Did Jesus or other chosen apostles call Paul as an apostle? No way, because it is limited to 12 representing the 12 tribes. Did Paul has his own tribe to make it 13?
Upvote
0
-
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
-
CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Sola Scriptura is overrated, the first christians didn't need it so neither do we.
- Thread starter Gregory Thompson
- Start date
Did Jesus or other chosen apostles call Paul as an apostle? No way, because it is limited to 12 representing the 12 tribes. Did Paul has his own tribe to make it 13?
Paul was not an apostle to the Jews, but to the Gentiles. So he never said he represented the 12 tribes.
Why did Jesus say that He must bring together the sheep in two sheep pens under the New Covenant?
John 10:15-16
15 just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father. And I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them in as well, and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock and one shepherd.
So which of the other apostles went to the gentiles? Because Jesus said He had two sheep pens.
Note: This is the Gospel of John which you say you believe, not written by Paul.
Upvote
0
Verses please that show Paul as false and conflicting with Christ's words.
You say he is false, so you must have some proof.
Upvote
0
- Mar 16, 2004
- 22,030
- 7,265
- 62
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Calvinist
- Marital Status
- Single
- Politics
- US-Democrat
There is nothing in Scripture suggesting they represent the twelve tribes of Israel. The Patriarchs still do that. What's more Peter rightly understood a prophecy indicating Judas would be replaced but God never told them to do any such thing. Certainly there was no call for casting lot.
Now I don't know what your trying to accomplish here but you haven't made a single Biblical or doctrinal argument. It sounds like you just want to dismiss over half the New Testament. Paul met with the Apostles if he had been a false teacher they had ample opportunity to expose him. He founded most of the early churches in Galatia, Asia Minor and Greece.
These are false and baseless accusations.
Upvote
0
No, Jesus Himself told us to do communion in rememberance of Hiim.
Luke 22:19-20
19 And He took the bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body, given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”
20In the same way, after supper He took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is poured out for you.a
Upvote
0
- Mar 16, 2004
- 22,030
- 7,265
- 62
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Calvinist
- Marital Status
- Single
- Politics
- US-Democrat
Upvote
0
That was his typical self-proclamation! There are only 12 foundations for the apostles in the heaven. Do you think Paul will sit on the lap of Peter?
Peter did.
Upvote
0
Matthew 19
28 And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Jesus had already given the apostles the Holy Spirit to act spiritedly to continue His ministry after He left.
Appendix cannot replace the main text. Tail cannot wag the dog. You know Jesus spoke in parables which were explained to apostles for clarification. So chosen apostles wrote indirectly on the limitless thinking of Paul. John calls any apostle other than chosen 12, a liar.
Upvote
0
It is well known that what you have indicated in red and v. 20 were later insertions, probably by Pauline people.
Upvote
0
Part of the conspiracy. Gotcha
For a poor tent maker, Paul sure made things happen.
A good experience of fabricating stuff! One can guess at his cooked up stuff!
And Luke was not present during Last Supper so also Paul
Upvote
0
- Dec 20, 2009
- 30,529
- 8,666
- Country
- Canada
- Faith
- Christian Seeker
- Marital Status
- Married
I find that people who reject Catholicism/Eastern Othodoxy don't know what it is ... ditto what you said.
Upvote
0
So Paul was very poor and went on three long missionary journeys building Christ's churches and made tents at night for money to continue his missions, yet had time to 'cook up plans'?
Doesn't sound like Paul led the good life? Poor guy worked day and night.
He must have been the best actor in history. Then leaving all that money behind, from when he was a rich Pharisee to become a poor missionary working for Jesus by day and building tents by night.
I see. I see.
Are you saying Paul was insane or something? I mean how does your book allocate for Saul giving up all his wealth, power, friends, ect.. job to become poor Paul who is thrown in jail constantly and be-headed for his faith?
And it wasn't Jesus who made this change to this man's heart and mind, but Paul being a manipulator?
Just curious how you have explained all these details to yourself?
Upvote
0
He started the first division in Jerusalem Church for not giving Mark another chance to go with them after the first journey--very unchristian trait!
Supporting himself is something admirable. But why we have salaried pastors now?
So also chosen apostles and other disciples.
Paul was not rich. That is another fable to support him. Yeah, he was crafty as admitted by him.
Authority and power corrupts people. That is why he assumed apostleship on his own.
Read the Gospel books and epistles from others to understand Paul.
Upvote
0
I want verses and facts, not your opinions.
Now since you've read the other books and epistles, you have the answers for me. See you cannot just make accusations without having and listing the scripture to prove your point.
Upvote
0
2X4
Active Member
I don't know about the first christians but I do know the servants of God who testified to the knowledge of Christ didn't carry any books with them to preach the Gospel to God's disciple's who listened to the Gospel and believed some or all of the knowledge of Christ.
I didn't need any scriptures with me when I preached the Gospel for 5 years in the streets to thousands of believers who came to hear His voice.
Upvote
0
- Mar 18, 2014
- 38,117
- 34,056
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
Please explain.
What is your understanding of Sola Scriptura?
What did the early church fathers use to refute heretics? It wasn't their own homilies and list of bishops.
They used the OT and NT Scriptures at their disposal. They did so prior to anyone compiling the books into the Bible.
What many overlook is our early church fathers did not make the Gospels and Epistles authoritative. They recognized by being filled with the Holy Spirit the authoritative nature of the Scriptures in their possession.
So your premise in the OP is incorrect.
The very earliest church fathers used Holy Scriptures to refute heretics and deliver sermons to the faithful.
Here's an example from St Ireneaus :
Against Heresies (Book III, Chapter 1)
1. We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith. For it is unlawful to assert that they preached before they possessed perfect knowledge, as some do even venture to say, boasting themselves as improvers of the apostles. For, after our Lord rose from the dead, [the apostles] were invested with power from on high when the Holy Spirit came down [upon them], were filled from all [His gifts], and had perfect knowledge: they departed to the ends of the earth, preaching the glad tidings of the good things [sent] from God to us, and proclaiming the peace of heaven to men, who indeed do all equally and individually possess the Gospel of God. Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter. Luke also, the companion of Paul, recorded in a book the Gospel preached by him. Afterwards, John, the disciple of the Lord, who also had leaned upon His breast, did himself publish a Gospel during his residence at Ephesus in Asia.
CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, III.1 (St. Irenaeus)
Upvote
0
Similar threads
