura, what is truth?
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  3. frogoon234

    frogoon234 Active Member

    476
    +71
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Well, i'm not sure. I'll have to do a google or bing search about evidence of why Sola Scriptura is necessary. Then i'll have to do a poor attempt at figuring it out.

    Personally i believe only Jesus possesses the ability to turn physical bread into human flesh.
    Just my opinion.
     
  4. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

    +4,024
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single

    [​IMG]Mat 18:20 - For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
     
  5. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,745
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    The bible says God is a rock... can we go outside, pick him up in a field, and worship him? No... why? Because it is a metaphor. The bible calls Jesus a lamb... but he lacks 4 legs, a tail and fur. Literal? No... in both cases we have a literal object being used in an abstract manner to give us a picture of God's greatness or work. So when Jesus, in his body and sitting on a chair, holds up a cup of wine and claims it is his blood BEFORE his blood was shed... then why do we take that literally? I don't care that you do.... but don't assume that because you have reached another conclusion that it means others don't take the bible seriously or as their sole source of answers relating to God and His will. I mean, I could do the same and direct it at you... and insist that, since you take the blood cup literally... that to be consistent you need to take the rock or lamb literally. But I know better. I am hoping you do too. I am not in rebellion because I don't take the cup as literally his blood... because he held it up before he shed any blood and was in his body when he held up the bread and said it was his body. I see it, clearly, as a memorial and that the work is done and THAT WORK is what is memorialized in the pictures presented in the bread and wine. I don't see it as a repeating event week after week.

    I am not in rebellion, I have simply drawn a different conclusion based on reasons I shared above. The bible is full of metaphors... and I see this as another. I love God... if He shows me different, I will accept it.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  6. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

    +4,024
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single
    Can you find someone who lived within the first one thousand years of Christian history who agrees with you?
     
  7. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,745
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Ah yea... what you can't do is show me anyone who agrees with you before the year 100AD. Yeshua said and did what he did at a Passover Sedar. He held up a specific cup and a specific piece of matzah during specific times of that meal and said what he said about them. What he never said was, "do this weekly." He said, "when you do this," which meant "during your future Passover meals." Communion should be done once a year, during the same meal, using the same cup (the 3rd of 4) and the same bread (afikomen) and you can't show anyone doing anything different until after 100AD.

    I really don't care what you do as long as what you are doing is based on a firm conviction based on the information you have. But to demean others or infer that they are not as serious about Scripture as you are... runs pretty close (if not nails head on) the definition of bearing false witness.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  8. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

    +4,024
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single
    Sure I can. Here's the apostle Paul:

    1Co 11:29 - For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.
     
  9. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,745
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    What I find a little ironic here is that, in order to defend my position about "solo scripture" you want me to go OUTSIDE THE BIBLE to do it. :) My answer is in my first post.... there are metaphors all over the bible. God is not literally a rock, Jesus is not literally a lamb, Paul is not literally a drink offering (etc. etc. etc.). So, because of these examples, and because he hadn't shed his blood yet and was in his body at that time... when he held up the wine and bread I take it as metaphoric. Had he done this after the death, burial, and resurrection I might see it differently. But that this point he was IN HIS BODY and hadn't shed any blood yet. Thus, it can't be literal.
     
  10. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,745
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    And that doesn't prove he isn't talking about Passover. Paul encouraged us to keep the Passover, remember?

    1Co 5:7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.
    1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
     
  11. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

    +4,024
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single
    He is talking about the Eucharist. He even goes so far as to say people get sick and die from participating in an unworthy manner.

    Now I believe the point is made regarding sola scriptura. There's not much sense in relying on the bible alone if no one agrees what the bible means.
     
  12. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,745
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    The word Eucharist isn't in the text.... he is a Jewish rabbi talking about unleavened bread which is tied to Passover. The context is very plain... even the use of "feast" is clear. The word is heortazō which is tied to "festival" more than a meal. Here is that same word used in the Greek OT:

    Lev. 23:41 You shall keep it as a feast to the Lord for seven days in the year. It shall be a statute forever in your generations. You shall celebrate it in the seventh month.

    But all that aside... we have not been perfected. We shouldn't expect to see perfection in ourselves yet. Therefore, we all have error.... I might be wrong about this, or you might be... or we both might be? But where you see reason for division, I see two brothers coming to a different conclusion and doing the best they can, in love of God, under the conditions we are in. Whatever is the exact truth will be made obvious in the days to come.
     
  13. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,745
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Again, and finally.... Yeshua had not been whipped yet, had not been nailed to the cross yet, and not spilled his blood yet. If when he held up the bread and cup it was after those events happened, I would likely see it differently. But because he held them up before those events... then the cup wasn't literally his blood because he hadn't shed any yet. I take it no more literal than I do "God is a rock." And again, that isn't rebellion on my part.... that is just looking at the Word of God and trying to reach a conclusion that is consistent with what we see in those passages and as compared to the rest of Scripture. God uses metaphors a lot... and Yeshua hadn't shed any blood yet. The cup was wine used as a memorial, it wasn't literally his blood.
     
  14. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

    +4,024
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single
    When you see all of that, I see two thousand years of Christian history unanimous in its belief regarding the Eucharist. It's more than a little late for a layman to decide something different.
     
  15. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,745
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I don't because I study history. The face of the faith was Jewish until the bar Khokba revolt in 134AD. Within 20 years of that time, by 150ish, things looked more Greek. The Jews were being called Christ Killers (thanks to Martyr) and decrees began being passed that were geared around making those in the faith appear less Jewish. Decrees against eating clean, decrees against keeping a Saturday Sabbath, and so forth. And yes, we must of still had enough people keeping Shabbat and eating clean for them to need to pass a decree.

    Regardless... I believe the bible is the final authority on all spiritual matters. You say you do, too... but then keep quoting or inferring Christian tradition to support your claims. :) Yeshua hadn't shed any blood when he held up the cup.... so I don't take it literal. That isn't rebellion, it is a different conclusion than yours. I have nothing else to say.
     
  16. Tigger45

    Tigger45 “That they may be one.” Supporter

    +6,833
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Therefore by your logic every division within the church, before your understanding of the start of sola scriptura, is the fault of Holy Tradition and not the individual’s application of it.
     
  17. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

    +4,024
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single
    Schisms in the Church have had very little to do with the bible. The greatest and earliest schisms have more to do with language than any real differences of opinion.

    The means of salvation and the sacraments are agreed on even among schismatics. The meaning of the bible is agreed on among the original Churches. There is no need in reinterpreting its meaning.
     
  18. nonaeroterraqueous

    nonaeroterraqueous Nonexistent Member

    +1,305
    United States
    Protestant
    Married
    You make a good point. It should be noted that Christ replaced one commemorative event with another. It was the crucifixion and resurrection that were the notable events, not the communion, which was commemorative of it. In the same way the Seder, which communion replaced, was commemorative of the much more remarkable event of the Exodus. I don't think anyone who was there when Jesus presented it expected or believed that anything akin to transubstantiation was taking place. The event had always been commemorative, and it remained so.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  19. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,282
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    <KR>The bible says God is a rock... can we go outside, pick him up in a field, and worship him? No... why? Because it is a metaphor. The bible calls Jesus a lamb... but he lacks 4 legs, a tail and fur. Literal? No... in both cases we have a literal object being used in an abstract manner to give us a picture of God's greatness or work. So when Jesus, in his body and sitting on a chair, holds up a cup of wine and claims it is his blood BEFORE his blood was shed... then why do we take that literally? I don't care that you do.... but don't assume that because you have reached another conclusion that it means others don't take the bible seriously or as their sole source of answers relating to God and His will. I mean, I could do the same and direct it at you... and insist that, since you take the blood cup literally... that to be consistent you need to take the rock or lamb literally. But I know better. I am hoping you do too. I am not in rebellion because I don't take the cup as literally his blood... because he held it up before he shed any blood and was in his body when he held up the bread and said it was his body. I see it, clearly, as a memorial and that the work is done and THAT WORK is what is memorialized in the pictures presented in the bread and wine. I don't see it as a repeating event week after week.
    I am not in rebellion, I have simply drawn a different conclusion based on reasons I shared above. The bible is full of metaphors... and I see this as another. I love God... if He shows me different, I will accept it
    .<KR>
    Ditto! I don't think it could be stated any better or any clearer.
     
  20. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +2,826
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Well, if a person is "Sola Scriptura", the Bible says,

    "Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)

    To me, submitting to God includes relating with Him and how He personally has me becoming and how He personally guides me while I am submitting to Him. So, to me this would clearly mean how salvation includes a personal relationship with Him. If we trust Him, we submit to Him ruling and guiding us in our hearts, I would say.

    And our Apostle Paul says, "we who first trusted in Christ" > in Ephesians 1:12. If you come to trust in a person, what and how much does this involve? I mean if you come to deeply trust a person, there is intimacy and relating and personal communication in such trusting. There is very personal relating involved in trusting in a person; trusting is not only trying to use someone, from a distance, merely trusting that you can use the person to get what you want.

    And ones understand . . . I think there are people, anyway > there is at least one, anyway, who is I :) > who understand that believing in someone includes coming to trust in that person. And if we truly do trust Jesus, we do what He says. And Jesus says He guides His sheep; guiding is very personal.

    And Jesus says He gives us His own peace > John 14:27 < if we have Jesus Christ's own peace, this is the peace which Jesus Himself is experiencing, on Heaven's throne, is it not? So, if we are sharing in the peace which Jesus Himself is experiencing, we even are feeling what He is feeling . . . more or less, depending on how much we have grown in Christ and this peace. So, this is very personal relating and sharing, if we are experiencing and feeling what Jesus our Groom is experiencing and enjoying in His own peace.

    And the scriptures say this, don't they? I have quoted scriptures.

    And in this peace we are personally guided, if we are ruled by this peace in our hearts. And Colossians 3:15 does say we are all "called in one body" to be personally ruled by our Father's own peace in our "hearts" >

    "And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

    This is very personal relating, to be personally ruled by God in our "hearts" < a very personal place to be relating with God.

    So, I would say the Scriptures say plenty to indicate how God wants to personally relate with every child of His. There is more scripture than what I have offered here.
     
Loading...