Sola Scriptura is overrated, the first christians didn't need it so neither do we.

[ToBeLoved]

Where does the Holy Spirit say that Jesus is God?

John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: and ye also bear witness, because ye have been with Me from the beginning"

Hebrews 10:15-18
15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First He says:

16“This is the covenant I will make with them

after those days, says the Lord.

I will put My Laws in their hearts

and inscribe them on their minds.”

17Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts

I will remember no more.”c

18And where these have been forgiven, an offering for sin is no longer needed.

Hebrews 3:6-11
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

7Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

8Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

9When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

10Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

11So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Acts 28:23-28
23So they set a day to meet with Paul, and many people came to the place he was staying. He expounded to them from morning to evening, testifying about the kingdom of God and persuading them about Jesus from the Law of Moses and the Prophets.

24Some of them were convinced by what he said, but others refused to believe. 25They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: “The Holy Spirit was right when He spoke to your fathers through Isaiah the prophet:

26‘Go to this people and say,

“You will be ever hearing but never understanding;

you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”

27For this people’s heart has grown callous;

they hardly hear with their ears,

and they have closed their eyes.

Otherwise they might see with their eyes,

hear with their ears,

understand with their hearts,

and turn,

and I would heal them.’

28Be advised, therefore, that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!”

 

[Righttruth]

1. John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
   1. John 1:14, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."
2. John 5:18, "For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."
3. John 8:24, "I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins."
   1. Note: In the Greek, "He" is not there.
4. John 8:58, "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.'"
   1. Exodus 3:14, "And God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM'; and He said, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’"
5. John 10:30-33, "I and the Father are one." 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."
6. John 20:28, "Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
7. Col. 2:9, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."
8. Phil. 2:5-8, "Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
9. Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son He says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom."
   1. Quoted from Psalm 45:6, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy kingdom."

All the above verses can be refuted. Jesus spoke in simple language. He said that He is the way, life and truth. Why did he not add God to that? In fact, He said: "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God."(John 20:17)

 

[Righttruth]

John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: and ye also bear witness, because ye have been with Me from the beginning"

Hebrews 10:15-18
15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First He says:

16“This is the covenant I will make with them

after those days, says the Lord.

I will put My Laws in their hearts

and inscribe them on their minds.”

17Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts

I will remember no more.”c

18And where these have been forgiven, an offering for sin is no longer needed.

Hebrews 3:6-11
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

7Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

8Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

9When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

10Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

11So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Acts 28:23-28
23So they set a day to meet with Paul, and many people came to the place he was staying. He expounded to them from morning to evening, testifying about the kingdom of God and persuading them about Jesus from the Law of Moses and the Prophets.

24Some of them were convinced by what he said, but others refused to believe. 25They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: “The Holy Spirit was right when He spoke to your fathers through Isaiah the prophet:

26‘Go to this people and say,

“You will be ever hearing but never understanding;

you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”

27For this people’s heart has grown callous;

they hardly hear with their ears,

and they have closed their eyes.

Otherwise they might see with their eyes,

hear with their ears,

understand with their hearts,

and turn,

and I would heal them.’

28Be advised, therefore, that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!”

I don't see answer to my question.

 

[Albion]

Why is that the version in the language that Jesus spoke is not part of the Bible? How much of the traditions are reliable?

You can indeed get a version that's translated from the Aramaic.

 

[Albion]

Jesus is truth. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to remind us of that. What if other writings don't comply with that?

The Scriptures, i.e. the Bible, would be the final authority, according to the reformed churches.

 

[SolomonVII]

One example:

John 18: 37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. (KJV)

37 Therefore Pilate said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."(NASB)

The word 'correctly' has been introduced in NASB to mislead that Jesus approved the correctness of Pilate's statement. KJV simply indicates that Jesus repeated what Pilate said.

Okay. There certainly are different translations of the Bible, and some are more closely literal translations of the original texts than others. Different people certainly have their preferences as to which is the most correct translation, and certainly some translations do not even attempt at being true copies of the original.
But I am still not sure how this passage could be troubling to someone's faith, especially someone who has already decided which translation is the most precise depiction of what Jesus actually said?

 

[ToBeLoved]

I would just like to say that when we look for 'the truth' or try to find 'truth' it is a good thing, but we also know from the Bible that the Lord and the Holy Spirit are sanctifiying (teaching) us all throughout our lives. We realize that we will never be perfect or understand it 'all' but I don't feel that Jesus is expecting us to be perfect in the sense that we always are right.

Being middle-aged and having lived life, our experiences and trials bring us to more wisdom and greater wisdom, but there is always more to learn to become more like our Beloved Savior.

Thinking we will ever in this life find perfect truth I think is a fallacy. We all see ourselves and other well meaning and devoted Christians struggle everyday and our churches are not perfect, none of them. What we each must do is live our lives in Christ, for Christ doing our best and seek the treasures of heaven and the wisdom of our perfect Lord who will one day make us all the perfect church that we hope to become in heaven.

 

[SolomonVII]

I would just like to say that when we look for 'the truth' or try to find 'truth' it is a good thing, but we also know from the Bible that the Lord and the Holy Spirit are sanctifiying (teaching) us all throughout our lives. We realize that we will never be perfect or understand it 'all' but I don't feel that Jesus is expecting us to be perfect in the sense that we always are right.

Being middle-aged and having lived life, our experiences and trials bring us to more wisdom and greater wisdom, but there is always more to learn to become more like our Beloved Savior.

Thinking we will ever in this life find perfect truth I think is a fallacy. We all see ourselves and other well meaning and devoted Christians struggle everyday and our churches are not perfect, none of them. What we each must do is live our lives in Christ, for Christ doing our best and seek the treasures of heaven and the wisdom of our perfect Lord who will one day make us all the perfect church that we hope to become in heaven.

Human understanding, by definition of what it means to be human, is limited. Divine understanding, again by definition, is without boundaries or limits of any kind. The twain meets in Jesus. We learn how to live our lives according to Divine standards by following the path and the way set for us by Jesus through his own journey as God living within the restrictions of a fully human life.

The source for that information of who Jesus is, and where the path he has set for us lies, is Scripture.

 

[Righttruth]

You can indeed get a version that's translated from the Aramaic.

Is it part of the canon?

 

[Righttruth]

The Scriptures, i.e. the Bible, would be the final authority, according to the reformed churches.

How can the infinite God's wisdom be contained in a few selected books?

 

[ToBeLoved]

What happens to the truth then?

There are several definitions of cannon, which are you talking about?

 

[ToBeLoved]

How can the infinite God's wisdom be contained in a few selected books?

God doesn't say that His Bible contains 'infinite' wisdom. That is a fallicy thought by some. God tells us what we need to know to be equiped to be His servant on earth to walk in Christ's love and be like Christ. There are many things that we do not know about God and God tells us that all mysteries will be revealed to us in heaven. All things ever done will become known.

Is that what you think? That God says that all infinite wisdom is in the Bible? Umm. No. But Jesus told His disciples that He did not reveal the mysteries of heaven to them because they did not have the spiritual insight to understand the mysteries of God. And these disciples were taught by Jesus Himself. So God does not need us to know. Jesus told us there is much that is unknown.

 

[Righttruth]

I don't agree. It is a matter of 'understanding' what Paul offered in context.

Yes, Paul offered crafty solutions to problems sitting at a far off place on what he heard of the context for the churches he had founded and that were yet to grow. How can that be universalized now with fully grown church?

Oh my. See, you misunderstood what I said. I tried to convey that Paul offered details of Christ's message that were meant to offer 'greater' understanding of Christ's words.

How can that be when he was not in the ministry of Jesus?

Please, don't fear for my Salvation. Either I'll be judged worthy or I won't. But you certainly won't be the judge of that.

Yes, I agree. But I hear lots of people claiming salvation based on certain verses of Paul as their birthright.

I wrote:You have all the information with regard to salvation in the gospel books. Paul's limited knowledge of the preaching of Jesus-- barring his own claims-- as usual, actually are deviations from the truth if you believed that Jesus is truth.

If that were true, then we would only possess the four gospels. You fail to recognize that Christ offered 'nothing' concerning the establishment of the 'Church'. He offered 'nothing' to explain 'faith versus works'. He offered 'nothing' about the 'details' of His words so far as ''the deeper'' understanding offered by the apostles.

He began His church right from the moment He chose twelve apostles. The mantle of leading the church fell on Peter. There was no need to tell about faith and works after quoting Good Samaritan. What deeper understanding one would want after the Sermon on the Mount?

Let me ask you this: What was the 'purpose' of the apostles? What does the Bible mean when it states that there would be those that would come along 'after' Christ that would 'do' greater 'works' than Christ Himself?

It is a just a continuation of His ministry.

Agreed. But Paul didn't 'invent tongues'. Tongues existed from the moment the Holy Spirit was sent to empower the apostles to 'establish' Christ's Church.

The tongues observed on Pentecost are totally different from what was observed in notorious Corinth, so Paul invented the post of an interpreter.

Corinthians didn't use Paul's letter to start speaking in 'gibberish' and calling it tongues. Paul wrote to them trying to encourage them 'not' to misuse the 'gift of tongues'. He explained to them in humility the 'rules' of tongues so that they could compare what they were 'doing' to the 'truth'. Hoping that they would 'stop' what they were 'doing'.

I believe that Corinthians were badly imitating Pentecostal phenomenon to claim spiritual recognition as being done in Pentecostal based churches.

It doesn't really matter to sit and try and approach this issue according to semantics. Paul was a Jew. Paul 'saw' Christ. And Paul was empowered with 'all' the power bestowed upon the 'other twelve'. It is pretty clear to me that Paul would have been a 'better' apostle than Peter. So far as we know he 'never' denied Christ 'once'. He spent most of his life traveling around the 'known world' establishing 'churches' at his own expense.

Perhaps, Paul was better in offering goodies and compromise formulas to Gentile world who knew nothing of one true God. He took short cuts deviating from the directives of Jesus on his own.

One of the original twelve? Nope.

But think about this: Israel had twelve children that became the tribes of the Jews. But there was 'another son'. One that ended up being persecuted by his brother simply because he was 'special to God'. And then ended up 'saving' his entire family.

I would say that Joseph was 'greater' than all his other brothers combined. His own father loved him more than all his other brothers.

And think about it: 12. 12 chosen and then 'one' chosen to be greater than the other twelve. 13
in total. Seems like a recurring theme if you ask me.

Joseph has been specially accommodated in the book of Revelation keeping the number 12 exclusively.

And my hope is that you continue to study the scriptures and that one day, you too will see the significance of Paul and his writings.

That is what I am doing. More you read more you realize that he has been unduly overrated to the point of shelving the words of Jesus.

Each of us is able to bear only what we are able to bear. Some much, some little. You may be correct. For some, the Gospels themselves may present more than they can 'bear' or 'just enough'. Who knows. But I can attest to 'greater' understanding in existence that goes well beyond the four Gospels. The four Gospels are very limited in 'understanding'. Enough? Probably. But there is much more understanding that exists than the 'four Gospels'. In fact, I can expound upon the words of Christ in a manner that goes beyond the few words in the 'four Gospels'. Nothing in those Gospels can offer the testimony or witness that I can.

All additional writings should complement the Gospel, not deviations.

 

[ToBeLoved]

All the above verses can be refuted. Jesus spoke in simple language. He said that He is the way, life and truth. Why did he not add God to that? In fact, He said: "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God."(John 20:17)

You must not have read all the parables that Jesus taught in that were spiritually minded and not simple at all.

He told His apostles that they would understand them because Jesus would teach them the spiritual signifcance, however most would not understand at that time the meaning.

What problem do you have with the above verses? Also, if you think you are going to find the 'Truth' and have such a low opinion of Paul your not going to find many answers.

So what is your problem Biblically with Paul? I have participated in a lot of threads with Paul bashers and they really don't know there Bible well enough to understand Paul.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I believe that Corinthians were badly imitating Pentecostal phenomenon to claim spiritual recognition as being done in Pentecostal based churches.

Were there Pentecostal Churches in the early church? Which churches are those at the time of the Corinthians?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yes, Paul offered crafty solutions to problems sitting at a far off place on what he heard of the context for the churches he had founded and that were yet to grow. How can that be universalized now with fully grown church?

Isn't this a contridiction?

Paul was the only Apostle to the Gentiles and Peter's main ministry was with the Hebrews/Jewish peoples. So when did Peter take over all the Gentile churches from Paul who was lounging in a far off place?

I'm sure you have a source for that claim.

 

[Albion]

Is it part of the canon?

Of course.

 

[Albion]

How can the infinite God's wisdom be contained in a few selected books?

It isn't. Scripture itself makes that clear. However, it contains all that is necessary for God's purposes in giving us his revelation.

 

[Righttruth]

Okay. There certainly are different translations of the Bible, and some are more closely literal translations of the original texts than others. Different people certainly have their preferences as to which is the most correct translation, and certainly some translations do not even attempt at being true copies of the original.
But I am still not sure how this passage could be troubling to someone's faith, especially someone who has already decided which translation is the most precise depiction of what Jesus actually said?

It only means how biased translations deviate one from the truth. Furthermore, no version is precise. The question is how these biased translations are trying to uphold the disputed Trinity concept.

 

[Righttruth]

I would just like to say that when we look for 'the truth' or try to find 'truth' it is a good thing, but we also know from the Bible that the Lord and the Holy Spirit are sanctifiying (teaching) us all throughout our lives. We realize that we will never be perfect or understand it 'all' but I don't feel that Jesus is expecting us to be perfect in the sense that we always are right.

Being middle-aged and having lived life, our experiences and trials bring us to more wisdom and greater wisdom, but there is always more to learn to become more like our Beloved Savior.

Thinking we will ever in this life find perfect truth I think is a fallacy. We all see ourselves and other well meaning and devoted Christians struggle everyday and our churches are not perfect, none of them. What we each must do is live our lives in Christ, for Christ doing our best and seek the treasures of heaven and the wisdom of our perfect Lord who will one day make us all the perfect church that we hope to become in heaven.

Yes, you have very good points. Unfortunately, people claim to know the truth and nothing but the truth without bothering to allow the Holy Spirit to reveal to them as they diligently study the writings in order to understand the truth to the extent possible without giving up. They prefer to hear from professional preachers with their own comfortable theories that tickle their ears.