So what is SIN, and who determines it?

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Messianic Jewboy

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Marc, No law is mentioned as given or broken thus far.
There had to be law.

How did Abel and Caan know about offerings to G-d?

The reason for posting these texts, is to show what is written about sin in order to investigate if breaking a Law is implied.
Are you saying that G-d just let man run rampad and then decided to destroy all the earth? That there were no 'rules' to live according to His standards?

That's like raising your children with no rules and then when they become so bad you punish them.

People knew in the texts you posted what sin was.

Our G-d isn't that way, to impose punishment without cause and especially to know why.

Marc
 
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Cribstyl

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There had to be law.

How did Abel and Caan know about offerings to G-d?

Seems to me that you're reasoning far away what is written.




Gen 4:1And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
Gen 4:2And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
Gen 4:3And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
Gen 4:4And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
Gen 4:5But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
Gen 4:6And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Gen 4:8And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

In Gen 4:3 Moses wrote; "In the process of time it came to pass.." does not imply periodic offerings, but rather a singular offering that happened in the past.

If Cain and Abel were commanded to give a certain sacrifice there is no evidence of it. They did not give the same offering. The fact that God chose one over the other proves that He did not command them of what to bring. God pointed out that Cain was angry because he did not give his best effort and sin was about to happen, rather than saying you sinned by not bringing the right sacrifice.

Are you saying that G-d just let man run rampad and then decided to destroy all the earth? That there were no 'rules' to live according to His standards?

That's like raising your children with no rules and then when they become so bad you punish them.

People knew in the texts you posted what sin was.

Our G-d isn't that way, to impose punishment without cause and especially to know why.

Marc
TBC
 
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Messianic Jewboy

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My point was how did they come up the idea to make offerings to G-d?

Did they come up with it on their own?

Or did someone tell them that was the 'protocol'?

They couldn't have got the idea out of nowhere?

God pointed out that Cain was angry because he did not give his best effort and sin was about to happen, rather than saying you sinned by not bringing the right sacrifice.


Right Cain didn't give his best effort but it's apparent that they both gave offerings. How did they know to give offerings unto G-d?

How did everyone know up to Exodus/Leviticus the 'protocol' so to speak?

“Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation

How did Noah know what righteousness was?

Then Noah built an altar to the LORD, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

How did Noah know to offer burnt offerings?

Marc
 
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Messianic Jewboy

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Why should we defend bogus arguments, text says we're not under the Law but does not mean we should sin?

Actually text doesn't say we are not under the law. Text says we are not under the written ordinances that were against us.

What was nailed to the tree?

Marc
 
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djconklin

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My point was how did they come up the idea to make offerings to G-d?

Did they come up with it on their own?

Or did someone tell them that was the 'protocol'?

They couldn't have got the idea out of nowhere?



Right Cain didn't give his best effort but it's apparent that they both gave offerings. How did they know to give offerings unto G-d?

How did everyone know up to Exodus/Leviticus the 'protocol' so to speak?

“Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation

How did Noah know what righteousness was?

Then Noah built an altar to the LORD, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

How did Noah know to offer burnt offerings?

Marc
Excellant questions!

Note that before Cain killed Abel God spoke to him and said that "sin lieth at the door"--and yet Cain didn't have to ask what is sin? They knew!
 
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Cribstyl

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Excellant questions!

Note that before Cain killed Abel God spoke to him and said that "sin lieth at the door"--and yet Cain didn't have to ask what is sin? They knew!

Knew what?
God was showing Cain exactly where unrighteousness (SIN)begins, but you want to teach "sin is transgression of God's Law" 1John 3:4

The truth is that, man was created in the image of God, perfect and Holy, Sin by definition is to miss that mark.

Some people go as far as to say, Cain sinned by not offering the right sacrifice.

So why did God not say sin was at your door when you brought the wrong sacrifice:confused: (igotQ2) But rather mentioned jelousy anger the crept up toward his brother?

In God's forknowlege the commandment that He gave to Adam that led to death was broken, to imply or say that God gave them ceromonial and other laws in unscriptual.
Some people's biblical reference say more than Moses has to say about creation and bible history.
Is the prophetic word concerning the seed of woman Gen3:15 surrounded by lack of information by Moses from God, then the bible does not contain all we need to know about God.
Did the serpent give Eve the fruit or did Eve pick the fruit?

When people teach by questions rather than what sayeth the word of God they establish themselve "more than a prophet or an apostle.



Questions does not always establish truth, this has lead to contradiction and division of churches.
 
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djconklin

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Knew what?
God was showing Cain exactly where unrighteousness (SIN)begins, but you want to teach "sin is transgression of God's Law" 1John 3:4

Unrighteousness is to trangress against the image of god in whose image we have been made. The 10C simply delineate in a concrete form where and when we have sinned.

In God's forknowlege the commandment that He gave to Adam that led to death was broken, to imply or say that God gave them ceromonial and other laws in unscriptual.

I have never met these creatures (some might say mythical) who say such things. Could you give me the name and address of one?

No one that I know of has ever argued that God gave Adam the ceremonial, food and theocratic laws in the Garden of Eden. Now, after they sinned a sacrifice had to be made--so God told them exactly what to do--now say, 20 years later Cain and Abrel go to make a sacrifice. Would it really be fair of God to condemn Cain for making the wrong sacrifice if he knew nothing about what constituted the correct sacrifice? Does it really make sense to say that sin entered the world when Adam and Eve sinned but no one knew that we should kill, steal, and rape etc. till the 10C were written on stone? If that was the case, then Cain wasn't quilty of anything. He did not sin and didn't have to worry that someone, somewhere would try to kill him. How did Pharoah and others know that it was wrong to have sexual relations whith Sarah? Was it ONLY because God told them in a dream? How come in over 100 languages the name of the seventh day fo the week is "sabbath"? Could it possibly be that they knew this at the time the languages were made at the Tower of Babel? If the Sabbath wasn't known till the 10C were written on stone, then how come they knew about it a month beforehand and didn't ask how to keep it and what it meant?
 
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djconklin

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Did the serpent give Eve the fruit or did Eve pick the fruit?

When people teach by questions rather than what sayeth the word of God they establish themselve "more than a prophet or an apostle.

Questions does not always establish truth, this has lead to contradiction and division of churches.

You asked a question--was that to create divisions to to find the truth?!? Christ would be asked a question and sometimes He would respond by asking question--are you saying that was trying to create divisions and wasn't seeking the truth? He was trying to get His listeners to think it through. It is called the Socratic method. It has nothing to do with "establish" one's self as being more than a prophet or an apostle--it's called following in the Master's footsteps vs the traditions and teachings of man.

On your question: we have no precise bibilical evidence either way. However, in Gen 3:6 is says "she took the fruit thereof." We would tend to assume that this means that she picked the fruit off the tree.
 
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Cribstyl

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Actually text doesn't say we are not under the law. Text says we are not under the written ordinances that were against us.

What was nailed to the tree?

Marc

The word of God is not subjected to your intepretation, it's subjected to your understanding:wave:

Rom 6:14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 6:15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

1Cr 9:21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=1Cr&c=14&v=34&version=KJV#34Gal 3:10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Gal 4:21Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Gal 5:18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


Which scripture do you want to argue against.

CRIB
 
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Cribstyl

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My point was how did they come up the idea to make offerings to G-d?

Did they come up with it on their own?

Or did someone tell them that was the 'protocol'?

They couldn't have got the idea out of nowhere?



Right Cain didn't give his best effort but it's apparent that they both gave offerings. How did they know to give offerings unto G-d?

How did everyone know up to Exodus/Leviticus the 'protocol' so to speak?

“Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation

How did Noah know what righteousness was?

Then Noah built an altar to the LORD, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

How did Noah know to offer burnt offerings?

Marc

Crafty questions does not render understanding of what is written. They give rise to false doctrines that contradict God's word through the prophets.

The bible records when man began to call on God.
Gen 4:26And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.


and also that Enoch was a preacher against ungodliness..(sin)
Jud 1:14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

We can read that God judged the world in Noah's day because of evil deeds rather than Sabbaths and ceromonies which many text conveys began with the Children of Israel, as "it is written" by Moses


CRIB
 
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PattyOfurniture

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The word of God is not subjected to your intepretation, it's subjected to your understanding:wave:

Rom 6:14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 6:15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

1Cr 9:21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

Gal 3:10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Gal 4:21Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Gal 5:18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


Which scripture do you want to argue against.

CRIB
I used to somehow miss(*coughs,nervous twitch) those verses. I'm glad i didn't ' go all the way and emasculate' myself...
 
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Cribstyl

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I used to somehow miss(*coughs,nervous twitch) those verses. I'm glad i didn't ' go all the way and emasculate' myself...

Praise God for understanding....... A lot of us get preached to, but we wont hear with our heart and digest. (we're too busy trying to teach):preach:
We need God's word desperately that we may not easily sin against Him.


God bless

CRIB
 
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Josephcanuck

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online Baptists are attacking everything under the sun from other Christians to Spiritualist groups. Jews, Moslems, gays etc..You name it.
According to these guys everyone is going to hell.
Who defines sin? Do we or does God? How much of the old laws are applicable today?
Because of the restraints of the forum i cannot post a link but if you google baptists for brownback you will find them. They are located at Wordpress.
The problem I have with groups like this is that there is clear support for them. These folks like the Fred Phelps Baptists are spewing hate with every breath and no one does anything (or so it seems) to try and stop the regurgitated mess. I am a Baptist but I feel like the original and my voice is out there in the wilderness not being heard. We all get tainted when folks like these get to have too much say in things. I don't profess to tolerate gay people so I am not going to feed you a line here but I also do not tolerate people assigning themselves the role of the Almighty as these have done.
 
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PattyOfurniture

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online Baptists are attacking everything under the sun from other Christians to Spiritualist groups. Jews, Moslems, gays etc..You name it.
According to these guys everyone is going to hell.
Who defines sin? Do we or does God? How much of the old laws are applicable today?
Because of the restraints of the forum i cannot post a link but if you google baptists for brownback you will find them. They are located at Wordpress.
The problem I have with groups like this is that there is clear support for them. These folks like the Fred Phelps Baptists are spewing hate with every breath and no one does anything (or so it seems) to try and stop the regurgitated mess. I am a Baptist but I feel like the original and my voice is out there in the wilderness not being heard. We all get tainted when folks like these get to have too much say in things. I don't profess to tolerate gay people so I am not going to feed you a line here but I also do not tolerate people assigning themselves the role of the Almighty as these have done.
Fred Phelps.is not exactly your Garden-variety Baptist I'm of the opinion Today we need someone somewhere between that big lovable knucklehead Fred Phelps and Joel Osteen......someone like perhaps Jesus Christ?....lol
 
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TheCheat1

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Now since I have no problem seeing sin (and its consequences) as God and His scriptures and the law shows it to me. However, having said that I will put out some questions to see if anyone has a different line of thought on it:

1) How is something judged/demarcated as sin?


By God.


-Who decides what is right and wrong?

God.

-Who has the right to decide what is right and wrong for everybody to do?

God.

-If a new technology creates a issue not addressed directly such internet downloading of copyrighted music and movies, what decides if it is wrong morally and a sin?

God. He didn't leave any doors open. Stealing is stealing-- always.

-Are there anything else other than the Bible that define for us what God says is righteousness and what is sin?
2) What are the basic definitions of sin given in the Bible?

Disobedience of God.

3) Was there sin before God spoke the Ten Commandments to the Israelites on Mt. Sinai?

Yes, Adam and Eve, remember?

4)Can the Holy Spirit go against what God's law of love as defined in the the Ten Commandments?

No, the Holy Spirit is God. God can't sin.

5) What are the consequences of sin?

Death-- both the second and first-- the lake of fire is the second death.

6) Why is sin, or unrighteousness, bad or evil, and how are we cleansed of sin.

Sin is evil because it is contrary to God, and God is good. We are cleansed of sin only if we believe in Jesus Christ, God's sacrifice to save us from eternal damnation.

7) If sin causes us to stumble or fall do we need to be cleansed again?


There is no condemnation in Christ Jesus. When a believer sins, he sins unintentionally, for it is contrary to his new nature to sin. There is no need to be re-saved or whatever it is you would refer to that as. He who endures to the end will be saved.
 
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