Sola Scriptura is overrated, the first christians didn't need it so neither do we.

[ToBeLoved]

This is more of a supernatural sensitivity, it's when people hold up the bible like a law in their hearts, it creates a particular kind of spiritual atmosphere. The bible is useful, but when people make the bible a law, and place themselves under it .. it changes the way God interacts with them.

That doesn't really make sense. The Bible teaches us about God and who God is in respect to human beings, but some make the Bible the law? If you mean some believe the Bible is true, all of it. Then yes, but that is not making the Bible the law.

 

[ToBeLoved]

contrast between the biblical idea of freedom and the secular idea freewill

You have no idea what he is talking about, I see. Right over your head.

 

[Righttruth]

I didn't mean that kind of self control.

Manly effort has no value.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I had challenged all in another Christian Forum to prove OSAS using only Jesus' words. None succeeded. Scripture ended with the OT. Canon is man-made.

Ok, well then there is nothing to discuss with you. Maybe Jesus was telling the mysteries of God and not worrying about some people who would come along 2,000 years later trying to prove a point using only His Words that He wasn't teaching about.

If that is your best defense of why you only believe the Old Testament, then you are building your faith on sand.

Seems you are more interested in proving others wrong than you are in getting God's Word right. So then as God says "their treasure is where their heart is". Sounds like your treasure is your own broken theology and your own pride in thinking you are right.

So then, you missed all Jesus taught.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Now, what about 'all the other verses' that contradict your concept of OSAS? We are to take 'all scripture' into account in order to come to proper truth. Not pick a couple that match what we want to believe and then try to insist that it's truth.

If OSAS were 'truth', we wouldn't be given so much warning about 'working out' our Salvation in 'fear and trembling'. For if once we are saved, we cannot 'lose' our Salvation, what happens if we don't follow in 'truth' once 'saved'?

You say, once again, those that don't follow weren't saved to begin with. That is an illogical 'circle' of confusion. An illogical excuse to try and answer all that is contrary to the concept.

Christ offers numerous parables dealing with the issue of 'turning away' once one has been 'enlightened'.

How about this as an example that is merely common sense: I find someone who has taken an overdose of medication in an attempt at suicide. I rush them to the hospital and end up being responsible for 'saving their life'.

Two days after being released from the hospital, they again take an overdose and no one is there to save them this time. They die.

It is no different with 'Salvation'. The only way that Christ's blood is able to 'do' anything is if the person offered the gift continues to 'accept it'.

All the warnings given by Christ and the apostles are given to those that 'believe'. Those that have been given the opportunity to 'receive' the gift that has been offered. Why would there be any warnings given to those that are 'believers' if there is 'no reason' for warning?

We see the 'church' at Corinth. Paul 'knew' that there were many there that had received the 'Holy Spirit'. Yet just a few years after leaving there, Paul receives word that they are reverting 'back' to their previous pagan practices.

Are you trying to offer that 'no one' in the entire 'church' at Corinth had been 'saved' while Paul was there? NO ONE?

Yet Paul rebukes the 'entire church'.

In the revelations to the different Churches, Christ warns specific 'churches' that if they do not 'change' that He will remove their 'place'. This in and of itself ought to clearly show anyone curious that OSAS is utter fallacy. If Christ's blood was accepted and can't be altered, how then could Christ Himself warn that if they 'do not change' He will remove their 'place'?

By all means, if you 'think' you have found other scripture that supports 'OSAS', I challenge you to offer it so that it can clearly be shown that it can only support OSAS if improperly interpreted.

Blessings,

MEC

Wonderful. I will take you up on your offer and provide proof of OSAS, however I cannot do this now as I am getting ready for work. I will come back later this afternoon and meet your challenge head on!

 

[ToBeLoved]

The Bible is not 'law'. It is instruction. Big difference.

I don't 'live' the Bible. My understanding of the 'truth' which alters my life is derived from the Bible. My understanding of the 'truth' is not 'law'. It is 'understanding'.

I do not 'worship' the Bible as a 'graven image'. I learn from the Bible. And respect that it is 'God's word' given to us for our edification.

But in 'truth', it is 'just a book' without the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

But without the 'book' to give us something tangible to compare, how is one to trust that the 'spirits' that they follow are 'The Holy Spirit' rather than 'some other spirits'?

In other words, one 'says' that they are being led by the Holy Spirit. How can they 'know' that it is 'truly the Holy Spirit' without some means of discernment?

There are 'spirits' many and even Satan himself can disguise himself as an 'angel of light'. Without the Bible to guide us in 'truth', what other means is there to determine the true Spirit from all other 'spirits'?

Blessings,

MEC

Did you miss the verse that tells us how to 'test the spirits'?

1 John 4:1
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God. For many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you will know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God

I'm glad I could help you over this spiritual problem. God bless.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Once again. What God has offered no one can alter. The offer has been made and it will not be 'taken back'.

But that does not mean that one cannot forfeit that which has been offered that is irrevocably offered. The offer stands regardless of the intention of the potential receiver.

Explain 'forfeit? One must have something to forgeit it, so I'm not understanding your use of words here. Seems like sentence one contridicts sentence two.

It would help if you included the scripture you are getting things from, otherwise we have no idea.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Scriptures? I have been discussing the ones you offered.

But if you want something that shows that we can 'turn away'? The Prodigal Son is a pretty good one about one 'coming back'.

There's the parable of the 'seeds' that offers a pretty good example. And then there is this: If God does not 'cut the days short', even His very elect stand the chance of being 'led astray'.

Blessings,

MEC

You were not talking about salvation? I'm not getting you here.

The prodigal son comes back. In our lifetimes God will always take His Children back. God is fair and just and honors His covenant with us, the New Covenant.

Now we can turn away, but that does not loose one their salvation. As you can see the prodigal son came back and the father was happy, overjoyed and threw a feast because he had his son back that once was lost.

The reason you believe that we can loose salvation is because you don't believe in Sola Scriptura

P.S. The prodigal son is not the scripture I brought forth, nor is the parable of the seeds. So you are bringing forth scripture.

 

[Righttruth]

Ok, well then there is nothing to discuss with you. Maybe Jesus was telling the mysteries of God and not worrying about some people who would come along 2,000 years later trying to prove a point using only His Words that He wasn't teaching about.If that is your best defense of why you only believe the Old Testament, then you are building your faith on sand.

Jesus did not say that new writings will follow Him. He warned of false prophets. Paul is the first heretic of Christianity. Believing him in totality is like being sucked into quick sand of suppositions. I believe in the OT and the NT as envisioned by Jesus and His words, not blindly. If one is blind, he will be practicing book idolatry and will be overwhelmed by Paul's speculations.

Seems you are more interested in proving others wrong than you are in getting God's Word right. So then as God says "their treasure is where their heart is". Sounds like your treasure is your own broken theology and your own pride in thinking you are right.

Jesus did not institute a theology. He is the way, life and truth. It was Paul who began a religion of Pharisaic Christianity for those who wrongly interpret his letters written at far off places for specific problems of his immature churches in that context. It is wrong to universalize them now for a mature belief.

So then, you missed all Jesus taught.

That is what Pauline Christians are doing by relapsing into notorious Corinthian conditions.

 

[SolomonVII]

Scripture, as it exists, really is not the best source for the sayings of Jesus, if that is to be considered the gold standard of what is really important or not. Early gospels exist that really just focused on that aspect. Was not the Gospel of Thomas just so focused?

Scripture, as it exists now for the greater part of the Christian world, of course used a completely different standard of what ought to be the focus of the Christian message. For them (and for the Spirit too, to the extent that understanding of what Scripture is is deemed to be of the Spirit) what was of primary importance was not so much what Jesus said. His primary role was not to be the Jewish Confucius, and a source of wise quips and quotes and axioms. What was important was an understanding of just WHO Jesus was, and exactly what the purpose was for God to send his Son to a particular place in time, to live out a particular biography.
Indeed, there is very little new or unexpected about what Jesus actually said. It is all consistent with, and often repetitive of, what already exists in Jewish literature, and the Torah and the Writings and the Prophets.

But oh my, what a narrative!!. That was completely unexpected and startling and unique, giving a completely different understanding of what God's plans and hopes for us really were.

Certainly, Scripture has enough of the sayings and words of Jesus, and many editions of the Bible have seen fit to red letter these. But the words that God the Second Person said are nothing compared to the life of the Word Become Flesh.
The NT is all about that narrative, that biography, and writing about the narrative in a way that elucidates God's purpose as completely is possible to do through the vessel of human writing.

Paul was the master at this task, which is to say that the Spirit found a very competent and willing vessel through which to bring the world understanding via Paul, the letter writer.

Stripping Jesus down to his sayings, stripping the Word down to his words, stripping Paul from Scripture, in the end would make Jesus redundant. Most of it had already been said. We only focus on Jesus' words so much now because the great love for us demonstrated at Gogotha revealed a man who would walk the walk and not just talk the talk.

That is what is so impressive about Jesus, and the fullness of Scripture is what brings this out to the fullest possible extent, to a sufficient extent even.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Pretty bold accusations over our disagreeing upon a 'man made concept'. If we can rightly judge the hearts of others by what they 'say', then you have certainly said a 'mouthful'.

I am perfectly versed in the 'new covenant'. OSAS is not a part of it. If so, show it to us in words that agree with everything else offered concerning 'salvation'. If the Bible explains to us that we can indeed choose to 'turn away' even after coming to the truth, then it's obvious that OSAS is fantasy instead of reality.

It's not because I choose to believe what I believe, I have read and studied the Bible to come to the conclusions that I offer.

God wants children to share His love with and for them to share their love with each other. And that is 'our choice'. He does not 'make us' love Him or each other.

But I can assure you, one can choose to love God and love his neighbor and later 'change'. Choose hatred or 'self love' instead of 'true love'.

It's always easy to sit back and formulate 'ideas' about things we know nothing about. It's only when we find ourselves in situations similar to those of others that we actually 'understand'.

When we begin to recognize our ability to empathize with others, it is then that we begin to 'see' that there are all kinds of situations that can cause one to 'change'. I have read stories and witnessed first hand those that at one point, I truly believe had accepted Christ's blood as forgiveness.

Yet later, something happened, who knows. They opened a door and let demons in, something emotional happened, you know, some extreme tragedy like the death of a loved one or personal injury. Many different possibilities.

But I have read about and seen people 'give up' and turn away. Deliberately allow darkness to creep in and that to become their final state.

You can 'say' that they weren't 'saved'. I don't know how 'anyone' can 'know' they are saved until judgment. If that determination hasn't yet been made, 'saying' one 'knows' they are saved completely obliterates the concept of 'faith' or 'hope'. You don't have 'faith' in things that you 'know' nor do you have 'hope' for things already obtained.

So it is my belief that it is you that have built a faulty foundation and then your attitude to throw out such blatant accusations against others you don't even know? That certainly doesn't show a whole lot of 'love'.

Not really sure what 'denomination' you follow. I don't. I follow the words of Christ and His apostles. I certainly don't live by or 'teach' the old testament so far as Salvation is concerned.

It's kind of funny. Every time I've discussed OSAS with those that try to defend it, it ends up with them accusing me and others of not 'knowing the truth'. Slinging trash talk instead of defense.
For it cannot be defended when coming up against the likes of me and others that have actually done their homework on the issue. It takes one willing to 'brainwash' themselves to believe in it. And that usually involved the 'idea' being introduced by particular denominations. It certainly hasn't 'come about' through proper reading and study of the Bible. You can 'say' it's so. But in truth, any scripture you try to use to defend it must be taken out of context or altered in interpretation to make it 'fit' such an idea.

But 'good luck' with it. It must be comforting to believe that nothing you can 'do' can end up separating you from God or His Son. Yet we are instructed to 'serve' in 'fear and trembling'. We are warned that it's not what 'we say' we believe but what we 'do' that matters most. Christ plainly offered this on numerous occasion. People can 'say' anything. But it's the fruit that they produce that actually proves where their heart is.

Blessings,

MEC

You do know that this was written to RightTruth about one of his posts and not to you, right?

It sounds like you think it was written to you by the words you chose.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

2Ti 2:2

And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

 

[thecolorsblend]

2Ti 2:2

And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

I like that.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Jesus did not say that new writings will follow Him. He warned of false prophets. Paul is the first heretic of Christianity. Believing him in totality is like being sucked into quick sand of suppositions. I believe in the OT and the NT as envisioned by Jesus and His words, not blindly. If one is blind, he will be practicing book idolatry and will be overwhelmed by Paul's speculations.

Really what this shows is your lack of faith in God. The fact that the other apostles, even Jesus' brother accepted Paul as an apostle shows you how wrong you are, yet you continue with an unscriptural tirade against Paul where half of the things you say are not true.

You should be able to admit that since you have closed your mind to most of the New Testament, the fact is that you do not know or understand most of the New Testament. Yet, you believe Luke's gospel, but say that Luke was a friend of deciever Paul's. Like Luke corrupted the Book of Acts, but not the Gospel of Luke.

It is a shame how much you do not know or understand, but how much credability you give to a book.

You "believe" the apostles, yet don't "believe" the apostles when they call Paul one of them, an apostle.

I guess it doesn't have to make sense to you.

 

[Righttruth]

Really what this shows is your lack of faith in God. The fact that the other apostles, even Jesus' brother accepted Paul as an apostle shows you how wrong you are, yet you continue with an unscriptural tirade against Paul where half of the things you say are not true.

No chosen apostle called Paul an apostle.

You should be able to admit that since you have closed your mind to most of the New Testament, the fact is that you do not know or understand most of the New Testament. Yet, you believe Luke's gospel, but say that Luke was a friend of deciever Paul's. Like Luke corrupted the Book of Acts, but not the Gospel of Luke.

Luke was honest in admitting that his work is a compilation of what he heard from others, unlike Paul who fired his own imaginations

It is a shame how much you do not know or understand, but how much credability you give to a book.

Your assumptions are not supported by the Bible.

 

[ToBeLoved]

No chosen apostle called Paul an apostle.

They acknowledged Paul's ministry to the gentiles. They don't have to call him an apostle, but they knew he called himself an apostle and they never disputed it. Peter even closes the chapter by tsaying "which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness"

2 Peter 3:14-17
14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,


Your really grasping here.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Luke was honest in admitting that his work is a compilation of what he heard from others, unlike Paul who fired his own imaginations

And what did Paul distort? Did he not say he was not one of the original apostles? Did he not say as a Pharisee named Saul that he persecuted and killed Jesus children? Does Paul not give all the glory and honor to God?

Why don't you start getting very specific in the verses that you say Paul distorted. Because I don't see any concrete proof, only a lot of talk about some book you read.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Your assumptions are not supported by the Bible.

Well you haven't shared any of the Bible to support your claim, I'm not claiming Paul is false you are. With no scripture to back you up may i add.

 

[Righttruth]

They acknowledged Paul's ministry to the gentiles. They don't have to call him an apostle, but they knew he called himself an apostle and they never disputed it. Peter even closes the chapter by tsaying "which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness"

2 Peter 3:14-17
14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,
Your really grasping here.

No need to beat around the bush. Did Peter call Paul an apostle? Where?

 

[Righttruth]

And what did Paul distort? Did he not say he was not one of the original apostles? Did he not say as a Pharisee named Saul that he persecuted and killed Jesus children? Does Paul not give all the glory and honor to God?

Why don't you start getting very specific in the verses that you say Paul distorted. Because I don't see any concrete proof, only a lot of talk about some book you read.

Another example: Jesus never said to celebrate communion in 'remembrance' of His death!