• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

Sola Scriptura Doesn't Make Sense

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by JAL, Apr 12, 2020.

  1. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,022
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    So your maxim is above John 12:48?
    I will stick with John 12:48.
     
  2. swordsman1

    swordsman1 Well-Known Member

    +818
    Christian
    By God's metaphorical "voice" I mean where the word "voice" is a metaphor for something else, as opposed to his literal audible voice. In the 20 verses I quoted it is a metaphor for scripture.

    Now show me where God's "voice" is a metaphor for an 'impression on the mind', as you think it is in John 10:27.

    No, "this nation" in Judges 2:20 is Israel at the time of the judges, long after Moses went up the mountain. The covenant they had was in writing in the form of scripture. So the "voice" in this passage is a metaphor for scripture.

    By the way, the 10 commandments were not "VOICED to Israel". It doesn't say that. It says "Then God spoke..." (Ex 20:1). There is no mention of speaking to Israel. In Ex 20:18 it says all the people heard was thunder and the trumpet. So presumably it was only Moses who heard God's words.

    Nor is the word "voiced" used Ex 20:1. The Hebrew word is ḏab·bêr, to speak.
     
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,022
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    @JAL

    Back in the garden, do we learn of some inner voice? No. Why did the Fall happen? It happened because they simply did not obey the command of God that told them to not eat of the knowledge of the tree of good and evil. These were literal words of God that He gave to Adam. Disobedience to these actual words given to them by God directly is what was the problem and resulted in the Fall of mankind.

    Today we have literal words of God inspired by the Holy Spirit available to us in the Holy Bible. The choice is up to you to listen to that Word above anything else. For if you put your conscience before the Bible, it will fail you. If you put some voice above what the Word says, it will lead you astray. So yes. The Bible is your sole and ultimately guide. if it wasn't, then you would be lost because faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). We cannot even have saving faith without the Bible. The faith is the BIBLE. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. So whenever you "poo poo" the Bible, and say it is not good enough, and you need something else you are actually attacking the faith over some foreign untrustworthy things. This is because you have not tasted of the goodness of God's Word in how it is like treasure. This is what I would call as being born again of water. I would encourage you to seek out His Word again. Study it. Know it more.

    2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV) says study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Do you study your conscience?
    Do you study some NDE (Near death experience)?
    No. You study the Word of God (the Bible) to show yourself approved unto Him.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2020
  4. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

    +620
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    I can think of two possible assessments of this statement. The more complex of the two postulates a driving force of evil behind such actions, but does so without contradicting the maxim. That theory is a bit thorny, though, so I'll go with the simpler theory.

    There need not be any 'evil' at work here. Imagine a judge who slaps a death sentence on an innocent person. Does this prove the judge was evil? Not necessarily. He might honestly believe that the evidence rightly incriminated him.

    Does this mean that it's possible for an unbeliever to kill Christians with a perfectly clear conscience? No unbeliever's conscience is PERFECTLY clear, since he's still rejecting General Revelation, but once he has bought into false assumptions and false religion, he could conceivably jump to the conclusion that persecuting Christians is a service to God. Prior to conversion, Paul probably was in that category.
     
  5. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

    +620
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    That's patently false. Hebrews 11, for example, documents the saving faith of several OT saints. Romans 4 and Galatians 3 depict Abrahamic faith as the common denominator of saints existing both before, during, and after the issuance of the Mosaic Law.
     
  6. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

    +620
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Saving faith cometh by hearing the divine Word.
     
  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,022
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I am not against God convicting us of things. These are not new words. General revelation from God like the Spirit convicting the world of sin (John 16:8-10) is not in reference to teaching new doctrine according to Scripture. The Spirit works in harmony with convicting us because they believe not on Jesus (See verse 9 - John 16:9).

    We learn about Jesus from the Bible.
    We learn about the teachings of Jesus from the Bible.
    We learn about His followers from the Bible.
    We learn about the kind of faith that He desires of us from the Bible.
    We learn about salvation from the Bible.
    We learn about the Trinity from the Bible.
    We learn about the Incarnation from the Bible.
     
  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,022
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    That is like saying that we need to build an Ark because God told Noah to build one. I am talking today and not in the past. The Bible did not exist back then. Revelation is progressive. We have something that Abraham never had. A complete Bible. There is precious treasure in the Bible, but apparently your missing it.
     
  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,022
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    You cannot be saved without believing in Jesus (John 3:16), or in believing the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

    We know of these truths by Scripture and not by some new vision a guy had last week.
     
  10. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

    +620
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    You've already proven your acceptance of the maxim. At every moment you LIVE by it. Otherwise you'd have cited me at least one example from your life where you saw clear warrant for departing from it.
     
  11. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

    +620
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    God is not the name 'Jesus'. God is a Person, not an English word. The person who doesn't know the name Jesus, but submits to the God of General Revelation, or the God revealed to Abraham (for example) via the Inward Witness DOES know Jesus (albeit not by that name).

    It's the same Person (it's Yahweh), regardless of the name used.

    Otherwise, the OT saints would be unsaved, at least those who did not know the name Jesus.
     
  12. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,022
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    A conscience is not new words like the Bible, though; It is also possible to defile a conscience, as well (Titus 1:15). So it is not an entirely reliable source. Proverbs 20:5 says,

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,022
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    God preserves His Word in the English today (with the King James Bible). So I beg to differ.

    Jesus is the second person of the Trinity or Godhead.
    So Jesus is very much God. If you do not believe that truth, then you cannot post in this section of the forums.

    The name of Jesus is above all names (Which would logically include even God the Father's name) (See: Philippians 2:9).

    No. That is a lie.

    We are saved by believing in Jesus, and not a general revelation of God.

    "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts of the Apostles 4:12).

    "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13).

    How was Paul saved?
    Was it just some general revelation of God?
    No.

    "And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest"
    (Acts of the Apostles 9:5).

    The jailer asked Paul, and Silas,
    "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

    And they said,
    "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (See: Acts of the Apostles 16:30-31).

    If you were there, you would say believe in the general revelation of God. So you would not be speaking the same thing Paul and Silas spoke.

    Things were different in the Old Testament. Not all OT saints had the full revelation of who their Messiah was.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2020
  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,022
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    @JAL

    I created a thread recently about the connection between the:
    "Living Word" (Jesus Christ), and the "Communicated Word" (Audible words spoken by God in the past, Scripture (God's Word) in the form of scrolls used by God's people in the past, and the Bible we have today).

    The Living Word & the Communicated Word.

    Hopefully the study I did will help you to see where I am coming from.
     
  15. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

    +620
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Things were not different in the OT - except that prophets like Abraham and Moses knew Jesus a whole lot better than you do.
     
  16. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

    +620
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Yet the maxim is what you LIVE by. Obviously your rebuttals are just blowing hot air, therefore. We hold to a popular saying in my family: Actions speak louder than words. Yours are screaming the maxim so loud that it's drowning out your posts on this thread.
     
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,022
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Insults are not become of the saints. Anyways, I am aware that even the Israelites had drank of that rock and that rock was Christ (1 Corinthians 10:4). I am aware of the many preincarnate appearances of Christ, as well. I believed they did abide with the same God today but they did not all have the same level of understanding that a New Testament saint had. The New Testament was a new covenant, and a new set of teachings and a further reveal of who God is.
     
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,022
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    John 12:48 is above your maxim.
     
  19. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

    +620
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Um...General Revelation refers to Jesus-as-God revealing Himself to all men. To believe in Yahweh - however He chooses to reveal Himself - is precisely what it means to believe in Jesus.

    Christ's atonement was retroactive. Hence even the OT saints who knew Jesus by other names (such as Yahweh) cannot be saved by any OTHER name. That's how such verses extrapolate.

    You might want to read up on the Covenant Theology postulated by the Reformers. In accordance with Galatian 3 (and Romans 4) all of us are saved via the Abrahamic Covenant through faith in Jesus Christ (who is precisely the same God that the OT saints prayed to, regardless of what name they used).
     
  20. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

    +620
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Not in my view was the NT a new covenant. I hold to Covenant Theology, but I'm not going to derail this thread onto THAT topic.
     
Loading...