so what's with this notion part ll

[BabyChristian22]

Being homosexual does not mean you are evil. It simply means you have to deal with a different battle than many because you cannot marry someone that you find attractive or desire to be with carnally. There are many good homosexual people that live a very pious and Christian existence and go to Heaven.

The part I put in bold is actually a temptation to sin that everyone has to deal with. Heterosexuals have to wait until marriage before having sex to obey Church teaching. When and if we marry we have to resist sexual attraction to all the sexually attractive people that are not our spouse, and we have to do this for as long as we are married which is till one or the other spouse dies. Nuns, priests, and brothers take a vow of celibacy, deacons have to live a celibate life after their spouse dies. So, homosexuals aren't alone in being called to resist sexual temptation.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

The part I put in bold is actually a temptation to sin that everyone has to deal with. Heterosexuals have to wait until marriage before having sex to obey Church teaching. When and if we marry we have to resist sexual attraction to all the sexually attractive people that are not our spouse, and we have to do this for as long as we are married which is till one or the other spouse dies. Nuns, priests, and brothers take a vow of celibacy, deacons have to live a celibate life after their spouse dies. So, homosexuals aren't alone in being called to resist sexual temptation.

Good point. Almost all of us have lust, a desire for sex. It is part of puberty and for young adults it can be one of the strongest desires. Top that with pornography which is HUGE in society and we have greater temptations and amount of temptations.

As a parent with two kids starting puberty, this is a huge concern. Teaching them about Cardinal sins and Virtues is very important. Teaching them about Family and why pornography and premarital sex are evil is very important.

If we ever expect society to change and heal from all these evils and wounds then we must start at home, with ourself, and our family.

 

[benedictaoo]

The point, Bene, is these tendencies toward evil were not created by God as FS claimed. We are all fallen, that is why we need God. We weren't created to live like this, that is why Jesus came; to heal us and lift us to Himself. God did not create us fallen, and sin is not a thing, it is a lack of something. I think you missed FS's point.

I know that... but men weren't created to live with their G/F either.

Do you get my point? SSA is not listed as a separate wound of sin that we have due to the fall of Adam.

It falls under lust. a disorder we all have.

 

[isshinwhat]

I know that... but men weren't created to live with their G/F either.

Do you get my point? SSA is not listed as a separate wound of sin that we have due to the fall of Adam.

It falls under lust. a disorder we all have.

Agreed, though objectively the gravity is different because of the object of the lust. Heterosexual sex is not itself disordered, whereas homosexual acts are. My beef is with FS who's statements run counter to Catholic teaching.

 

[benedictaoo]

okay and my beef is with this mindset that the sexual sins of the homosexual is somehow more grave then the sins of a straight guy who is so sexually depraved he may as well be gay.

We're so focused on and worried about what gays do, we forget that straight ppl are sinking to some serious lows as far as their own sexuality is concerned.

Erotic perversion is erotic perversion. a distortment of the act is a distortment of the act... I really fail to see when its that bad between straights, how it is in any way different from the perverseness of gay sex?

 

[Needing_Grace]

Being homosexual does not mean you are evil. It simply means you have to deal with a different battle than many because you cannot marry someone that you find attractive or desire to be with carnally. There are many good homosexual people that live a very pious and Christian existence and go to Heaven.

To me, this in an abstraction as I've never heard of one who successfully made heaven.

It scares the daylights out of me, too.

 

[isshinwhat]

okay and my beef is with this mindset that the sexual sins of the homosexual is somehow more grave then the sins of a straight guy who is so sexually depraved he may as well be gay.

We're so focused on and worried about what gays do, we forget that straight ppl are sinking to some serious lows as far as their own sexuality is concerned.

Erotic perversion is erotic perversion. a distortment of the act is a distortment of the act... I really fail to see when its that bad between straights, how it is in any way different from the perverseness of gay sex?

Objectively, in the case of homosexuality the disorder is directed toward an intrinsic moral evil, whereas that is not the case in simple fornication between a heterosexual couple; heterosexual sex is not, in and of itself, morally evil.

That being said, none of us are God, and speaking of the objective gravity of a sin says nothing of the culpability of a particular individual. He alone judges, not me.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

To me, this in an abstraction as I've never heard of one who successfully made heaven.

It scares the daylights out of me, too.

I have gotten to know you some and as you know, you are hard on yourself. Not sure why? It may be that there are some things you cannot share? Regardless, that is your personal business and I respect that. Normally I would suggest to be wary of scrupulosity but I do not think that applies. Just a feeling...

Do what I plan on doing after Lent, pray the Divine Mercy Indulgence.

You may know it already...

If not, here: The Indulgence

And: The Decree of Indulgence

I am intending this for myself this year.

 

[Needing_Grace]

okay and my beef is with this mindset that the sexual sins of the homosexual is somehow more grave then the sins of a straight guy who is so sexually depraved he may as well be gay.

We're so focused on and worried about what gays do, we forget that straight ppl are sinking to some serious lows as far as their own sexuality is concerned.

Erotic perversion is erotic perversion. a distortment of the act is a distortment of the act... I really fail to see when its that bad between straights, how it is in any way different from the perverseness of gay sex?

Maybe it's a "my sins aren't as bad as THEIR sins *points finger*" kinda thing.

Honestly, SSA is such a pain in the tookus (no intention of a double entendre, but there it is anyway) that I'd rather have never been conceived (existed -- no existence=no danger of hell=no problem) that have to continue living with the stigma and the burden that it entails. I've prayed the prayer of the leper, "Lord, if Thou wilst, Thou canst make me clean." Unlike the leper, I got back, "I will NOT! For you have been handed over to a depraved mind." Not literally, but Romans 1 comes to mind every time.

Since one must be 100% pure of heart and mind in order to make heaven, seems I'm gonna burn either way. Even if I die in the state of grace, if I have even the slighest hint of a subatomic particle of disordered desire, it's crispy critters for me for a very, very, very ,very, very, very, very, very, very, very long time.

I have an appointment with my pastor tomorrow about this. I'm going to tell him of this exact desire to be erased completely from history because of what SSA represents to me. It seems so simple to say: "Y'all homasexials have a different cross than us married folk, so quit yer belly achin'. We have our problems, too." Okay, granted, I don't have snot nosed kids running around costing me money. But then again, I don't' get to have kids who could be snot-nosed, running around and costing me money. And granted, I don't have a (insert expletive here) for a wife. I don't get to have a wife to be a (insert expletive here). I just have me...and my cats...and my couple of friends. That's it.

Understand this, folks, it's not about the sex. It's about the other things that one loses that you marrieds take for granted. The sense of family and belonging. The experience of loving and being loved and included. All that, for me, is now a memory... Enjoy it, folks, y'all are truly blessed.

 

[Needing_Grace]

I have gotten to know you some and as you know, you are hard on yourself.

Yah, I know. I don't know how to be any other way.

Not sure why? It may be that there are some things you cannot share? Regardless, that is your personal business and I respect that. Normally I would suggest to be wary of scrupulosity but I do not think that applies. Just a feeling...

I wish I knew. I have a lot of baggage in terms of involvement in a pretty nasty cultic group, but I realize that I seem to have seen some nasty tendencies in myself that this group seemed to have been modeled by leaders in this group that I seem to have gotten permission to be this way. I've described it before, very harsh, controlling. It's very difficult to trust Someone you see as wanting to torture you forever and ever.

Do what I plan on doing after Lent, pray the Divine Mercy Indulgence.

You may know it already...

If not, here: The Indulgence

And: The Decree of Indulgence

I am intending this for myself this year.

I know about the Divine Mercy.

My problem is that Romans 1 keeps popping up. Romans 1 is the one and only passage in scripture that describes the desire itself as being a punishment for idolatry. I can't get around that.

I can get my sins forgiven by the priest in Confession, but can he absolve me of the thing that made God so angry with me that I am being punished for it with a disordered desire? Can he remove the sin from me to the point that I am no longer punished for it?

 

[isshinwhat]

All things are possible through Jesus Christ who loves you dearly. He came to lift you out of the mess that we are all born into.

Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you, says the LORD, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. 12 Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you. 13 You will seek me and find me; when you seek me with all your heart,

 

[JacktheCatholic]

When it comes to lustful desires we all can pray to a Patron Saint. How about St. Agnes (Chastity)?

I know about the Divine Mercy.

My problem is that Romans 1 keeps popping up. Romans 1 is the one and only passage in scripture that describes the desire itself as being a punishment for idolatry. I can't get around that.

I can get my sins forgiven by the priest in Confession, but can he absolve me of the thing that made God so angry with me that I am being punished for it with a disordered desire? Can he remove the sin from me to the point that I am no longer punished for it?

Romans 1... men and women giving in to wicked things and not loving God.

Yes, these things remove Sanctifying Grace from us because they are Grave. But, as I mentioned with Divine Mercy, anything can be forgiven if one seeks God's love and the rewards of Heaven and is willing to change. I have been there and still have struggles.

So, you have free will to choose. The World. Or... Heaven. The world will lead to Hell for it pushes God away.

St. Thomas Acquinas wrote:

Reply to Objection 4. Penance is to deplore past sins, and, "while deploring them," not to commit again, either by act or by intention, those which we have to deplore. Because a man is a mocker and not a penitent, who, "while doing penance," does what he repents having done, or intends to do again what he did before, or even commits actually the same or another kind of sin. But if a man sin afterwards either by act or intention, this does not destroy the fact that his former penance was real, because the reality of a former act is never destroyed by a subsequent contrary act: for even as he truly ran who afterwards sits, so he truly repented who subsequently sins.

Reply to Objection 6. According to Augustine (De vera et falsa Poenitentia, the authorship of which is unknown), "it is evident that sins displease God exceedingly, for He is always ready to destroy them, lest what He created should perish, and what He loved be lost," viz. by despair.

On Penance: SUMMA THEOLOGICA: The sacrament of Penance (Tertia Pars, Q. 84)

Wherefore to say that in this life there is any sin of which one cannot repent, is erroneous, first, because this would destroy free-will, secondly, because this would be derogatory to the power of grace, whereby the heart of any sinner whatsoever can be moved to repent, according to Proverbs 21:1: "The heart of the king is in the hand of the Lord: whithersoever He will He shall turn it."

It is also erroneous to say that any sin cannot be pardoned through true Penance. First, because this is contrary to Divine mercy, of which it is written (Joel 2:13) that God is "gracious and merciful, patient, and rich in mercy, and ready to repent of the evil"; for, in a manner, God would be overcome by man, if man wished a sin to be blotted out, which God were unwilling to blot out. Secondly, because this would be derogatory to the power of Christ's Passion, through which Penance produces its effect, as do the other sacraments, since it is written (1 John 2:2): "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."

Therefore we must say simply that, in this life, every sin can be blotted out by true Penance.

more on penance: SUMMA THEOLOGICA: The effect of Penance, as regards the pardon of mortal sin (Tertia Pars, Q. 86)

Sins are pardoned through Penance, as stated above (86, 1). But there can be no remission of sins except through the infusion of grace. Wherefore it follows that grace is infused into man through Penance. Now all the gratuitous virtues flow from grace, even as all the powers result from the essence of the soul; as stated in I-II, 110, 4, ad 1. Therefore all the virtues are restored through Penance.

and: SUMMA THEOLOGICA: The recovery of virtue by means of Penance (Tertia Pars, Q. 89)



If we truly desire Heaven and love God because he wants us to have eternity in bliss with Him and so we want to change to His will, we have penance and that can save even the worst of us if we seek forgiveness and change. If we seek this then God will give us grace to help us establish virtues and over time conquer our inequities.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

For some readingon Romans 1 and having to do with SSA, this is pretty detailed but old: CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Romans (Chrysostom)

 

[WarriorAngel]

Maybe it's a "my sins aren't as bad as THEIR sins *points finger*" kinda thing.

Honestly, SSA is such a pain in the tookus (no intention of a double entendre, but there it is anyway) that I'd rather have never been conceived (existed -- no existence=no danger of hell=no problem) that have to continue living with the stigma and the burden that it entails. I've prayed the prayer of the leper, "Lord, if Thou wilst, Thou canst make me clean." Unlike the leper, I got back, "I will NOT! For you have been handed over to a depraved mind." Not literally, but Romans 1 comes to mind every time.

Dont forget satan can interfere and want to cause despair.

God doesnt give us over if we are repentant in heart....and want Him. He has given you the very graces to seek His help - did He not?
He is working on you, but satan is too.

If satan can get you to despair or give up hope - he is winning the battle... thats all he wants too. To win out your hope from you.

Since one must be 100% pure of heart and mind in order to make heaven, seems I'm gonna burn either way. Even if I die in the state of grace, if I have even the slighest hint of a subatomic particle of disordered desire, it's crispy critters for me for a very, very, very ,very, very, very, very, very, very, very long time.

Trust Jesus.
Say 'Jesus, I trust in You.' and really do.
IF anything, if you were not in perfect grace - and had venial sin, you purge only and if you are 'running the race' to win as Paul said - you are likely going to Heaven...even if you need to get rid of the venial sins...thru cleaning them off.

Souls in purgatory prefer being there than on earth. Its a surreal pain/ecstasy thing going on. Ecstasy to be close to God - pain in the slight separation.

I have an appointment with my pastor tomorrow about this. I'm going to tell him of this exact desire to be erased completely from history because of what SSA represents to me. It seems so simple to say: "Y'all homasexials have a different cross than us married folk, so quit yer belly achin'. We have our problems, too." Okay, granted, I don't have snot nosed kids running around costing me money. But then again, I don't' get to have kids who could be snot-nosed, running around and costing me money. And granted, I don't have a (insert expletive here) for a wife. I don't get to have a wife to be a (insert expletive here). I just have me...and my cats...and my couple of friends. That's it.

Understand this, folks, it's not about the sex. It's about the other things that one loses that you marrieds take for granted. The sense of family and belonging. The experience of loving and being loved and included. All that, for me, is now a memory... Enjoy it, folks, y'all are truly blessed.

I love you. Granted its long distance - but you are a brother in Christ and if there is one thing i can share -
the love of God is better - 1000 times better than you could possibly conceive.

There a Catholic group that could help you too and lots of new friends to boot.

Courage Home Page

In Courage you will get to know men and women who share in your concerns, meeting them online through our Listservs, or in person at Chapter Meetings, Conferences, Days of Recollection, and Retreats.
Come see what we are about. Browse our pages. Get to know our community. You'll be glad you did!


From our website you will learn about same sex attraction and chastity. By developing an interior life of chastity, which is the universal call to all Christians, one can move beyond the confines of the homosexual identity to a more complete one in Christ.

 

[benedictaoo]

Maybe it's a "my sins aren't as bad as THEIR sins *points finger*" kinda thing.

I really think its more because two gay men or two lesbian women walking down the street is obvious, we all know what they do behind closed doors as where straight ppl can hide their preferences.

The point is we ALL are some pretty depraved puppies now days when it comes to sex. We're all going to hell over it, not just the gays.

 

[Needing_Grace]

I really think its more because two gay men or two lesbian women walking down the street is obvious, we all know what they do behind closed doors as where straight ppl can hide their preferences.

Not always. I can walk down the street with the man who would be my partner, if it were permissible, and no one would know the difference. We're just two dudes walking down the street.

The point is we ALL are some pretty depraved puppies now days when it comes to sex. We're all going to hell over it, not just the gays.

Well, let's hope we don't end up going to hell, hmm?

 

[benedictaoo]

well someone on this board said once, it was about us not having to look at them... they're PO because they on TV shows and they aren't in the closet anymore- some Catholics, I guess only care about not having to look at them. Its not about the sex and them going to hell... its about us pretending.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Not always. I can walk down the street with the man who would be my partner, if it were permissible, and no one would know the difference. We're just two dudes walking down the street.

Where I worked last there was a guy I know who is gay and living with a gay guy and if he did not tell you he is gay then you would probably never guess. He was raised in a Catholic family and his dad made them go to church every week. I think he has five brothers too.

I also worked with another guy at a security company and the only reason people knew he was gay was because a girl who sat by him would transfer calls from his boyfriend, whom he named with a girls name to seem to be straight. I went to lunch with him two or three times a week and when he found out people knew he was gay, he found another job. Poor guy had a heart attack shortly after that and was not even 30 yet.

But, I have also had friends that were "flaming" gay.

 

[Needing_Grace]

Where I worked last there was a guy I know who is gay and living with a gay guy and if he did not tell you he is gay then you would probably never guess. He was raised in a Catholic family and his dad made them go to church every week. I think he has five brothers too.

I also worked with another guy at a security company and the only reason people knew he was gay was because a girl who sat by him would transfer calls from his boyfriend, whom he named with a girls name to seem to be straight. I went to lunch with him two or three times a week and when he found out people knew he was gay, he found another job. Poor guy had a heart attack shortly after that and was not even 30 yet.

But, I have also had friends that were "flaming" gay.

I don't make any special effort to hide or express the gayness, I just don't do affect (voice, mannerisms, etc.) and behave as...I do.

I know that a lot of Christians think I'm grody because I have the gayness. I know a lot of Christians think God thinks I'm grody because I have the gayness. I think God put the gayness on me as a punishment but I don't know what I did to deserve it. That's one of the biggest barriers for me.

Coming from the background I do, it's difficult to see God as wanting to be with one rather than God wanting to judge and torture someone. Just telling me "God loves you" is, again, an abstraction. It's a concept that I cannot wrap my brain around because it goes back to the grody thing that is inside of me, the gayness, which, I read in scripture, is something that I was given up to. Can you say that I've internalized it? Oh, yeah.

BTW, I tried to read that sermon that you linked to, but large blocks of text with no white space are not easy on my eyes. When I have a good hour or two (its really long!), I'm going to have to have my iMac read it to me.

 

[WarriorAngel]

well someone on this board said once, it was about us not having to look at them... they're PO because they on TV shows and they aren't in the closet anymore- some Catholics, I guess only care about not having to look at them. Its not about the sex and them going to hell... its about us pretending.

yah i said it and stand by my disgust they are putting gay relationships all over the media with not only undertones to the relationships - but overtly showing us the relationships and the acts and the intimacy.

I am fed up with it... its a scandal that it is in almost everything now. If the society is force fed long enough - they ought to be desensitized by it - is exactly what they are manipulating us with.

Just like how most of the youth today are totally desensitized to violence and violence has increased while consciences have decreased.
THAT is exactly what they are doing now - to make it 'seem' acceptable and UNLOVING if you dont like it ...

IF you wear ppl down long enough - it becomes less taboo - like abortion, like birth control, like violence, and they even have teen shows [dramas] showing insolence to parents and how parents dont get it...

The entertainment world is the enemy once it sets the course to blurring the lines.

TELL me that isnt true - tell me ppl dont become desensitized to violence - or even gossip if they watch drama or soaps long enough. Or they dont have a craving for more delicious wickedness. More more more more.

And all of these things change how we perceive sin and that sin is not nearly as bad as it really is. And then we have the groups saying 'God forgives' but they are abusing His forgiveness.

The lines have been blurred - and as we can see - being gay is now enjoying its openness. Ppl are trying it now as never before. What was once taboo is now acceptable and if a sin is acceptable to peers it becomes more tangible and accessible and the numbers of those wanting to be gay has increased - where in the past one could ignore such a temptation and focus on being attracted to the opposite.

And if you cannot see this is what is happening, i feel for you. I have my eyes wide open. This is exactly what is happening and satan is emboldened and delighted every time he wins a battle thru these outlets.