so what's with this notion part ll

[WarriorAngel]

NOT, IF we change, THEN He will love us.

John 8:11
Who said: No man, Lord. And Jesus said: Neither will I condemn thee. Go, and now sin no more.



John 5:14
Afterwards, Jesus findeth him in the temple, and saith to him: Behold thou art made whole: sin no more, lest some worse thing happen to thee.

 

[WarriorAngel]

OBJECTION!

Assumes facts not in evidence.

Are you suggesting the teachings of the Church are in error?

OSAS - is against Catholic teaching. WE can lose salvation.
That has been the teachings since forever.

IF we are OVER confident but go out and sin, as Hebrews 6 suggests we can, we make a mockery of the Lord.

Are you denying the TEACHINGS of the Church?
Yes or no?

 

[WarriorAngel]

'Lord, I beseech thee, give me these sufferings: they belong to me: I have deserved them in punishment for my sins.’

~ Emmerich

At the day of judgment, when the most hidden things will be manifested, we shall see the share we have had in the torments endured by the Son of God; we shall see how far we have caused them by the sins we so frequently commit, and which are, in fact, a species of consent which we give to, and a participation in, the tortures which were inflicted on Jesus by his cruel enemies. If, alas! we reflected seriously on this, we should repeat with much greater fervour the words which we find so often in prayer-books: ‘Lord, grant that I may die, rather than ever wilfully offend thee again by sin.’

~ Emmerich

Visions of a Stigmatist - and her sentiments certainly make us all look rather awkward.

This is Church approved...

Emmerich is on the canonization process for these visions and her stigmata.

WAS she fear mongering when she was entrusted with these visions?

Was Christ fear mongering when He showed her His Passion in this way and she was illuminated with these truths?

Mock her, see if i care.

 

[Needing_Grace]

John 8:11
Who said: No man, Lord. And Jesus said: Neither will I condemn thee. Go, and now sin no more.



John 5:14
Afterwards, Jesus findeth him in the temple, and saith to him: Behold thou art made whole: sin no more, lest some worse thing happen to thee.

A not on style, stop using so many hard returns. It makes your posts unnecessarily long.

As to substance, God's LOVE for us in not contingent. It is constant. Even those in hell are loved by God, they have chosen to reject that love.

While on earth, we have a chance to repent, serve and love God and so live with Him forever. Even at the moment of death, God's love is such that He will receive us if we repent of our sins.

Don't confuse the fact of God's love with salvation.

BTW, salvation is not a one-sided proposition (you do it alone, which is what you seem to be implying), but God helps us through His means of grace and calls us to Himself continually. Our job is to say yes and obey as best we can, asking God for the grace to do it. I hear that He does provide that help if we ask for it and trust Him.

But trust requires that we abandon fear.

Have you ever heard of Jansenism?

 

[Needing_Grace]

Are you suggesting the teachings of the Church are in error?

No, I am saying that YOU are ASSUMING facts not in evidence.

OSAS - is against Catholic teaching. WE can lose salvation.
That has been the teachings since forever.

IF we are OVER confident but go out and sin, as Hebrews 6 suggests we can, we make a mockery of the Lord.

Are you denying the TEACHINGS of the Church?
Yes or no?

Where has anyone implied anything to the contrary?

Or are you confusing the love of God with salvation? God's love is not contingent, salvation is.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Thank you. Here's the passage:

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

1 John 4:

[16] And we have known, and have believed the charity, which God hath to us. God is charity: and he that abideth in charity, abideth in God, and God in him. [17] In this is the charity of God perfected with us, that we may have confidence in the day of judgment: because as he is, we also are in this world. [18] Fear is not in charity: but perfect charity casteth out fear, because fear hath pain. And he that feareth, is not perfected in charity. [19] Let us therefore love God, because God first hath loved us. [20] If any man say, I love God, and hateth his brother; he is a liar. For he that loveth not his brother, whom he seeth, how can he love God, whom he seeth not?

 

[benedictaoo]

2 John 1:8
Look to yourselves, that you lose not the things which you have wrought: but that you may receive a full reward.


Matthew 10:42
And whosoever shall give to drink to one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, amen I say to you, he shall not lose his reward.

Matthew 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt lose its savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is good for nothing any more but to be cast out, and to be trodden on by men.


1 Corinthians 15:2
By which also you are saved, if you hold fast after what manner I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain.


Matthew 10:39
He that findeth his life, shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for me, shall find it.


Luke 9:25
For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, and cast away himself?


Hebrews 6:

http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=65&ch=6&l=5#x [4] For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5] Have moreover tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6] And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God, and making him a mockery.




1 Corinthians 9:24
Know you not that they that run in the race, all run indeed, but one receiveth the prize? So run that you may obtain.




NOT a fan of OSAS.

Okay, A) where did NG or myself mention OSAS? NO, really man, where did we?

and B) are you really saying God's love is conditional?

are you really finding fault with what I posted? because once again, I'm only repeating Fr. Emmerich Vogt, O.P. from EWTN THE SPIRITUALITY OF THE 12 STEPS- CD

and his series that I attended at my own parish that EWTN made a Lenten series of, and I bought the CD's... the 12 steps of Spirituality, or something like that. I'm only repeating what he said.

So once again, you are trying to tell me I don't know what I'm sayin but I actually do. You are disagreeing with me just to do it.

Its Catholic teaching that God loves us, WA.

 

[WarriorAngel]

No, I am saying that YOU are ASSUMING facts not in evidence.

Where has anyone implied anything to the contrary?

Or are you confusing the love of God with salvation? God's love is not contingent, salvation is.

To suggest someone must stay within the worldly parameters of some study - 'being afraid' - without context of the scriptures and to castigate the Saints writings she saw through the Lord and mock those who show them, suggests a lot without assumption, but evidence.

God's love was not in question - but what the Saint wrote was we will see what we did to cause the pain and suffering of the Lord in His Passion.
WE will see our own part in it... and she said let me die rather than sin again - because she saw the brutality of which He - the Innocent - received for our sins.

Let us not take for granted the punches, the beatings, the spitting, the whippings, the nails, the crown, the humility and the atrocious brutality of which He received.

WE are reminded - we all took part in that - and the more we sin, the more we take credit thereof.

 

[benedictaoo]

1 John 4:

[16] And we have known, and have believed the charity, which God hath to us. God is charity: and he that abideth in charity, abideth in God, and God in him. [17] In this is the charity of God perfected with us, that we may have confidence in the day of judgment: because as he is, we also are in this world. [18] Fear is not in charity: but perfect charity casteth out fear, because fear hath pain. And he that feareth, is not perfected in charity. [19] Let us therefore love God, because God first hath loved us. [20] If any man say, I love God, and hateth his brother; he is a liar. For he that loveth not his brother, whom he seeth, how can he love God, whom he seeth not?

Come on now.. talk yourself of the ledge... Don't jump.

neither NG or myself is saying anything outrageous that you need to disagree with.

God is love and loves us all, why do you think he wants to save the poor sinners? why do you think He calls them "poor" sinners and not dreaded hated sinners?

He loves us and wants for all of us to be saved. The only ones I know who argue with this are the Calvin people.

 

[benedictaoo]

So WA, is it your belief that God hates us and this hate and fear of Him sending us to hell should be what convinces us to love Him and follow His laws? And when we do, then He will love us and take us to heaven with Him, after we burn in purgatory for awhile, that is?

 

[Needing_Grace]

To suggest someone must stay within the worldly parameters of some study - 'being afraid' - without context of the scriptures and to castigate the Saints writings she saw through the Lord and mock those who show them, suggests a lot without assumption, but evidence.

God's love was not in question - but what the Saint wrote was we will see what we did to cause the pain and suffering of the Lord in His Passion.
WE will see our own part in it... and she said let me die rather than sin again - because she saw the brutality of which He - the Innocent - received for our sins.

Let us not take for granted the punches, the beatings, the spitting, the whippings, the nails, the crown, the humility and the atrocious brutality of which He received.

WE are reminded - we all took part in that - and the more we sin, the more we take credit thereof.

Actually, the reason God suffered those things was exactly because He loves us. As we are the body of Christ, we too will suffer. It's all part of one and the same thing.

A desire to not sin out of horror of what sin cost God is an wonderful thing to have. It's a sign of perfect contrition, if I understand perfect contrition correctly. A person like this can receive many indulgences and graces. Would that God would grant us all this grace.

 

[Antigone]

Perhaps a clarification is in order.

I don't believe that all conservatives are arrogant, rude and self-righteous (some are...and may God help those of us who are sometimes arrogant, rude and self-righteous, conservative or not). If I left that impression, I'm sorry.

There was a study the other day that claimed that people with a higher intelligence and education tended to lean towards the left more easily.

The Daily Mail basically turned this into a headline that read ZOMG RIGHTWINGERS ARE STUPID.

As a result, instead of a constructive analysis of how these conclusions were reached, the comments section (rather hilariously) turned into the digital equivalent of monkeys flinging feces at eachother and making faces.

Which is pretty much the status quo for the Daily Mail comments section, but still. Approach the subject in the wrong way and you'll find a lot of stereotypes suddenly coming true.

 

[benedictaoo]

To suggest someone must stay within the worldly parameters of some study - 'being afraid' -

He didn't suggest that though.

He was just sayin that we should never fear God because God is not out to get us.

The issue is, you want to save ppl with fear and not love.

 

[Needing_Grace]

He loves us and wants for all of us to be saved. The only ones I know who argue with this are the Calvin people.

In Catholicism, it's called Jansenism. It's a vile heresy that destroys hope in the love and mercy of God.

 

[benedictaoo]

In Catholicism, it's called Jansenism. It's a vile heresy that destroys hope in the love and mercy of God.

yep and Jansenism is still with us in many conservative circles of Catholicism.

that's where the term "I'm a recovering Catholic" comes from. It comes from false teaching.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Come on now.. talk yourself of the ledge... Don't jump.

neither NG or myself is saying anything outrageous that you need to disagree with.

God is love and loves us all, why do you think he wants to save the poor sinners? why do you think He calls them "poor" sinners and not dreaded hated sinners?

He loves us and wants for all of us to be saved. The only ones I know who argue with this are the Calvin people.

Why did you attack me via the Saints writings?

If it not about the message, what is it?

No one said anything about God's love. You did. Out of context to what the Saint was sayng about our judgment, you said we are not to fear such a thing because of God's love.

That is too close to OSAS...because evidently, Hebrews 6 disagrees.

and perfect love casts out all fear. When we come to really know and embrace God's perfect love for us, we no longer fear Him because we know He loves us and we can trust that.

and God loves us just how we are right now.. no requirement to be this or that- He loves us no string attached. Yes He loves us too much to leave us in a bad way and will try to convince us to change, but He loves us just the way we are. NOT, IF we change, THEN He will love us.

Taking HIS love out of context - which is not the issue. Everyone knows God loves - without restraint.
But that does NOT mean everyone is going to Heaven.
That does not mean we do not fear our judgment or His Justice.

That does not mean - we will not see our part in His Passion and crucifixion.

IT does not mean those who understand we must HAVE FULL RESTRAINT how we treat our brothers and sisters in Christ - including and not limited to gossiping and smearing their good name... will automatically be given salvation.

IF Christ said - sin no more - HE meant and means - SIN NO MORE.

AND that is the point - how we relate to God's graces.

AND it is in fact 'IF' we change we merit the rewards of Heaven.
If we do not NEED TO change - then why did Christ state we must sin no more?

WE must fear and tremble to work out our salvation.

 

[Needing_Grace]

Why did you attack me via the Saints writings?

If it not about the message, what is it?

No one said anything about God's love. You did. Out of context to what the Saint was sayng about our judgment, you said we are not to fear such a thing because of God's love.

That is too close to OSAS...because evidently, Hebrews 6 disagrees.



Taking HIS love out of context - which is not the issue. Everyone knows God loves - without restraint.
But that does NOT mean everyone is going to Heaven.
That does not mean we do not fear our judgment or His Justice.

That does not mean - we will not see our part in His Passion and crucifixion.

IT does not mean those who understand we must HAVE FULL RESTRAINT how we treat our brothers and sisters in Christ - including and not limited to gossiping and smearing their good name... will automatically be given salvation.

IF Christ said - sin no more - HE meant and means - SIN NO MORE.

AND that is the point - how we relate to God's graces.

AND it is in fact 'IF' we change we merit the rewards of Heaven.
If we do not NEED TO change - then why did Christ state we must sin no more?

WE must fear and tremble to work out our salvation.

Please stop hitting the return key so many times between lines. Thanks.

Of course, we must fear the possibility of hell, but that's a starting point, not the whole picture. It's sort of like the protestant error of failing to recognize that justification by faith is a starting point, not the whole picture. Fear leads to attrition and it's enough to get one's sins forgiven in confession.

One can grow in holiness and love of God. This is what is meant by faith working in love. I don't see faith working in fear being taught by the Church. Yes, we must fear the possibility that we can sin and lose God, but something tells me that fear alone isn't the best way. A person who loves God so much that they they don't want to offend him and damage their relationship in God isn't motivated by fear but love.

BTW, you got it backwards, we must work out our salvation in fear and trembling. See above on how that's supposed to work. Your way seems to say that we must live in a constant state of anxiety and terror that we're going to burn in hell. Where's the confidence in the love and mercy of God?

And let's not forget that it's called the Gospel, the Good News. With all this talk of fear and nothing else, it seems more like the Bad News.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Please stop hitting the return key so many times between lines. Thanks.

When i post
i am
writing
in paragraph form
so it seems like a
whole paragraph
is written before
i am hitting the
next
paragraph

even if it
comes out
more like a sentence
which CC does the same.

Lets not start nit picking
or it would lose
the point of the
message.

Oops - did i hit the return key a lot? My bad.

Of course, we must fear the possibility of hell, but that's a starting point, not the whole picture. It's sort of like the protestant error of failing to recognize that justification by faith is a starting point, not the whole picture. Fear leads to attrition and it's enough to get one's sins forgiven in confession.

One can grow in holiness and love of God. This is what is meant by faith working in love. I don't see faith working in fear being taught by the Church. Yes, we must fear the possibility that we can sin and lose God, but something tells me that fear alone isn't the best way. A person who loves God so much that they they don't want to offend him and damage their relationship in God isn't motivated by fear but love.

BTW, you got it backwards, we must work out our salvation in fear and trembling. See above on how that's supposed to work. Your way seems to say that we must live in a constant state of anxiety and terror that we're going to burn in hell. Where's the confidence in the love and mercy of God?

And let's not forget that it's called the Gospel, the Good News. With all this talk of fear and nothing else, it seems more like the Bad News.

Look - the Saint has a great lesson in her writing this for us.

IF we KNOW we will see the harsh brutal pounding we took part in - in His Passion - we will refrain from sin.
It was that simple.

AND when we think and ponder on how hard He took such a beating for us personally - we will TRY to refrain from sin.

That's all the message was about.
Argue about it all you like - or rather take time to think about it - work it out on your own.

Peace.

 

[Needing_Grace]

When i post
i am
writing
in paragraph form
so it seems like a
whole paragraph
is written before
i am hitting the
next
paragraph

even if it
comes out
more like a sentence
which CC does the same.

Lets not start nit picking
or it would lose
the point of the
message.

Oops - did i hit the return key a lot? My bad.

Snippy this morning, are we?

I did say please.

Look - the Saint has a great lesson in her writing this for us.

IF we KNOW we will see the harsh brutal pounding we took part in - in His Passion - we will refrain from sin.
It was that simple.

AND when we think and ponder on how hard He took such a beating for us personally - we will TRY to refrain from sin.

That's all the message was about.
Argue about it all you like - or rather take time to think about it - work it out on your own.

Peace.

If that's it, okay. I prefer to try to be motivated by love rather than fear.

As an aside, I tend to stick to general revelation (i.e., Scripture and Tradition) when it comes to by daily walk. There's more than enough there for me to chew on.

 

[benedictaoo]

Why did you attack me via the Saints writings?

Not attacking you via anything, let alone the Saints... a better question is why do you use the Saint's writing as a weapon?

You have to get over this complex you have, nobody is attacking anyone. I just want to know why you are disagreeing with us when we said nothing wrong?

can you just answer that? Please, just answer that- no long post with quotes that literally have nothing to do with this.