Sola Scriptura is overrated, the first christians didn't need it so neither do we.

[ToBeLoved]

I think you non OSAS people need to explain the following verses.

Romans 11:29
29 For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.

2 Corinthians 5:17
“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!”

So, then would a new creation be turned back into an old creation again? And then repents and becomes a new creation again? Does this happen over and over and over?

1 Peter 1:18-19
“For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect”

So is Christ's blood then perishable? Can it perish and be lost? The Word of God says it is NOT PERISHABLE.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life”

Ephesians 1:13–14
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee 14 of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,to the praise of his glory.

Titus 1:2
2 in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began

1 Corinthians 2:19-20
19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price.
There is more, but we can start there.

bump

 

[Meowzltov]

What is the source for translation? My question is whether the Jesus' words and His works recorded in Aramaic available like in Greek? Were they ever recorded about that time? You know Jesus spoke in that language.

Why would anyone want a translation from Aramaic? It's a translation of a translation and so would be inferior. Sure Jesus spoke Aramaic, but we are just making intelligent guesses what he actually said.

 

[juvenissun]

I guess it has been a while since I've answered. So I'll give another answer than the socio-religious reason.

The common application of sola scriptura turns the bible into a law, the bible teaches that the law is the power of sin. In any assembly where the bible is held up as a law, I experience a heightened sense of the sin living within the members of my body rising up as if being encouraged.

This kind of goes against the purpose of coming together as saints doesn't it?

The Bible holds a standard, not a law. I violated the standard all the time. But I will not be punished.
I guess you would not understand this, or you would think the Bible is totally wrong.
In this sense, I don't see anything is wrong with Sola Scriptura.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I don't want to consider Paul's suppositions. Salvation is not based on one verse or one author. One need to consider all relevant verses to hope for salvation. True believers have hope, not a guarantee of salvation in their pockets. Fruit of the Spirit and transformed life are the signs of salvation.


John 3:
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 15:
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Born again is not speaking gibberish nor immersion in water for baptism.

What was God saying then when He says

Romans 11:29
29 For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.

Salvation is a gift from God. God says His gifts are irrevocable.

Please refute this directly. Using scripture.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The Bible holds a standard, not a law. I violated the standard all the time. But I will not be punished.
I guess you would not understand this, or you would think the Bible is totally wrong.
In this sense, I don't see anything is wrong with Sola Scriptura.

Correct. No New Covenant saint is under the Law.

The Law is the Old Covenant. One cannot live out two Covenants.

 

[Meowzltov]

OSAS offers false security really that is dangerous to the point of losing salvation. Free will doesn't really give any control nor it offers security.

Free will does give us some measure of self control -- we can choose to follow God or not. That is control over our choices.

Compare that to Calvinistic predestination, where there is no control by individuals over the choice for God or not -- grace is irresistable.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I would just like to state, for the record, that not all people that believe in OSAS are Calvinists.

Please do not link those two together as one. Thanks.

 

[Meowzltov]

Interesting. So why did Jesus pray to the Father daily? And why did John the Baptist see a dove come down from heaven when Jesus was baptized? That was the Holy Spirit.

What do you believe exactly? You didn't really say.

Oh, I am a strict Trinitarian, as a devout Catholic.

I'm simply saying that the full understanding of Trinitarianism didn't exist until Nicea and beyond. The Scriptures only give us a very rudimentary understanding. The heretics used Scripture as well.

 

[Meowzltov]

What is the source for translation? My question is whether the Jesus' words and His works recorded in Aramaic available like in Greek? Were they ever recorded about that time? You know Jesus spoke in that language.

Jesus spoke in that language, but the gospels were written in Greek. Any Aramaic version is a translation from the Greek. There was a fifth gospel that was written in Hebrew (not Aramaic) which was lost fairly early, and some people alternatively think that this may have been the original version of Matthew. I doubt it was Matthew, since Matthew is one of the synoptic gospels, meaning that it is based on the same underlying text or oral tradition as Mark and Luke.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Oh, I am a strict Trinitarian, as a devout Catholic.

I'm simply saying that the full understanding of Trinitarianism didn't exist until Nicea and beyond. The Scriptures only give us a very rudimentary understanding. The heretics used Scripture as well.

So you are saying that the Apostles did not know what the Trinity was, nor did they believe in the Trinity as Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

 

[Meowzltov]

I would just like to state, for the record, that not all people that believe in OSAS are Calvinists.

Please do not link those two together as one. Thanks.

Oh, I realize that. It has recently become very trendy among Evangelicals in general (such has not always been the case). However, it does have its origins in Calvinism, and to be logically consistent, it does lead to the other four points. If you believe in OSAS and are not a Calvinist, you have lots of company in the Protestant world.

 

[Meowzltov]

So you are saying that the Apostles did not know what the Trinity was, nor did they believe in the Trinity as Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

I think the Apostles had a very vague notion of a rudimentary Trinity; for example they believed in One God, and that Jesus was God. Did they have the well defined understanding that came with Nicea and beyond? No. For example, the New Testament indicates they had at least some confusion over the spirit of Jesus with the Holy Spirit. (Philippians 1:19, 1 Peter 1:11) Today when we (Catholics and Protestants) read "the Spirit of [Jesus] Christ" in those passages, we interpret it as the Holy Spirit.

 

[Albion]

The Scriptures only give us a very rudimentary understanding. The heretics used Scripture as well.

True. That was what orthodox and heretical Christians both turned to for their doctrinal decision-making during the era of the Apostolic and Ancient churches alike -- Scripture.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The Bible holds a standard, not a law. I violated the standard all the time. But I will not be punished.
I guess you would not understand this, or you would think the Bible is totally wrong.
In this sense, I don't see anything is wrong with Sola Scriptura.

This is more of a supernatural sensitivity, it's when people hold up the bible like a law in their hearts, it creates a particular kind of spiritual atmosphere. The bible is useful, but when people make the bible a law, and place themselves under it .. it changes the way God interacts with them.

 

[Righttruth]

Why would anyone want a translation from Aramaic? It's a translation of a translation and so would be inferior. Sure Jesus spoke Aramaic, but we are just making intelligent guesses what he actually said.

Translations create problems of their own. They could be biased too.

 

[Righttruth]

What was God saying then when He says

Romans 11:29
29 For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.

Salvation is a gift from God. God says His gifts are irrevocable.

Please refute this directly. Using scripture.

I had challenged all in another Christian Forum to prove OSAS using only Jesus' words. None succeeded. Scripture ended with the OT. Canon is man-made.

 

[Righttruth]

Free will does give us some measure of self control -- we can choose to follow God or not. That is control over our choices.

Compare that to Calvinistic predestination, where there is no control by individuals over the choice for God or not -- grace is irresistable.

Self-control is the fruit of the Spirit, not freewill.

 

[Righttruth]

Jesus spoke in that language, but the gospels were written in Greek. Any Aramaic version is a translation from the Greek. There was a fifth gospel that was written in Hebrew (not Aramaic) which was lost fairly early, and some people alternatively think that this may have been the original version of Matthew. I doubt it was Matthew, since Matthew is one of the synoptic gospels, meaning that it is based on the same underlying text or oral tradition as Mark and Luke.

Why the gospels were not written in Aramaic in the first place? It is said that apostle Thomas brought Hebrew Gospel of Matthew to India.

 

[Meowzltov]

Self-control is the fruit of the Spirit, not freewill.

I didn't mean that kind of self control.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Self-control is the fruit of the Spirit, not freewill.

contrast between the biblical idea of freedom and the secular idea freewill