Sola Scriptura defined....

[Fidelibus]

Hows this for an eager response!

Lol! Pretty much what I expected..... A lame deflection. It is obvious Maj that you are extremely upset by getting schooled in on Scripture, By Catholics no less. However, I suggest you take a deep breath, and try doing better with the questions I provided. I would hope you will give me the same courtesy, and as as a believer of the doctrine the bible alone, you will support YOUR theology and answer my questions using the "Bible Alone.


Where in the Bible does it say that "Scripture Alone" (the bible alone) is sufficient as a sole rule of faith is taught?

Did Jesus and the Apostles ever teach Sola Scriptura (the bible alone) is all one needs a a sole rule of faith? If so, Chapter, verse please.

Where in the Bible is the phrase.." we should make Jesus our personal Lord and Savior"?

Where is the Bible is the phrase the "Altar Call"?

Where in the bible is the phrase the 'Sinners Prayer'?

Where is the phrase "implied truth" or anything like it occur in the Bible?"


If you can't find the Book, Chapter or verses using your bible alone to support these questions Maj1, there is nothing wrong in just admitting it. I for one would not think any less of you in doing so, and pretty sure no one else would either. Thank you


I await eagerly your response.

 

[Major1]

Lol! Pretty much what I expected..... A lame deflection. It is obvious Maj that you are extremely upset by getting schooled in on Scripture, By Catholics no less. However, I suggest you take a deep breath, and try doing better with the questions I provided. I would hope you will give me the same courtesy, and as as a believer of the doctrine the bible alone, you will support YOUR theology and answer my questions using the "Bible Alone.


Where in the Bible does it say that "Scripture Alone" (the bible alone) is sufficient as a sole rule of faith is taught?

Did Jesus and the Apostles ever teach Sola Scriptura (the bible alone) is all one needs a a sole rule of faith? If so, Chapter, verse please.

Where in the Bible is the phrase.." we should make Jesus our personal Lord and Savior"?

Where is the Bible is the phrase the "Altar Call"?

Where in the bible is the phrase the 'Sinners Prayer'?

Where is the phrase "implied truth" or anything like it occur in the Bible?"


If you can't find the Book, Chapter or verses using your bible alone to support these questions Maj1, there is nothing wrong in just admitting it. I for one would not think any less of you in doing so, and pretty sure no one else would either. Thank you


I await eagerly your response.

I would have thought that by now you would have grown tired of asking the same questions over and over. EVERY single question you you asked AGAIN has been responded to.

You asked me..........
"Where in the Bible does it say that "Scripture Alone" (the bible alone) is sufficient as a sole rule of faith is taught?"

It is not required of Scripture to have a statement to the effect, "The Bible alone is to be used for all spiritual truth," in order for sola scriptura to be true. Many doctrines in the Bible are not clearly stated, yet they are believed and taught by the church. For example, there is no statement in the Bible that says there is a Trinity or that Jesus has two natures (God and man) or that the Holy Spirit is the third person in the Godhead. Yet, each of the statements is considered true doctrine within Christianity--being derived from biblical references. So, for the Catholic to require the Protestant to supply chapter and verse to prove Sola Scriptura is valid is not necessarily consistent with biblical exegetical principles of which they themselves approve when examining such doctrines as the Trinity, the hypostatic union, etc.
Is the Bible alone sufficient for spiritual truth? | CARM.org

You asked me.......
Where in the Bible is the phrase.." we should make Jesus our personal Lord and Savior"?

The response now is the same I have given you in the past...........
Romans 10:9 ..............
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
Romans 10:10.......
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

You asked me.................
Where is the Bible is the phrase the "Altar Call"?
Again, for the 3 or 4th time, those words are not in the Scripture. They are ascribed to Charles Finney in 1825 or so as a way of accepting lost sinners who came at the end of a sermon and wanted to know who they could be saved.

Where in the bible is the phrase the 'Sinners Prayer'?
Given to you in the Scriptures above from Romans 10.

Where is the phrase "implied truth" or anything like it occur in the Bible?"
That my friend was NEVER said by anyone to be in the Bible.
That question comes from you because YOU do not know how to study the Bible YOU believe what YOU are told by the RCC without question and I am the opposite. I believe the Scriptures over RCC Tradition.

Just as there is no statement in the Bible that says there is a Trinity or that Jesus has two natures (God and man) or that the Holy Spirit is the third person in the Godhead. Yet, each of the statements is considered true doctrine within Christianity--being derived from biblical references. So, for the Catholic to require the Protestant to supply chapter and verse to prove Sola Scriptura is valid is not necessarily consistent with biblical exegetical principles of which they themselves approve when examining such doctrines as the Trinity, the hypostatic union.

It is LOL funny that you would ask questions assuming that all Protestants do what some Catholic BLOGGER has told you a Protestant does while at the same time ignore the obviouse practices that YOU do and believe which are not found in the Bible and are not even suggested.

The truth however is that ALL Catholic believers accept ............
1. The sinless of Mary.
Please post the Scriptures that say those words which ALL Catholics believe.

2. The Perpetual Virginity of Mary.
Please post the Scriptures that say those words which YOU and ALL Catholics believe.

3. The Assumption of Mary.
Please post the Scriptures that say those words which YOU and ALL Catholics believe.

4. Calling Priests and Bishops FATHER.
Please post the Scriptures that say those words which YOU and ALL Catholics believe.

5. Praying the Rosary.
Please post the Scriptures that say those words which YOU and ALL Catholics believe.

6. Roman Catholics are taught the virgin Mary never had sex after Jesus was born.
Please post those Scriptures that say those words which YOU and ALL Catholics believe.

7. The RCC teaches that Jesus had no brothers and sisters.
Please post those Scriptures that say those words which YOU and ALL Catholics believe.

8. The Pope teaches that Mary is the mediator between God and man.
Please post those Scriptures that say those words which YOU and ALL Catholics believe.

9. Every Catholic believes in the RCC doctrine of Transubstantiation.
Please post those Scriptures that say those words which YOU and ALL Catholics believe.

10. The RCC forbids Priests to be married but Peter, the 1st Pope was married.
Please post those Scriptures that say those words which YOU and ALL Catholics believe.

Now that is ONLY 10. Honestly, I have no clue why you are pursuing this line of debate as I can post more and more Catholic doctrines which are NOT IN THE SCRIPTURES than you can imagine.
If I were you I would have gone a different route because you can not win using this one my friend.

Now I do not mean to load you up with a lot of information and you do not have to go to the trouble of copy and pasting from Catholic blogger sites, all I am asking you to do is to post the Scriptures where the WORDS are found that validate your believing in those doctrines.

 

[Fidelibus]

I would have thought that by now you would have grown tired of asking the same questions over and over. EVERY single question you you asked AGAIN has been responded to.

Not tired at all, I asked over and over again because you never answered over and over again. Finally, until now have you made an attempt. I say attempt because your answers has it's flaws. The flaws being as a believer of the doctrine The Bible Alone, (correct me if I'm wrong) your belief is if a teaching isn't explicit in the Bible, then you don't accept it as doctrine, correct? The word "explicit" (explicit: stated clearly and in detail, leaving no room for confusion or doubt) being paramount.

Now Maj1, being I am limited on time, I will have to give my rebuttles to your answers one or two at a time.

You asked me..........
"Where in the Bible does it say that "Scripture Alone" (the bible alone) is sufficient as a sole rule of faith is taught?"

It is not required of Scripture to have a statement to the effect, "The Bible alone is to be used for all spiritual truth," in order for sola scriptura to be true. Many doctrines in the Bible are not clearly stated, yet they are believed and taught by the church. For example, there is no statement in the Bible that says there is a Trinity or that Jesus has two natures (God and man) or that the Holy Spirit is the third person in the Godhead. Yet, each of the statements is considered true doctrine within Christianity--being derived from biblical references. So, for the Catholic to require the Protestant to supply chapter and verse to prove Sola Scriptura is valid is not necessarily consistent with biblical exegetical principles of which they themselves approve when examining such doctrines as the Trinity, the hypostatic union, etc.
Is the Bible alone sufficient for spiritual truth? | CARM.org

After reading this quote from Carm.org you posted (which by the way,is probably the #1 anti-Catholic site ever) I couldn't help but notice the sentence "Many doctrines in the Bible are not clearly stated, yet they are believed and taught by the church." Which of the tens of thousands different Protestant churches or non-denominational sects are they speaking of? And the part "they are believed and taught by the church? Really? that's easy to refute. Did you not read this before you posted it? Anyhoo. back to your answer.

I fail to see in the Carm quote, or any bible passage provided by you where it "explicitly" states that the "Bible alone" is sufficient as a sole rule of faith. Which equals to.... Attempt failed. Please try again of you wish. In my next post, I will give my rebuttle to your answer of my question....."Where in the Bible is the phrase.." we should make Jesus our personal Lord and Savior?"

Peace

 

[faroukfarouk]

As long as sola gratia, sola fide, and sola christus are abided by as well. I mean, creeds that are based on Scripture are good to know too.

It's really important for people to treat the Scriptures practically as they should be, also, and not simply give mental assent to a correctly worded formula.

 

[Major1]

Not tired at all, I asked over and over again because you never answered over and over again. Finally, until now have you made an attempt. I say attempt because your answers has it's flaws. The flaws being as a believer of the doctrine The Bible Alone, (correct me if I'm wrong) your belief is if a teaching isn't explicit in the Bible, then you don't accept it as doctrine, correct? The word "explicit" (explicit: stated clearly and in detail, leaving no room for confusion or doubt) being paramount.

Now Maj1, being I am limited on time, I will have to give my rebuttles to your answers one or two at a time.



After reading this quote from Carm.org you posted (which by the way,is probably the #1 anti-Catholic site ever) I couldn't help but notice the sentence "Many doctrines in the Bible are not clearly stated, yet they are believed and taught by the church." Which of the tens of thousands different Protestant churches or non-denominational sects are they speaking of? And the part "they are believed and taught by the church? Really? that's easy to refute. Did you not read this before you posted it? Anyhoo. back to your answer.

I fail to see in the Carm quote, or any bible passage provided by you where it "explicitly" states that the "Bible alone" is sufficient as a sole rule of faith. Which equals to.... Attempt failed. Please try again of you wish. In my next post, I will give my rebuttle to your answer of my question....."Where in the Bible is the phrase.." we should make Jesus our personal Lord and Savior?"

Peace

Still dodging aren't you???

As for "Carm", it is just the 1st one that came up on my search. If you need others they are many and easy to find and post for you.

Even your understanding of Sola Scriptura is inaccurate. My dear friend, lets place and end to this back and forth ridiculousness. You are spending precious time in trying to disprove or prove a WORD is or is not in the Bible to someone who does not care how hard you try. It does not matter to me.

But to show the silliness of this position, you make a big deal of rejecting, "Faith Alone" because those WORDS are not in the Bible but then YOU follow the RCC directions of the ROSARY and that word is not in the Bible either. That is the definition of insanity.

That is the ONLY reason I posted those 10 questions for you. NONE of those words or phrases are found in the Bible but YOU follow them.

YOU as a Catholic do not accept Sola Scriptura for one and only ONE reason. YOU as a Catholic follow doctrines of the Catholic Church which are not found anywhere in the Bible and you have no intention of stopping no matter what you are shown.

That is entirely YOUR personal choice and I respect that. I choose to reject that completely.

The argument against sola scriptura that you are using as a Catholic is that the Bible does not explicitly teach sola scriptura. Catholics argue that the Bible nowhere states that it is the only authoritative guide for faith and practice. NO ONE IS ARGUING THAT WITH YOU!!!!

While this is true, you as a Catholic fail to recognize a crucially important issue. We know that the Bible is the Word of God. YOU HAVE SAID THOSE EXACT WORDS. What I am saying to you is that the Bible declares itself to be God-breathed, inerrant, and authoritative. We also know that God does not change His mind or contradict Himself.

So, while the Bible itself may not explicitly argue for sola scriptura, it most definitely does not allow for traditions that contradict its message AND RIGHT THERE IS THE RUB BETWEEN YOU AND ME.
YOU are a Catholic and you have made a choice to believe Catholic Traditions over the Word of God and YOU are comfortable with that choice. Good for you! I really do hope that your choice works out well for you.

You have failed to understand that Sola scriptura is not as much of an argument against tradition as it is an argument against unbiblical, extra-biblical and/or anti-biblical doctrines and that my friend is why you can not, have not and will not answer any of the questions posed to you as a Catholic.

Now maybe we will speak again on another post on another subject but as for this one, I am done.

You and your family have a merry Christmas and stay well.

 

[Major1]

It's really important for people to treat the Scriptures practically as they should be, also, and not simply give mental assent to a correctly worded formula.

Agreed.

 

[Fidelibus]

Still dodging aren't you???

Nope, did you think a rebuttle was not in order?

Even your understanding of Sola Scriptura is inaccurate.

Really? So are you now saying that if a teaching "is not" explicitly found in the Bible you "can" accept it as doctrine or inspired by God? You do know that Sola Scriptura is Latin for "THe Bible Alone", right? In other words,, you are saying that my understanding of the doctrine, Sola Scriptura (the Bible Alone') as sole rule of faith is incorrect, and that a sole rule of faith can be obtained elsewhere other than within the pages of the Bible? Remember... as a non-Catholic, I too used to adhere to the Bible Alone belief, and when we said the Bible alone..... We meant The Bible Alone"!!!!!

But to show the silliness of this position, you make a big deal of rejecting, "Faith Alone" because those WORDS are not in the Bible but then YOU follow the RCC directions of the ROSARY and that word is not in the Bible either. That is the definition of insanity.

This is where you are confused Maj1. Surley you know that we Catholics do not believe, or are bound to the unbiblical, un- historical, and un- logical doctrine of Sola Scriptura. We Catholics do accept the Bible as an authority in matters of faith because it is God’s inspired Word. However, we do not believe it to be the only rule of faith. In fact, the Bible tells us that we need more than just the Bible alone, for it says that not everything Jesus said and did is recorded in Holy Scripture. (John 21:25) and that we must hold fast to oral tradition – the “preached” Word of God. (1 Cor 11:2; 1 Pet 1:25.)

The Bible also tells us that Jesus left us a Church with divine authority to govern in His name. (Matthew 16:13-20, 18:18, Luke 10:16). Christ also promised that the Church would last until the end of time. (Matthew 16:18, 28:19-20, John14:16). The Bible also tells us that Sacred Tradition is to be followed alongside Sacred Scripture. (2 Thess 2:15, 3:6). So you see Maj1. For you to think I am going to conform to Sola Scriptura during our discussions..... Well, as someone once told me...." That is the definition of insanity."

That is the ONLY reason I posted those 10 questions for you. NONE of those words or phrases are found in the Bible but YOU follow them.

Again, Catholics are not "Sola Scripturists"

YOU as a Catholic do not accept Sola Scriptura for one and only ONE reason. YOU as a Catholic follow doctrines of the Catholic Church which are not found anywhere in the Bible and you have no intention of stopping no matter what you are shown.

You are right, I don't accept it (SS) and so does 1.2 Billion other Catholics throughout the globe.. Not to mention the early Christians for the first fifteen hundred years of Christianity. If you were knowledgeable of the Catholic Church and her teachings as you put yourself out to be, you would know the Church “does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the Holy Scriptures alone” (Catechism of the Catholic Church [CCC] no. 82 Dei Verbum 9). Jesus is the ultimate Source of everything Catholics believe, for he reveals God’s plan to save the world from sin as he reveals the Father’s love. Jesus does this because he is the Son of God. He is always united with his Father and thus is the fullness of both Revelation.The mission of Jesus continues through the ministry of the Church that he founded, and he has given the Church the inspiration of the Holy Spirit for guidance in everything. The Revelation of Jesus is thus extended to the Apostles and handed on through two means: Sacred Scripture and Tradition.

That is entirely YOUR personal choice and I respect that. I choose to reject that completely.

Yes, after years of doubt as a Non-Catholic I now know I'm home. I also pray that you too will find your way home to Jesus' true Church, The Holy Catholic Church.

While this is true, you as a Catholic fail to recognize a crucially important issue. We know that the Bible is the Word of God. YOU HAVE SAID THOSE EXACT WORDS. What I am saying to you is that the Bible declares itself to be God-breathed, inerrant, and authoritative. We also know that God does not change His mind or contradict Himself.

The Bible reveals that God fulfilled his saving plan of love to free us from sin. The culmination of the entire Bible are the words and deeds of Jesus, in particular his Passion, death and glorious Resurrection.

The beliefs of Catholics are found in the Bible in two ways: explicit and implicit. Some teachings of the Catholic Church are easily found in the Bible. For example, that Jesus is the Son of God, that he called Twelve Apostles to follow him, that he healed, forgave sins, proclaimed the Kingdom of God present in his person, and that he suffered, died and rose again for our sins, are all very explicit in the Bible. (unlike Sola Scriptura) The Holy Spirit makes known the full meaning of these events in and through the Church, and makes the power of these events effective throughout history and in our lives today.

Some beliefs are more hidden. Love loves to hide secrets, so that when we find them we are enraptured even more by their beauty. The mystery of Jesus is so profound that sometimes you have to look closely to see all the parts that he has made known. The Holy Spirit has hidden some dimensions of the mission of Jesus in the Bible. The truths of faith are clarified by the Tradition through the Magisterium, the Church’s authentic teaching office. These truths Maj1 never contradict the Word of God in Scripture, but serve to articulate its truth more clearly.

The Holy Spirit helps us to find and to articulate these mysteries. The teaching on the Trinity, that is, that there are three Persons in one God, is found in the Bible in the many instances where Jesus speaks about his relationship with the Father and the Holy Spirit. The terms that the Church needed to express this mystery were given to her over several hundred years by the same Holy Spirit that inspired the Gospel writers as they wrote of the words of Jesus that revealed the mystery in the first place. The Church’s teachings about the Blessed Mother, the saints, the role of virtue and holiness are found in the Bible implicitly in varying degrees.

You have failed to understand that Sola scriptura is not as much of an argument against tradition as it is an argument against unbiblical, extra-biblical and/or anti-biblical doctrines and that my friend is why you can not, have not and will not answer any of the questions posed to you as a Catholic.

I disagree, as a former adhereant to the Bible Alone doctrine, I understand it perfectly. I just don't agree with your understanding of it, and I am sure there are tens of thousands... if not millions of current Sola Scripturists that do too! And I will address your list. You most likely will not like or agree with what the Catholic Church teaches regarding your list, but they will be addressed, be it Catholic Blogs, Catholic.com, Catholicanswers.com, Vatican documentations, Early Church Fathers, ect...... or from myself personally. But you can be assured Maj1,,,,, they will be addressed. Thats whats called UNITY!

Now maybe we will speak again on another post on another subject but as for this one, I am done.

I'm not. I will now continue with my rebuttles on your answers, and after doing so, I will begin adressing your list. With or without your participation.

You and your family have a merry Christmas and stay well.

Thank You, and a very Merry Christmas to you and yours!

 

[Fidelibus]

You asked me.......
Where in the Bible is the phrase.." we should make Jesus our personal Lord and Savior"?

The response now is the same I have given you in the past...........
Romans 10:9 ..............
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
Romans 10:10.......
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Sorry Maj1, but nowhere in these passages do I see the phrase "we should make Jesus our personal Lord and Savior" explicitly or implicitly for that matter. In other words.... your attempt again fails.

I'll let my fellow Catholic friends over at "askacatholic.com" explain Rom.10:9 to you:

"At text out of context, is nothing more than a pretext.

Using the fundamentalist approach, how on earth can someone who is mute ever be saved; after all, we must confess with our mouth, right?

To understand this verse we need to understand Paul's whole argument in Romans. That is, we are saved by grace through faith, and not by keeping the Mosaic law. It is true, we cannot save ourselves. Our works, done by our own strength do not save us and certainly circumcision, keeping the Jewish dietary laws, and sacrificing animals at the Temple, doesn't save us. In the same manner, keeping the Ten Commandments can't save us either. We need Jesus to save us.
Catholics don't disagree with that. This is an area where our Protestant brothers often have misperceptions about what we believe.

Our profession of faith does lead to justification in the sense that we obviously need to own our faith. True Baptism justifies us and gives us grace but at some point we have to own it.

Owning it, isn't a static event, in that it happens once, and even when we own it, it's not just a "get out of jail for free" card. Jesus is not our Lord and Bail Bondsman. He's our Lord and Saviour. He gives us the Holy Spirit in order that we might have the power to overcome sin.

Long before we come to Romans 10:9, we have read Romans chapters 6, 7, 8 and 9. These chapters give us the rest of the story, not to mention Romans 1 through 6. Romans 8 tells us that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, but it also says that if by the Spirit we put to death the sins of the flesh, then we are the sons of God.

Look, I can make the Bible say anything.
For example, in one text, Paul tells husbands to love their wives as if they are their own flesh.
Ephesians 5:28

In another text, Paul says he beats his flesh into submission every day.
1 Corinthians 9:27
So if I take these two verses out of context together, I can argue that Paul advocates wife beating. Now that's an absurd example but it serves us a good illustration and a warning.

We can't just take one verse and say, hey, this is pretty straight forward, it must mean "X".

We need to start by asking the question:

How does the verse fit into the argument the author is making?"

 

[Fidelibus]

You asked me.................
Where is the Bible is the phrase the "Altar Call"? Again, for the 3 or 4th time, those words are not in the Scripture.

Thanks for pointing that out Maj1. But as for anyone that adheres to the Bible Alone doctrine, shouldn't the practice of the "Altar Call" be rejected since it is not explicitly found in the bible? Besides, how many Protestant churches or non-Denominational sects actually have "Altars" in their churches?

They are ascribed to Charles Finney in 1825 or so as a way of accepting lost sinners who came at the end of a sermon and wanted to know who they could be saved.

Ascribed??? Ascribed by who? And by who's authority? Why not just come out and say it is nothing more than a man-made tradition. Hmmmm....

Where in the bible is the phrase the 'Sinners Prayer'?
Given to you in the Scriptures above from Romans 10.

Sorry Maj1, I can't seem to find the words of the 'sinners prayer' in Romans 10:9-10. And neither can Protestant apologists Matt Slick and Tony Miano.... Note: “There is not a single verse or passage in Scripture, whether in a narrative account or in prescriptive or descriptive texts, regarding the use of a ‘Sinner’s Prayer’ in evangelism. Not one” [emphasis in original]. So are they incorrect too?

This doesn’t mean it is wrong to ask Jesus to have a personal relationship with us. It just means that this foundational Protestant belief is not found in Scripture. The Bible also never instructs us to confess our sins to the resurrected Jesus, even though almost all Christians are comfortable doing that. So Protestants who adhere to sola scriptura should rethink their belief in these things—or rethink their belief in sola scriptura.

 

[Sola1517]

It's really important for people to treat the Scriptures practically as they should be, also, and not simply give mental assent to a correctly worded formula.

Right, and I'm a Baptist so I understand what you're saying. Confessions can be standards of belief though.