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Sola scriptura means to most people the application of sola scriptura. Since faith without works is dead, the theoretical idea of sola scriptura is meaningless.
I suppose so, but no one said that the Scriptures aren't to be applied. If anything, Sola Scriptura is an appeal TO apply Scripture (as opposed to applying less authoritative sources of information to doctrinal issues).Without application, the scriptures are insufficient.
What is learned from applying the scripture steers the interpretation of the scripture, thus scripture by itself is not sufficient.
Incorrect. It is absolutely is relevant to the topic at hand. One of the claims scripture makes about itself is that is breathed out by God. It's one of the properties scripture possesses and as a result is one of the reasons the Scriptures are sufficient as the Rule of Faith.Irrelevant to the claim in the OP.
Maybe. I agree that Paul is speaking of the of all scripture regardless of when it was written and that it does goes to the very nature of scripture itself. Scripture is Scripture from the very moment it comes into existence. Though I'm not sure how this is supposed to help your case.There is.
As some have already pointed out, when Paul told Timothy that "all Scripture is inspired", he could not have meant "the 66 books that Luther will one day declare to be Scripture", simply because they were not all written yet. In fact, at some point we even see Paul himself doubting whether his own writings were inspired. Instead, Paul was talking about the nature of Scripture: "If or when we come across a book that is Scripture, then we know that it is inspired", in other words: "every book whose nature is Scripture is inspired, both the ones we already have, and the ones that will be written after me [Paul]".
Agree?
A simple, clear and direct answer would greatly facilitate this debate.
All of Jesus' and the apostles infallible instructions that we know of, we know of from a book.Hey, when you get a minute, can you post the scripture saying "scripture should be one's sole authority"? Thx.
Where is this ONLY argument coming from. Who said that?no one has been able to show where it says "Only" scripture. That is what this is about. You will get no argument about the great importance of scripture.
Again, anyone able to show us all where the Bible says ONLY scripture?
This thread is in reply to a double invitation by @Athanasius377 to a debate (here and here).
The topic I proposed was Sola Scriptura, but @Athanasius377 chose to limit the scope of the debate to the sufficiency of the Scriptures. So here we go.
Based on James White's definition of Sola Scriptura (here), which I believe most Protestants can agree with, here is the claim I would like to discuss:
Claim: "The Scriptures are sufficient to function as a Rule of Faith."
Challenge: Prove it!
Rules: Be charitable and respectful, stick to the topic, be as brief and clear as possible.
Just not pretending that everything we believe is straight out of Scripture like all of those folks who disagree with each other all the while they claim EVERYTHING they believe is straight out of Scripture alone.And the Catholic church doesn't put their own interpretation of Scripture out there as truth? And they don't have a whole bunch of man-made traditions? Give me a break!!
But if it IS sufficient, then how does it work that it is insufficient for thousands of denominations that can't manage to find the sufficiency of Scripture. The evidence is that they can't agree. Obviously your denomination has it figured out exactly so, and Scripture IS sufficient for your guys but all the other ones, well, it isn't sufficient for them. How is that? What does sufficiency mean when it's so rare?A third possibility, and the one with the most value, is that Scripture is sufficient. Even if people interpret it differently, that doesn't diminish the truths of God found only in the Bible.
It had to do with your comment. The SS part comes in when the church no longer is the keeper of Scripture. Because of the printing press, critical printed greek text, translations, corruption or the church etc... did you forget that already?Sure, but that doesn't have anything to do with Sola Scriptura.
Sola scriptura means to most people the application of sola scriptura. Since faith without works is dead, the theoretical idea of sola scriptura is meaningless.
That's a cute straw man way of putting it.What is the alternative to believing the Bible?
We could invent a Latin phrase for that I suppose. Whatever you want. I'm rusty enough that I couldn't just wing the translation though.Is there a latin phrase for "We believe the Bishop, no matter what."
But if it IS sufficient, then how does it work that it is insufficient for thousands of denominations that can't manage to find the sufficiency of Scripture. The evidence is that they can't agree. Obviously your denomination has it figured out exactly so, and Scripture IS sufficient for your guys but all the other ones, well, it isn't sufficient for them. How is that? What does sufficiency mean when it's so rare?
The church of the 15th/16th century is different than today and has largely reformed from with in. What do you suppose kept it in check? The church is like a pendulum swinging out too far and needing to be brought back in. The 7 ecumenical Council for example may be examples of bringing it back in. SS and the reformation has played a role in bringing the church back in from swinging out too far. Or using your analogy was rudderless and SS became a ruder of the church even if it rejects it and it still is because the church can no long swing out like it did. Without the events of the 16th century would we even have an English Bible?Exactly.
Yes, the church got it wrong on some aspects of its teachings, but, show me any 'religion' 'organisation' etc etc that is and always has been 100% perfect.
The church has weathered many a rough storm since its inception but, with Jesus at the helm, its always going to get back on course!
Since the reformation 1,000's of Sola Scriptura faiths / churches have sprouted up. Each claiming only they know the truth! Each, like rudderless boats in a vast ocean, not knowing where they are going!
umm.... SolaWhere is this ONLY argument coming from. Who said that?
I'm sorry, what do you mean?You say that there is another one. I know that. Bunches of them, in fact.
What I asked, however, was whether there was another one referred to in Scripture. There isn't. If there is no other, then there is only one.
you mean agree with your definition?I had just hoped that people who do not know what Sola Scriptura is would come to understand what they are attacking, whether or not they agree with it.
just have a coherent explanation of SS, admit is a belief that ain't scriptural, and all will be good.I don't see anything unreasonable about that. Catholics often say that critics of their church have been misinformed about the Eucharist or the Papacy or the saints, etc. and that's why they think some teaching is wrong, and, as a result, are attacking a misconception they've been taught by somebody or just arrived at by themselves.
it is. But you all had better come to a consensus of what SS means. Also, be able to provide biblical proof instead of opinions.They are always told that they need to get the facts before criticizing them. Our topic here--Sola Scriptura--is in the same category.
No, but it's not what Sola Scriptura is all about.It had to do with your comment. The SS part comes in when the church no longer is the keeper of Scripture. Because of the printing press, critical printed greek text, translations, corruption or the church etc... did you forget that already?
I'm not sure where you get the idea that 1,000's of Sola Scriptura faiths / churches [whatever that means] have sprouted up.
The source of all truth is God and His Word (The Bible).
The teachings and behavior of men, including the Pope, are contradictory, fallible, and sometimes dangerous.
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