so what's with this notion part ll

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WarriorAngel

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I believe the point is that Catholic gay people are not struggling with "same sex attraction," they are struggling with temptations away from chastity and at the same time the idea they are NEVER supposed to have the same kind of intimate family relationships that straight people take for granted.


Its either a heavy cross they ought to offer up daily - or they learn to be God centered and saintly and forget the SSA exists - or they learn to reprogram their heart and minds to find the opposite sex attractive.

All are possible - but it depends in which route you want to take.
If you do take a route at all.

For nothing is impossible with God.

Maybe it takes 1 - 7 - or even 16 or maybe 20 years for a prayer to be answered....
 
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benedictaoo

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I can't speak for WA. I can only speak for myself. I notice that you didn't quote what she allegedly said. Since you have accused me of being a bigot when I know I'm not you are probably misrepresenting WA as well. I think you wouldn't see us even talking about homosexuality if people weren't using it to try to change the sacrament of marriage and then trying to force us to accept that change. As a Catholic, I don't appreciate anyone trying to mess with God's sacraments.

Why do you want them all to remain that way? What about the ones who can and do change? Do you have a problem with them? My belief is they don't sin by struggling with SSA, but I don't say they should give up the struggle and just stay that way when it is a disordered attraction. With God all things are possible, but without God nothing is possible. I know I have to continue to struggle against my tendencies to sin, so why should they be any different? In Heaven there won't be any sexual temptation nor any tendency to sin, so there is a positive end if we keep up the struggle against temptations to sin here in this world.

No one has denied that homosexuality has existed in ancient times. Most people are familiar with the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in the book of Genesis.

Just because someone doesn't see things exactly the way you do doesn't make them a bigot. The people you keep accusing of being bigots have told you numerous times that they don't hate the sinner but only the sin. Why can't you just accept that? It reminds me of how some Protestants will keep accusing us of worshiping the Blessed Virgin Mary in place of God no matter how many times we tell them that we don't. Also, none of the ones who you call a self-righteous bigot has ever denied being a sinner. A self-righteous person is one who denies that they sin. This is ironic since the ones who actually deny that they sin are the gay activists who you defend.

I haven't seen anyone in OBOB say that the attraction by itself is a mortal sin. Quoting from the CCC is better than shooting from the hip and being wrong. I and others have had posts that contained no more and no less than a direct quote from the CCC, and you still had a problem with the post. If you don't have a problem with the CCC you wouldn't have a problem with people quoting from it. But apparently you don't like it when people quote from the CCC which is odd for someone who says they believe in it. If someone quotes from the CCC they probably know what the quote says.

Every now and again, I will try to have some sort of conversation with you where we listen to each other and have empathy for each other, ect and so on, but you can't do that.

When ever I think you may perhaps be able to do that- I post and you turn it into a debate match.

No... I made myself clear. You know what I said, what my position is and its not against the Church.

There is nothing left to say, nothing left to debate here. You obviously just want to argue, not talk. I do not trust that you are really being honest. I really can't be "set up"... I'm a little smart then that and in the world where we only have our words to use, I can handle myself quite well.

You say you do not have any problems with gay people except for how they are trying to force us to accept gay marriage and I agree with that and that pretty much should end it, but no... you go on adding to it and you contradict yourself.

You have said one thing, then turned around and made arguments and points that imply that you aren't really satisfied with a homosexual or lesbian living celibate not pushing gay marriage on us. You say also, in addition, they have to stop having a SSA. well that is your opinion and not something the Church has said they have to do.

and this opinion is what feed the fighting between Christian and the gay community/activists.

Look, this is just too ridiculous at this point. I really think there is something seriously wrong with quite a few posters on this board... The conversations are just tedious to have to read... when they need not be! and half the time certain posters, they don't even make sense.

I have a lot of trouble reading WA posts and that is why I don't read it... I try to but its hard to because they don't make sense a lot of the time, She will post stuff that doesn't really relate to what we are even talking about and I'm not the only person who has noticed this.

and the only reason why I'm telling you all this is because, I don't know if any has noticed, but I'm not pulling any punches anymore. I'm not playing any games here and this is exactly how I would be in real life. I am 100% serious and real, I can't deal with these farces of a conversations anymore. They lower my IQ every time I deal with...

anyway. just one thing...

1) I could care less what your personal beliefs and opinions about this are, because, no offense, not to be mean, but who are you? You are not God... I do not care what you or WA have to say about it.

Gay and Lesbian people do not have to deny they have a SSA, they only have to be celibate or marry a person of the opposite sex.

Just because its not what God ordered and ordained sex and marriage to be does not mean they have to pray it away or neuter themselves or mentally and emotionally castrate themselves.

They are under no requirements from the Church to pretend they aren't gay, become A sexual or act like they are straight, or hide themselves in a closet.

Get over it... Homosexuals and Lesbians exist in this world. For reasons no one knows and I mean NO ONE knows so don't try to say you do, but God allowed this to be part of the human condition and experience. What his reasons are, no one knows.

You need to figure out what you need to do in this instance. What is it that we are called to do? Help one another, bare one another's burdens.

WA feels that entails trying to make them straight and gosh darn with God's help they can do it! Yes, they can! Or with God's help and grace, they can totally have no sexuality at all and live a hermits life, holy as all get out...

I think that is absolutely ridiculous.. to say their SSA is so sinful a thing they have to burn it out of them but what ever...

I feel our calling is to just expect this and support them in them finding a way to live with and live on the straight and narrow...

you know, like us straight folks...

and I have no expectation what so ever that this post is even going to be read let alone will reach anyone in getting them to understand where it is I am coming from.
 
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benedictaoo,

Calm down. No one here is saying that they hate gays. Like I said, what I have a problem with is when they try to force us to accept things like so-called "gay marriage". But you keep turning this into a "they hate gays, they're homophobes" rant. Just because we don't like how gay activists are trying to force their beliefs on us doesn't make us bigots.
 
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benedictaoo

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Baby, I am calm, just not paying any more games. I'm cutting through the BS and getting to the heart of the matter.

Get it through to your head... I never said you hate gays or that you are a biggot. At most I said I really, truly think WA is really bothered by them and she sees them in an extreme way. I think gays bother her. Its what I think. If I'm wrong then I am, but its what I think based on her own posts.

what you keep saying is the only problem you have is with them forcing the Church to accept gay marrige. I agree... but you go on and on and on and on making points that no one disgrees with. You for what ever reason- you know why you do it... you want to keep putting emphasis on SSA not being orderd by God- WE KNOW!!!!!!!

Gezum Petes, WE KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

that is what you are guilty doing, trying to convince us of what we already know and do not disagree with.

How about you try to tell me something that I don't know... Baby??

So there is really nothing left here for you to say but you gotta put dem 2 cents in anyway, don't you?

So to re cap for the billionth time, NO! gays do NOT need to deny , rid themselves, do away with a SSA. They DO NOT!!! have try to cahnge it, pray it away, go to brain washing mind control seminars... NONE of that is what the HAVE to do to be a person who is NOT in sin.

If they choose to do this, want to do this then that is their choice but they are not required to.

capice? so if you agree... then what is there to argue with me about? I'll tell you what... NOTHING! So just move it on along Baby.

All they are required to do is resist the temptation to sin, like we ALL have to do.

When I got married, I had to forsake any and all others... not stop being heterosexual.

WA HAS said, (read all of her posts- do not say you didn't see where she said- she freaking said it over and over) that they have to stop being attracted to the same sex by becomming Christ centered, God centerd, by putting Christ, by ditching the old man, etc.

No, they do not have to do this to be holy or close to God or a Christ centered person- they just have to resist the temptation to sin. Like we do... the Church has not said they have to get rid of a SSA... that's only what she said. what she thinks.

Guess what? They can't get rid of it even if they wanted to. and believe me, many wish they could in order to make all the people who have such an issue with it, happy.

and for those who said they have gotten rid of it- good for them but there is no requirement for any one else to have to do that and there is no scientific proof any one actually has other past brain washing themselves to think it.

So... when WA says this is what thy HAVE to do in order to be pleasing in God's eyes and to go to heaven... that pretty is discriminating against them in so much as she is saying God does not like homosexuals.

which brings to me say yet again, being homosexual does not mean you push same sex marriage on the Church or that you are having sexual relations with a person of the same sex or that, that is what you do. It only and just means you are a person who has a same sex attraction.

No sin in that... disordered, as in, not what God ordered up for sex and marriage when he created them both? yeah- but not a sin.

and do they have to change? no... just not have sex.

so there you go. I hope when you meet a person and they say they are gay, your mind does not jump to, oh, he' must hate the Church, he's an enemy of Christ, he is immoral, etc.

I hope you will be like, oh nice to meet you... :)

Now if they want to "get into" with you if they are having sex, then I hope you will handle like you would with a heterosexual who revealed the same.
 
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benedictaoo

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Since you have accused me of being a bigot when I know I'm not you are probably misrepresenting WA as well.

A) where did I accuse you?

B) watch this... WA, do you think homosexuals and Lesbians need to get rid of a SSA? Or can they remain gay and lesbian and just be celibate? Does God want them to remain homosexual?

Or do they have to work with Christ and he will de-sexualize them or do they have to join Courage so they can be made straight?

Please tell Baby what you think because I am not going and pulling up quotes... like I have time for that...
 
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benedictaoo

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He came to call sinners - not kill them off.

Go and sin no more

and that would be them choosing celibacy and resisting the temptation to commit a sexual act!

Go and sin no more would not be they have to stop being attracted to the same sex, because THEY CAN'T STOP!!!!! any more then you can stop being straight.

Where do you get off saying they have to stop being attracted to what they are when you don't have to stop. Why aren't you required to de sexualize and only be attracted to your husband? because its impossible.

You are married but that surly does not stop you from saying Orlando Bloom is good looking- you are attached to those outside your marriage... its not a sin is it?

its not a sin for them either.
 
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benedictaoo

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In Heaven we do not marry and we are not sexual beings,.
Period.

SO if gays want to do the Lord's will, they will be non sexual - rather that than go to gehenna.


Marriage is a sacrament on the other hand - and are to produce more souls for Heaven.

Those are the choices.
Chastity or fruitfulness.

Ask if you do not comprehend.

wow, okay... this is what WA says... (and its really offensive, BTW) but where does the CHURCH say the same?

Oh... she doesn't. that is an opinion of yours that sounds really biggoted, IMO. Sorry, but that is what I honest to God, feel...

The only thing you have going for you is that you never said this is what the Church teaches, its only your opinion and as messed up as it is, you are entitled to it, free to have it, if that is what you want...
 
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benedictaoo

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Its either a heavy cross they ought to offer up daily - or they learn to be God centered and saintly and forget the SSA exists - or they learn to reprogram their heart and minds to find the opposite sex attractive.

All are possible - but it depends in which route you want to take.
If you do take a route at all.

For nothing is impossible with God.

Maybe it takes 1 - 7 - or even 16 or maybe 20 years for a prayer to be answered....

Even when Needing Grace and FranciscanSpirit both said, that's total BS... you still think you know better then what they do? even when this is not what the Church says they have to do???
 
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Needing_Grace

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A) where did I accuse you?

B) watch this... WA, do you think homosexuals and Lesbians need to get rid of a SSA? Or can they remain gay and lesbian and just be celibate? Does God want them to remain homosexual?

Or do they have to work with Christ and he will de-sexualize them or do they have to join Courage so they can be made straight?

Please tell Baby what you think because I am not going and pulling up quotes... like I have time for that...

Benedicta, I love your compassion in this area, but Courage isn't about changing orientation. Courage's goals are listed below and orientation change isn't on the list.

Courage, in fact, the only ministry approved by the Church itself, towards helping gays live in accord with the Church's teachings. I've known about them for years and came into the Church through a Courage chaplain.

My beef is the insistence on reading of the 12-Steps of AA at each meeting. To me, it implies that a person with SSA is the same as a rock-bottom drunk, and that's a bit of an insult. The Twleve Steps of Courage, they change only a few words (alcoholics to homosexuality in the first step and "other alcoholics" reads simply, "others" or "other homosexuals."). While some of the steps are part of Catholic practice (examination of conscience, confession, reparation, etc.), the notion that I'm a dude that likes other dudes means that my life is unmanageable is pretty silly (Step One).

On the other hand I LOVE LOVE LOVE the Five Goals of Courage, which basically can be used as the basis upon which to build a plan of life. I'll post them here for everyone's benefit.


  1. To Live chaste lives in accordance with the Roman Catholic Church's teaching on human sexuality.
  2. To dedicate ones life to Christ through service to others, spiritual reading, prayer, meditation, individual spiritual direction, frequent attendance at Mass, and the frequent reception of the sacraments of Reconciliation and Holy Eucharist.
  3. To foster a spirit of fellowship in which all may share thoughts and experiences, and so ensure that no one will have to face their problems alone.
  4. To be mindful of the truth that chaste friendships are not only possible but necessary in chaste Christian living and in doing so provide encouragement to one another in forming and sustaining them.
  5. Live lives that may serve as good examples to others.
Now who could argue with those goals!? :preach:
 
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benedictaoo

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where is the one that says, to de sexualize and be of no gender and live like you are already in the after life?

This is only important to me because how WA views this is why so many gays have self hate, can't accept God's love for them and why they are depressed and why they want to take their own lives.

Its not right...

what you are is an inspiration but she feels what you do is not good enough- you have to go a step further and have no attractions at all. that's BS.
 
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where is the one that says, to de sexualize and be of no gender and live like you are already in the after life?

This is only important to me because how WA views this is why so many gays have self hate, can't accept God's love for them and why they are depressed and why they want to take their own lives.

Its not right...

what you are is an inspiration but she feels what you do is not good enough- you have to go a step further and have no attractions at all. that's BS.
What are you talking about? Is there a specific question you have?
 
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benedictaoo

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Baby- you stand by this? a YES or a NO. No other words are necessary or wanted.
In Heaven we do not marry and we are not sexual beings,.
Period.

SO if gays want to do the Lord's will, they will be non sexual - rather that than go to gehenna.


Marriage is a sacrament on the other hand - and are to produce more souls for Heaven.

Those are the choices.
Chastity or fruitfulness.

Ask if you do not comprehend.

where in tarnations does the Church teach this hog wash?
 
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Baby- you stand by this? a YES or a NO. No other words are necessary or wanted.


where in tarnations does the Church teach this hog wash?
Jesus, the Head of the Catholic Church said, "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." - Matthew 22:30
 
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benedictaoo

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Now who could argue with those goals!? :preach:

Warrior Angel...

because this is what she says... and I am trying to clam it down but this is the sickest thing i think I ever read here.

SO if gays want to do the Lord's will, they will be non sexual - rather that than go to gehenna.

So if they don't become non sexual, which she claims is the Lord's will, they go to hell... who does she think she is to say this to gay people.

and we wonder why gays hate us? I hate us too...
 
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Warrior Angel...

because this is what she says... and I am trying to clam it down but this is the sickest thing i think I ever read here.



So if they don't become non sexual, which she claims is the Lord's will, they go to hell... who does she think she is to say this to gay people.

and we wonder why gays hate us? I hate us too...
I thought you said that you agree with the Catholic Church teaching that people with SSA are called to celibacy? Now you are calling anyone who believes this a bigot.
 
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benedictaoo

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Jesus, the Head of the Catholic Church said, "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." - Matthew 22:30

Get out of here... this does not say gays have to be non sexual or go to hell.

when we ALL die, all of us, we will have no use for attractions because there is no marriage in heaven.

But where does the Church, the CHURCH! in an offical statement- TEACH that a gay, its the Lord will, for them to live like they are already in heaven with no sexuilty at all?

where does the Church say that? and like its useless to argue with the Prots when they pull the bible says so game... I will not do the same with you. Are you a Prot? No. So who do you think you are to tare a page out of their play book?

You have no authority to quote the bible out of context and apply it to your OWN ideas... that are warped, BTW, in case you didn't know.

and guess what? You just admitted you were not being honest... nothing new there.

So you do feel celibacy is not good enough, they have to deny a SSA or burn in hell.

so that would be a yes, you do agree with WA... that makes two really messed up views that are in no way catholic.. thank God.
 
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benedictaoo

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I thought you said that you agree with the Catholic Church teaching that people with SSA are called to celibacy? Now you are calling anyone who believes this a bigot.

I'm asking, do you have a problem with intelligence? or are you just trying to have ppl think I take a position that I do not take.

these people reading are not dumb- they know what I said- You can't 'show me up" or make me look dumb. I'm always a step ahead.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt and no, you are not here to have a honest discussion.

You are here to push your own agenda, ideas off as Church teaching.
 
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Get out of here... this does not say gays have to be non sexual or go to hell.
The Catholic Church teaches homosexual activity is a sin, therefore people with SSA are called to celibacy not to sexual activity unless they can change their sexual orientation and marry the opposite sex. If you call me a bigot you are also calling Jesus and the Catholic Church a bigot since this is the teaching of the Catholic Church.
 
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benedictaoo

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Okay, this is my last post. I will ask the powers that be to close this dumb thread.

Like that Hurricane Katrina Army, John Wayne looking Dude said, " Let's not get stuck on stupid..." and we, we are seriously stuck on stupid.

Look, here it is, Baby- I can not take you seriously. I just don't think you're intentions are pure. You just want to play games and try to entrap me in my own posts to make me look bad....and like, yeah, like that's going to happen....

WA- I'm really concerned for you because the prism you see things through... is, well, heterodox. You're views on hell, your obsession with punishment and justice, cloud your vision... It is a form of Jansenism.

when you said you spank your children to give them a fear of God and hell... that is when you really lost me.

When you speak about the immigration problem, welfare, Obama, the Muslims, gays, etc, you speak in the same fashion a bigot would.

I wish nothing but the best for you and I pray God will give you some much needed perspective.
 
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benedictaoo

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The Catholic Church teaches homosexual activity is a sin, therefore people with SSA are called to celibacy not to sexual activity unless they can change their sexual orientation and marry the opposite sex. If you call me a bigot you are also calling Jesus and the Catholic Church a bigot since this is the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Sure Baby, okay. what ever you say... If you say I said that- then that is what I said... (roll eyes). lol.
 
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