sodomy

JoabAnias · Jun 27, 2008

Anglian said:
For some reason Ephesians 5:1-6 came into my mind

Is this a Catholic Christian forum, and is some of the jesting here really compatible with that?

Anglian

Knowing what the bible said would require reading it.

5:1 Therefore be imitators of God as dear children.
5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.
5:3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints;
5:4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks.
5:5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Seems as though societies neuroses have no value for holiness.

rogerclemensfan · Jun 27, 2008

Umm- it's a good thing to have sexual desire for one's spouse...it only becomes a problem when a spouse begins to objectify the other...I hope when I strip for my husband he isn't just thinking about how holy I am....

No offense Shannon, but stripping for one's spouse emphatically is a lustful activity. The fact that you dichotomize sexual desire and holiness here proves that you know what you're doing is naughty, i.e. sinful.

(Apologies for making this personal.)

JoabAnias · Jun 27, 2008

Miss Shelby said:
Enlighten us isabella.

I think she just did.

ShannonMcCatholic · Jun 27, 2008

JoabAnias said:
What would you rather have, him lusting after you?

No- I want him to think what an amazing, woman he's married to--with the body which God has given to her (he'd leave God out of it, being an aetheist) --all stretch marked and scarred from the children she's borne and nursed....I want him tofeel like I am the woman who is not just financial manager, cook, maid, picker of children's boogers, launderer....but also the human fulfiller of all of his desires on each and every level. I want him to hold me as his sacred lover. That I am entirely and only his body and soul.

It is not sinful to have fun in bed with your spouse---it is not sinful to have fun with foreplay---it is not sinful to do things on purpose to arouse your spouse with the intention of having sex.

God wired men to be visually stimulated--take it up with Him....and don't give me all the other crapola--I wear skirts and dresses, and try to look feminine while still expressing myself...I got a 118 on the stupid 1930's housewife quiz, for crying outloud... but I also want him to be totally and I mean ,totally, satisfied and fulfilled physically with the things we do for each other that are mutually acceptable to both of us.

LOL! of course we're NFPing so it's kind of a moot point- since with my cycles that gives us about 3 days a cycle to not make a baby. I gotta make those 3 days count, man.

Joab--of course unsaid -in this thread, at least--IIRC you are a recovering sex addict. I applaud you on your recovery--but be well aware of the zealouness of the convert phenomena....most likely between lust and missionary only position there is the holy middle ground, where spouses can and do feel physical desire for one another in a non-disordered way.

ShannonMcCatholic · Jun 27, 2008

rogerclemensfan said:
No offense Shannon, but stripping for one's spouse emphatically is a lustful activity. The fact that you dichotomize sexual desire and holiness here proves that you know what you're doing is naughty, i.e. sinful.

(Apologies for making this personal.)

Whatev...I'm gonna go on having fun with my spouse in bed. I've already gone the stoic Catholic route and all that did was ensure that my husband wanted to have sex with me about as much as having a route canal...so we'll do what works for us--and you do what works for you, alrighty?

I already explained in my post to Joab what I meant...it's not a dichotomy--at all.

Y'all really need to go read at The Marriage Bed Forums....of course you'd probably be scandalised that Christians are actually having good sex.

ShannonMcCatholic · Jun 27, 2008

JoabAnias said:
Off topic,

The old Lust versus Purity struggle yet again.

Its pronounced; Har-dan not Hard-ON

You really should look him up, there is allot to learn from him.

Back on topic.

#1 maybe you weren't here before I had my whole crisis of faith...but why would you assume that I haven't read him? I have taught a class from time to time based on some of his writings, and have read a large precentage of his writing. Whatever you've read--double or triple it--that's probably closer to the realm of orthodox Catholic writings that I've read.

#2 If you are going to go through the trouble of bolding a word-- you might really want to spell it properly. a lot. It's two words, one "l".

rogerclemensfan · Jun 27, 2008

ShannonMcCatholic said:
I've already gone the stoic Catholic route and all that did was ensure that my husband wanted to have sex with me about as much as having a route canal

Is that necessarily such a bad thing?

Better to have infrequent sex than to profane the marriage bed with lust.

Y'all really need to go read at The Marriage Bed Forums....of course you'd probably be scandalised that Christians are actually having good sex.

I've been to that website, and I was saddened (though not surprised) by how badly it misses the mark. It is very legalistic and fails to recognize that one can lust over his/her spouse (PJP warned against this). Activities which that site promotes, such as phone sex and gratifying oneself in front of one's partner, are simply lascivious and totally unacceptable from a Catholic standpoint. The site would receive Papal condemnation were such monstrosities even worthy of consideration.

As a male, I can say with some certainty that he who lusts after his partner will lust after other women as well. Lust, after all, is a vice, and vices don't discriminate. For this reason and others, it is a mistake to try to induce rabid desire in one's spouse.

JoabAnias · Jun 27, 2008

ShannonMcCatholic said:
#1 maybe you weren't here before I had my whole crisis of faith...but why would you assume that I haven't read him? I have taught a class from time to time based on some of his writings, and have read a large precentage of his writing. Whatever you've read--double or triple it--that's probably closer to the realm of orthodox Catholic writings that I've read.

#2 If you are going to go through the trouble of bolding a word-- you might really want to spell it properly. a lot. It's two words, one "l".

Just thinking about you.

The priest giving the Homily on EWTN right now is talking of Fr. Hardon. I didn't hear him make one unbiblical reference to his good name.

Crisis of faith is only a beginning toward conversion. The key is to repent and keep repenting.

I didn't know I had to be a prolific reader to be given wisdom.

Even I know stripping is not kosher.

Maybe comprehension is the issue or what is read. Hmmm.

By the way, thanks for correcting my usage of "a lot". You might want to get a dictionary though to understand why spell check doesn't pick up on usuage:
al·lot ( -l t ) tr.v. al·lot·ted, al·lot·ting, al·lots
1. To parcel out; distribute or apportion: allotting land to homesteaders; allot blame.
2. To assign as a portion; allocate: allotted 20 minutes to each speaker.

JoabAnias · Jun 27, 2008

ShannonMcCatholic said:
No- I want him to think what an amazing, woman he's married to--with the body which God has given to her (he'd leave God out of it, being an aetheist) --all stretch marked and scarred from the children she's borne and nursed....I want him tofeel like I am the woman who is not just financial manager, cook, maid, picker of children's boogers, launderer....but also the human fulfiller of all of his desires on each and every level. I want him to hold me as his sacred lover. That I am entirely and only his body and soul.

It is not sinful to have fun in bed with your spouse---it is not sinful to have fun with foreplay---it is not sinful to do things on purpose to arouse your spouse with the intention of having sex.

God wired men to be visually stimulated--take it up with Him....and don't give me all the other crapola--I wear skirts and dresses, and try to look feminine while still expressing myself...I got a 118 on the stupid 1930's housewife quiz, for crying outloud... but I also want him to be totally and I mean ,totally, satisfied and fulfilled physically with the things we do for each other that are mutually acceptable to both of us.

LOL! of course we're NFPing so it's kind of a moot point- since with my cycles that gives us about 3 days a cycle to not make a baby. I gotta make those 3 days count, man.

Joab--of course unsaid -in this thread, at least--IIRC you are a recovering sex addict. I applaud you on your recovery--but be well aware of the zealouness of the convert phenomena....most likely between lust and missionary only position there is the holy middle ground, where spouses can and do feel physical desire for one another in a non-disordered way.

Sounds like your a great wife. Not sure why so much comment about sin, is there guilt or are you just taking this discussion personally?

Not sure what your trying to say either. Are you telling me you married an atheist or that you think Lust is good?

My point was about Lust.

I take Lust to be a serious issue because I know the harm it can do. I don't think everyone has the problem but when one sees Hard-on from a priests name I do begin to wonder about purity. Wouldn't you?

JoabAnias · Jun 27, 2008

ShannonMcCatholic said:
Y'all really need to go read at The Marriage Bed Forums....of course you'd probably be scandalised that Christians are actually having good sex.

Is that where your getting your advice?

OnTheWay · Jun 28, 2008

Here's two questions, obviously it doesn't have to be answered on the board, but maybe worth a private thought:

If the Pope declared tomorrow that oral sex, anal sex, or anything outside of vaginal intercourse was sinful would you actually stop doing these things?

If the Pope declared tomorrow that oral sex, anal sex, and a number of other activities outside of vaginal intercourse were okay would you actually start doing them?

People are into what they're into, and dislike what they dislike. Given that most of us don't spend all our waking hours just trying to come up with the basics of life we're going to have time to explore these things. You can argue till you're blue in the face, some people are going to want to try everything in the Kama Sutra and others are going to want to bring in the Amish sheet. You know there are people out there that consider themselves Christian swingers and think the whole marriage bed thing covers wife swaps and group sex. Then there are the ones that think all sex is automatically difrty and to be avoided. Most people fall somewhere in between. Seems to me you might as well just leave it that way. I seriously doubt anyone comes away from these little things saying, "hey hun we have to start/stop having oral sex because of what so and so said on CF."

Anglian · Jun 28, 2008

Dear OnThe Way,

Your views are, of course, very fashionable in the West, and no doubt elsewhere, but they are not what is taught by the Catholic Church. The fact that we, as individuals, might have some trouble disciplining ourselves is further proof, were any needed, of the wisdom of having a Magisterium. We can all elect to follow those parts of the teachings of the Church which suit us, but that does not hide the fact that it is disobedience.

A love that confuses itself with lust manifests itself by a tendency to regard one's wife, or husband, as a sexual being rather than as a fellow human being made in the image of God. A good guide in this area is that if you would be ashamed to confess it, you should probably not be doing it.

Peace,

Anglian

JoabAnias · Jun 28, 2008

I agree people will do what they will.

Thats why we have a Church Magisterium full of resources for guidence should they so desire. One such orthodox example below.

Father John A. Hardon, S.J. Archives

Moral Theology
Moral Theology Table of Contents and Introduction

Moral Theology Chapter IX: Sex and Chastity

isabella1 · Jun 28, 2008

JoabAnias said:
I agree people will do what they will.

Thats why we have a Church Magisterium full of resources for guidence should they so desire. One such orthodox example below.

Father John A. Hardon, S.J. Archives

Moral Theology
Moral Theology Table of Contents and Introduction

Moral Theology Chapter IX: Sex and Chastity

Thats some really good reading with the morning coffee.

ShannonMcCatholic · Jun 28, 2008

rogerclemensfan said:
Is that necessarily such a bad thing?

Better to have infrequent sex than to profane the marriage bed with lust.

.

Yeahh-- okay.... for some reason you can't get past the fact that desiring one's spouse body and soul- isn't lust. God created us with sexual desire, God created men to be visiually stimulated, God created me with my curvy parts that for reasons unfathomable to me are stimulating to look at for my husband...God created sex as the means through which sacramental grace is imparted into marriage. We are body and soul--to imply that body is evil or inherently disordered is akin to heresy.

I dunno, I am not afraid of my sexuality--I am not afraid of my husband's sexuality--we do our nearly three weeks of NFP no sex without effort-but rather with sadness and with a separateness which begins to creep in.

ShannonMcCatholic · Jun 28, 2008

Anglian said:
Dear OnThe Way,

Your views are, of course, very fashionable in the West, and no doubt elsewhere, but they are not what is taught by the Catholic Church. The fact that we, as individuals, might have some trouble disciplining ourselves is further proof, were any needed, of the wisdom of having a Magisterium. We can all elect to follow those parts of the teachings of the Church which suit us, but that does not hide the fact that it is disobedience.

A love that confuses itself with lust manifests itself by a tendency to regard one's wife, or husband, as a sexual being rather than as a fellow human being made in the image of God. A good guide in this area is that if you would be ashamed to confess it, you should probably not be doing it.

Peace,

Anglian

Confess what exactly? If one needs to confess anything they're doing with their spouse--then they oughtn't be doing it.

But you hit upon something important--which I had earlier touched upon--the objectification of the other spouse--that will yield to disaster, as it crushes the soul to be objectified. But sex is not the only means where a man might objectify his wife--only, in my opinion, the most destructive-because sex involves body and soul...form and matter.

I wholeheartedly believe that wholeness is the path to holiness, and that having healthy views of sex and sexuality will be a path to holiness. If we are afraid of sex or contain some sense of shame about sex or when searching ourselves equate lust with sex--well that is a good indicator that we have more healing to do.

Seriously- do none of you have the requisite big Catholic families?? Sex is not always gonna be long slow sensual soul touching....but no matter, it still imparts sacramental grace even when it's just a few minutes between children knocking on the door.

Anglian · Jun 28, 2008

Dear Shannon,
I would agree with what you write here

ShannonMcCatholic said:
Confess what exactly? If one needs to confess anything they're doing with their spouse--then they oughtn't be doing it.

my point was that if one was tempted to do something one might feel the need to confess, that would be a trigger not to!

But you hit upon something important--which I had earlier touched upon--the objectification of the other spouse--that will yield to disaster, as it crushes the soul to be objectified. But sex is not the only means where a man might objectify his wife--only, in my opinion, the most destructive-because sex involves body and soul...form and matter.

Again, we are in agreement; any objectification of the other is wrong, but what you say about sexual relations is so right.

Seriously- do none of you have the requisite big Catholic families?? Sex is not always gonna be long slow sensual soul touching....but no matter, it still imparts sacramental grace even when it's just a few minutes between children knocking on the door.

Five surviving children is relatively small by traditional standards - and it might well have been more but for the most natural form of family planning known to married couples - the knock, followed by: 'Mommy, I don't feel well', and the 'It's your turn this time!'

Peace,

Anglian

ShannonMcCatholic · Jun 28, 2008

JoabAnias said:
Sounds like your a great wife. Not sure why so much comment about sin, is there guilt or are you just taking this discussion personally?

Not sure what your trying to say either. Are you telling me you married an atheist or that you think Lust is good?

My point was about Lust.

I take Lust to be a serious issue because I know the harm it can do. I don't think everyone has the problem but when one sees Hard-on from a priests name I do begin to wonder about purity. Wouldn't you?

I know what your point was--

and for you know- one of the greatest things we can learn to do is laugh at ourselves, I think it helps us to endure--but of course this place is all full of "no one has suffered as much as have I" spiritual pride. I think you're just miffed because I made a funny about your darling's name...it struck me as funny in this context---that doesn't mean I have issues with this particular capital sin. I hope that you would take as serious any of the capital sins and rail against McDonald's and the gluttonfest that has yielded to a gluttony filled people...see the governing virtue of temperance is a great thing for which to strive...it helps one to not be consumed by the desires of the flesh, but rather to live in moderation-the holy middle ground. My guess is that healthy sexual expression is a matter of temperance--and that to deny all pysical attraction, desire for one's spouse is just as disordered as lust. Why? BEcause it lacks in temperance.

I don't think sex is "dirty". I don't think sex is shameful. I don't think that the fact that we are from birth to death sexual beings is something against which we must fight--but rather understand, accept, and learn to live out in a full, but temperate way.

The reason I care about this at all--is that people come on here all zealous live out their Catholicness and that sin being what it is-- people are so very drawn by ideas and seeming ideals which lack in temperance--that are very polarised...and that is destructive. Religious addiction is not the goal- we can't replace our past addictions with religious addiction--but rather must strive toward wholeness, and living our faith out in a healthy, non-compensatory way--seeking the holy middle ground.

JoabAnias · Jun 28, 2008

ShannonMcCatholic said:
I know what your point was--

and for you know- one of the greatest things we can learn to do is laugh at ourselves, I think it helps us to endure--but of course this place is all full of "no one has suffered as much as have I" spiritual pride. I think you're just miffed because I made a funny about your darling's name...it struck me as funny in this context---that doesn't mean I have issues with this particular capital sin. I hope that you would take as serious any of the capital sins and rail against McDonald's and the gluttonfest that has yielded to a gluttony filled people...see the governing virtue of temperance is a great thing for which to strive...it helps one to not be consumed by the desires of the flesh, but rather to live in moderation-the holy middle ground. My guess is that healthy sexual expression is a matter of temperance--and that to deny all pysical attraction, desire for one's spouse is just as disordered as lust. Why? BEcause it lacks in temperance.

I don't think sex is "dirty". I don't think sex is shameful. I don't think that the fact that we are from birth to death sexual beings is something against which we must fight--but rather understand, accept, and learn to live out in a full, but temperate way.

The reason I care about this at all--is that people come on here all zealous live out their Catholicness and that sin being what it is-- people are so very drawn by ideas and seeming ideals which lack in temperance--that are very polarised...and that is destructive. Religious addiction is not the goal- we can't replace our past addictions with religious addiction--but rather must strive toward wholeness, and living our faith out in a healthy, non-compensatory way--seeking the holy middle ground.

Good point about temperance. I hope this hasn't disturbed you to much.

FWIW, making light of addiction you know nothing about or religion as an addiction is not balanced in and of itself. Would you say a religious is a religion addict. Its a way to salvation, and that way is following Jesus and his word and Church. Would you say the preaching of a Paul or Fr. Corapi is intemperate? Don't mistake truth for zeal.

We aren't talking about scrupulosity here either but about moral theology.

If you would like to talk about addiction then please start a new thread and we can do that too. I have a BA in clinical counseling and co-existing addictions and disorders as well as psycho-biology, have worked in rehab and crisis intervention centers so discussing that dynamic with you would be interesting for me. But I digress. As I said this is about the morality of sodomy yet I cannot deny sensing you are disturbed by something.

Try a little righteousness instead and there will be no need for defensiveness. And by all means if your conscience is troubled by something said here, examine it and then take it to the Lord in contemplative prayer and or your spiritual counsel. Your not judged by any human being sister and as far as I know, no one here is your enemy.

If there is anything more personal you would like to discuss privately in PM that would be my pleasure as well.

Peace and God bless.

WarriorAngel · Jun 28, 2008

devotedwifey said:
when looking up the term "sodomy" from dictionary.com i get:

1.anal or oral copulation with a member of the opposite sex. 2.copulation with a member of the same sex. 3. beastiality (def. 4).

now i cant give you scriptures because i dont know the numbers and stuff (still learning) but do know it is talked about quite a few times in the bible. What i want to know is having Oral or anal sex with your husband is wrong according to the bible, and/or catholic belief.

if theres a topic on this already point me in that direction please.

I believe JPll said oral is ok...but not going to climax.

sodomy

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